Transport Package

strassenwolf

dowlingm wrote:

Strassenwolf - that's "An Lar" approach. If you're heading to the City Centre from Bray you're going to take DART - maybe even from Cherrywood. However, from Bray to Sandyford, for instance, you'll take LUAS.

Hmm. Maybe, If you were going to somewhere like Trinity. Then again, Harcourt Street or Charlemont (both pretty central) to Bray? Two choices. circa 26 stops on LUAS. or `1/2 stops on LUAS to St. Stephen's Green, into interconnector to Pearse Station, up to Bray DART and 40 minutes out to Bray. But I suppose it's better to have the choice than not to.

But you are quite correct about Bray-Sandyford.

(Just one further thing about their map - it is a pity to lose Tara Street station. I always liked it:) )

BrianD

I was listening to the various reports on the radio. The plan is seriously flawed. A tram line to Lucan?????? Why? There are two rail lines straddling the town and they want to put in a tram line?

One hopes that at least they'll make the 'metro' the same guage as the existing rail system and brand it under the Dart name so at least we'll have the impression that we have an integrated rail system instead of DART, Luas, Suburban, Metro etc.. Hillariously, the "Metro West" line is going to built on a phased basis from the Tallaght end. Are they for real???? Jobs for they boys as this is the most expensive way. Nowhere else in the world would it happen! It would make more sense to build from the northern end towards Tallaght where there will already be rolling stock, signalling, facilities etc.

Most of the projects have been on the cards for years and could have been implemented years ago. The big problem is that we will still have to wait years for them.

Ireland the country with first world salaries and personal wealth and a third world community and quality of life.

morlan

strassenwolf wrote:

`1/2 stops on LUAS to St. Stephen's Green, into interconnector to Pearse Station, up to Bray DART and 40 minutes out to Bray. But I suppose it's better to have the choice than not to.

Under the Trasport 21 plans, will you be able to do this with one ticket or will you have to buy 3 seperate tickets?

bk

morlan wrote:

Under the Trasport 21 plans, will you be able to do this with one ticket or will you have to buy 3 seperate tickets?

An integrated contactless smart card is part of the plan, so you can jump on and off different services.

Luas already has them, buses are currently getting the new ticket machines and will start using it in 2006, Metro will probably have it from the start and the Dart and Commuter Rail services will need to be upgraded to it.

mackerski

bk wrote:

An integrated contactless smart card is part of the plan, so you can jump on and off different services.

The last word I heard on that is that it will work pretty much the same as the integrated contactless notes and coins I already have in my pocket - all modes of transport will be glad to accept the same kind of credits in payment for your distinct journey legs. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

Dermot

strassenwolf

Does anybody know why the interconnector is being left so late in the 10 year plan. It's not scheduled to be completed before 2015 - (if we keep to our usual form, that's about 2017). 2015 is a full 5 years after scheduled completion of the Kildare Route project. So all those extra trains which can come in from Hazelhatch will either be only going as far as Heuston or taking the fairly circuitous Phoenix Park tunnel route for about 5 years.

In my opinion, the interconnector should be scheduled to be finished much earlier. I can't see why it isn't.

dowlingm

strassenwolf

IE's network is not configured for the interconnector I would guess - and even if it was, it's not designed, no EIS has been done, there will be fine tuning of station locations, a few rounds with An Bord Pleanala and the archaeologists, etc. etc. Then you have to tunnel, but not like the Port Tunnel because the PT has no stations requiring exit to street.

2015 is probably a realistic figure!

Metrobest

I have to say I'm very pleased with the overall plan. Over the last few months people have the argument of "we can't afford it" to shoot down the metro. I have always said the country can afford two metro lines, that Dublin needs two metro lines, and now it will have two metro lines. Good result - although I remain sceptical about Metro West; it hasn't gone through the same analysis as Metro North. Duff projects shouldn't be allowed slip through the net just because the economy is going well.

Ps. Egg on Marko P11's face! - I recall him saying that his "sources" had told him that the RPA metro was "dead"... But what's this? TWO metro lines! Better have a word with those "sources," marko.

strassenwolf

dowlingm wrote:

IE's network is not configured for the interconnector I would guess

could you clarify?

and even if it was, it's not designed, no EIS has been done, there will be fine tuning of station locations, a few rounds with An Bord Pleanala and the archaeologists, etc. etc. Then you have to tunnel, but not like the Port Tunnel because the PT has no stations requiring exit to street.

dowlingm, I'm sure you're correct. But 10 years?

2015 is probably a realistic figure!

Very sad.

And this LUAS line to Lucan via Inchicore/Kilmainham will not help matters - I can see that Olivia Mitchell or others might see it as further duplication (she already sees it as duplication of the Red Line).

It's not good.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

I have to say I'm very pleased with the overall plan. Over the last few months people have the argument of "we can't afford it" to shoot down the metro. I have always said the country can afford two metro lines, that Dublin needs two metro lines, and now it will have two metro lines. Good result - although I remain sceptical about Metro West; it hasn't gone through the same analysis as Metro North. Duff projects shouldn't be allowed slip through the net just because the economy is going well. Ps. Egg on Marko P11's face! - I recall him saying that his "sources" had told him that the RPA metro was "dead"... But what's this? TWO metro lines! Better have a word with those "sources," marko.

But weren't you denouncing Metro West not a fortnight ago?

dowlingm

strassenwolf

check out this link to give you an idea of the process

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/spadina_extension/general.htm

aliveandkicking

Metrobest wrote:

Ps. Egg on Marko P11's face! - I recall him saying that his "sources" had told him that the RPA metro was "dead"... But what's this? TWO metro lines! Better have a word with those "sources," marko.

I think you will find that the RPA version of the Metro has been speced up. What was announced today was very similar to the original DTO designed metro which was in Platform for Change which Marko from P11 has always championed. Notice the Glasnevin Junction interchange station. All platform 11 have ever asked for was a proper integrated metro not the mickey mouse underground Luas the RPA were proposing. That seems to have happened, the trains will now be 90m not 60m, there will be an interchange with dart at Stephen's Green and Glasnevin Junction, it will run to Swords (not terminate at the airport like the RPA wanted) and best of all the orbital metro is going ahead which will do a great deal to relieve congestion in West Dublin.

So all in all I think thats 90% of P11's wishlist for the Metro. The other 10% will be what Gauge its built to but thats not as important as capacity and integration.

Metrobest is fairly happy, P11 is fairly happy, West On Track are fairly happy.

Everyone is happy but will it all be delivered???????

markf909

Ps. Egg on Marko P11's face! - I recall him saying that his "sources" had told him that the RPA metro was "dead"... But what's this? TWO metro lines! Better have a word with those "sources," marko.

Well in fairness to MarkoP11, the RPA metro is dead!

Instead of a single 'metro' starting at the top of O'Connell St. and heading
to the airport with 3 carriages and ignoring every other form of transport
along the way, we now get a proper Metro starting at St. Stephens Green
that integrates with the Luas Green Line and Interconnector and crucially
if you look at
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf
you will see the metro pass a nicely highlighted Glasnevin where it meets the
Maynooth DART. That is all from P11 input so kudos to them.
No one was against a proper metro, just a half-assed attempt at spending Irish taxpayers money to justify the existence of the RPA.

atgate

Looks like Terenure, Templeogue, Knocklyon, Rathgar, Rathmines, Harold's X, Kimmage, Crumlin....... are all left out. On the rail map there seems to be a big hole in south / south west Dublin.

fly_agaric

Maskhadov wrote:

Question : -

Does anyone think that after this €20bn is spent by 2017 that our roads and rail will be still poor quality compared to the rest of western Europe ??

But think of all the shiny reports and press launches we could have with just a fraction of that E20bn. Much more fun. The government could even establish a medical research company to advance the science of brainwashing. Then we'll all believe that we live in a country with top-notch transport infrastructure.

Stimpyone

atgate wrote:

Looks like Terenure, Templeogue, Knocklyon, Rathgar, Rathmines, Harold's X, Kimmage, Crumlin....... are all left out. On the rail map there seems to be a big hole in south / south west Dublin.

Ditto North East Dublin..

MarkoP11

Complete revisal of Stephen's Green Airport metro plans YES
Terminates in Swords YES
Longer Metro trains YES
Station at Glasnevin YES
Development of Metro system not a single line YES
RPA proposed single line unintegrated metro thrown in bin YES
DTO style plans back YES

Looks like I win

fly_agaric

Stimpyone wrote:

Ditto North East Dublin..

Who cares. I'd be pleasantly surprised if Dublin has a metro before most of the posters on this thread are pushing up diasies or at least qualify for their free public transport pass.

hawkmoon269

I'm not displeased with the plan, overall.

Hopefully the bickering between Metrobest and MarkP11 et al will stop. Or maybe not.

hawkmoon269

markf909 wrote:

Well in fairness to MarkoP11, the RPA metro is dead!

Instead of a single 'metro' starting at the top of O'Connell St. and heading
to the airport with 3 carriages and ignoring every other form of transport
along the way, we now get a proper Metro starting at St. Stephens Green
that integrates with the Luas Green Line and Interconnector and crucially
if you look at
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf
you will see the metro pass a nicely highlighted Glasnevin where it meets the
Maynooth DART. That is all from P11 input so kudos to them.
No one was against a proper metro, just a half-assed attempt at spending Irish taxpayers money to justify the existence of the RPA.

Excellent.

dowlingm

Now all we need is a "YES" in the "utilises Irish gauge/DART equipment" column to complete the set

MarkoP11

dowlingm wrote:

Now all we need is a "YES" in the "utilises Irish gauge/DART equipment" column to complete the set

That would be the clean sweep, thats for the planning stage, the RPA's original mickey mouse plan is well and truely dead for that we must be thankfull

If you are an existing rail commuter you have been shafted, its a long wait to 2015 its coming but not anytime soon

Navan has been given a token gesture the money will run out long before the time comes to build it

The railway to nowhere (the WRC) has been given priority above rail routes where there is currently serious overcrowding which makes no sense

gobdaw

This is an election manifesto, pure and simple. No separate budgets for individual projects. Each project still needs individual sanction from a dept of finance which has not got the ability to spend it's current expenditure allocations. Something for everyone in the audance (Claremorris for fcuk sake!). Metro construction starting from Tallaght! Words fail me! Electric trains starting from downtown Hazelhatch! Transport planning from the people who brought you separate not-joined-up Luas lines. Dublin Transport Authority "in a few weeks". Remind you of anything? January's 10 year plan?Roll on the elections. Its the only weapon that influences any politician.

luckat

atgate wrote:

Looks like Terenure, Templeogue, Knocklyon, Rathgar, Rathmines, Harold's X, Kimmage, Crumlin....... are all left out. On the rail map there seems to be a big hole in south / south west Dublin.

I laughed at this too. The largest flatlands in south Dublin, full of people who drive because they have no decent transport, and the most likely to take buses - mostly people who live there because it's a short commute to Dublin city centre - and there's no offer for them.

There was some lunatic mention at one stage of a Luas along the canal and then crossing to Phibsboro - which didn't take into account the fact that most people driving along the canal come in from the country and suburbs, and that 90% of people in Harold's Cross commute to the city centre.

The most important Luas line in the country would be one that came up Clanbrassil Street and Harold's Cross Road to Leinster Road, then turned along Leinster Road and went to Rathmines, and through Upper Rathmines to meet the St Stephen's Green Luas at Cowper Road. That would take *huge* amounts of traffic off the roads. But no, not in the plan.

ishmael whale

MarkoP11 wrote:

The railway to nowhere (the WRC) has been given priority above rail routes where there is currently serious overcrowding which makes no sense

Indeed. There has to be some wonder at why, in 2012, there will be empty rail carriages rolling along the Western Rail Corridor, but people will still be getting off commuter trains in Heuston and piling on to buses to get to where they really need to be.
And all the time there's that nagging feeling that large parts of the plan will evaporate once the election is over.

gobdaw

There’s an election coming. This is the hand we’ve been dealt.

Proposed by T21:

Interconnector to be constructed last, completed by 2015.

Not possible to complete earlier without electrification of Maynooth, Spenser Dock, (Phoenix Park tunnel?), Hazel Hatch so that trains could use Interconnector.

Kildare/Drogheda only service planned to use Interconnector on regular basis.

Possible scheme to fast track Interconnector:

Hazel Hatch to be electrified as part of the quad project. Spenser Dock to be electrified as part of that project. Phoenix Park tunnel electrified concurrently with those projects.

All EMUs (Dart) be then rostered to Hazel Hatch/Drogheda service. Maynooth/Greystones be served by 2900s.

What completion date would that proposal generate?

There is an election coming!

MarkoP11

Electrify Maynooth Connolly now all the bridges have been raised already so its easy and cheap, buy additonal rolling stock. Switch current Maynooth service to electric and divert rolling stock elsewhere. Also need Spencer Dock wired up and both routes to Glasnevin Junction

ETA from green light 3 years ie 2008

Put in place all overhead equipment as part of Kildare route project, 2009, order rolling stock

Start digging tunnel in 2008 after planning tendering etc to be finished by 2012, in parrallel you electrify Drogheda and Hazelhatch and procure rolling stock and operate either side of interconnector till finished. Wire up Park Tunnel route. Switch 2900 fleet to cover Navan and expanded services to other destinations

All done 2012/2013 no problems

Zebra3

Regarding the Connolly-Maynooth line electrification...is there actually that much to it that it would take three years?

Anyone know how long the DART line took to electrify? Did the DART line electrification involve weekend shutdowns like the DART has seen over the last couple of years?

dowlingm

Zebra3

you have to tender for the transformers, agree hookup with the grid, string the cable... it all takes a while especially when DofF will slow writing the cheque as long as it can.

MarkoP11

DART was authorised in late 1979. First section went live in March 1983

What was the major hold up was the need to rebuild all the stations, bridges and to install new signalling. All the Maynooth line needs is a few substations and the wire put up. It took a lot of work in 1983/4 to convince the ESB that the DART would not break the grid so the national grid issues are already documented and understood (nothing to do with demand but phase issues, voltage flicker and distortion)

The biggest delay is actually ordering the rolling stock, thankfully it could be commissioned on the current line first. Transformers are commodity items so its quick get them

Yes it would mean closures but a lot could be done as single line working, the overhead work on DART was mostly done by March 04 the platforms where the real problem. Sunday is probably dead while its being done that said an increase from 4 trains an hour to 8 is worth it