Transport Package

Metrobest

Reading between the lines, it seems to me that the RPA are, for the most part on the same page as Platform 11.

* The metro is going to Swords in phase 1
* It will integrate with DART; probably not at Glasnevin Junction for reasons stated above
* Metro will be specified depending on level of funding allocated by the government
* Spec'd for 90M platforms allows AMPLE room for future capacity enhancements, if needed
* It serves all the key demand hubs along the Northside corridor

It's time for the people who've been spewing nonsense about the RPA and the Swords-Stephen's Green metro project to put their hands up in the air and lay their weapons on the floor. Your scaremongering tactics about costs, route alignement and specificiations have failed.

The metro is going to be a truly transformational project.

spacetweek

Maskhadov wrote:

It looks like whats posted on this thread is pretty accurate
Cullen to present 10-year transport plan
Tim O'Brien

This is somewhat different from what was posted before.

A Luas to Swords?? I presume they mean the one going to Ballymun and the Airport. So this is included, then. Well, good!

What's the Luas "via Harold's Cross"? Is this the Rathfarnham one? Church St to Dundrum via Rathfarnham?

Also the Western Railway appears to be going in phases as far as Claremorris now, not just to Oranmore?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Spec'd for 90M platforms allows AMPLE room for future capacity enhancements, if needed

Hardly. Standard 8 coach DART platform is 175m long. Interconnector to be spec'd for 12 coach operation (just in case-typical IE future-proofing) so that could see 250m platforms in that tunnel, which will be signalled for 16tph in each direction.

A 90m platform would not be able to take a standard Munich 6 car set of today. I had hoped the minimum we would aim for is 6 car operation, expandable to 8. That's not possible without a lot of expense later on.

The platforms of any metro should be at least capable of taking 8 cars.

Maskhadov

more from the irish times : -

Cullen to launch 10-year national transport plan
Tim O'Brien, Regional Development Correspondent




Minister for Transport Martin Cullen is to present the Government's 10-year strategic transport plan in Dublin Castle next Tuesday.

Invitations have been sent to key transport and regional development figures for the event, to be held in the State Apartments at 2pm.

The invitations have led to a flurry of speculation as to what the transport plan will contain, particularly in the west of Ireland where invitations have been received by campaigners for the reopening of the western rail corridor.

Hopes are high that Mr Cullen will announce the reopening of the line at least as far as Claremorris, Co Mayo, while keeping options open on the remaining link in the route from Claremorris to Sligo.

Campaigners in the west pointed out that National Development Plan spending in the Border Midlands and Western (BMW) region was well behind the State's southern and eastern region.

They said they were hoping their invitations signalled Government recognition that reopening the western rail corridor could represent a significant development initiative.

Tuesday's presentation of the transport plan will precede the weekly Cabinet meeting which has been held over from Tuesday because of the bank holiday weekend.

The plan already has the support of Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Minister for Finance Brian Cowen.

As The Irish Times reported during the week, the re-establishing of passenger services on the western rail corridor between Ennis and Galway is virtually certain.

Sources also said the remaining sections between Athenry and Sligo could be reopened on a phased basis.

The plan, which has been costed at almost €20 billion, also includes:

r A commitment of almost €10 billion to complete the inter-urban motorway programme in the next five years

r Linking the Luas lines in the centre of Dublin with extensions to Swords, the docklands and Cherrywood

r A Dublin airport metro

r Iarnród Éireann's proposed station at Spencer Dock, a rail interconnector linking Connolly and Heuston stations via Pearse Street, and the reopening of the Navan railway line as far as Dunboyne, Co Meath

r Funding for the quadrupling of the Kildare route lines as far as Hazelhatch

r The expansion of commuter services on the Mallow line, and the reopening of commuter services on the Midleton line

r Improvements to inter-regional roads, particularly the western road corridor. Some provision for the outer orbital motorway route around Dublin.

Some of the costings in the plan are fluid, and it is noted that where money may not be required for certain projects at specific periods in the 10-year plan, it can be diverted to others.

"It is not just a matter of how much money, it is a matter of when it needs to be spent," said a Government source.

The plan represents more than a year's work on the part of Mr Cullen, who has secured important backing for the plan from Mr Ahern and Mr Cowen.

While Mr Cullen has repeated that there was no rift between his department and that of Finance, he has acknowledged that it was necessary for him and Mr Cowen to sign off on the plan.

Mr Ahern is expected to make the plan a major plank in the Government's manifesto for the general election due in 2007.


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/1029/545645694HM7PAGELEAD.html
© The Irish Times

murphaph

Arrrrghhh, that fcuking WRC won't die! Half tjhat ill-informed piece was about carrying a few grannies to Knock and the rest (carrying millions of commuters to work) was treated as a side issue.

Yet again we're told the Interconnector runs to Connolly! The Kildare Route Project (quad tracking to Hazelhatch) is independent of this plan! Lazy lazy journalism.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

It's time for the people who've been spewing nonsense about the RPA and the Swords-Stephen's Green metro project to put their hands up in the air and lay their weapons on the floor. Your scaremongering tactics about costs, route alignement and specificiations have failed.

The metro is going to be a truly transformational project.

What on earth are you talking about? Who was scaremonging? Where is the metro? One line does not a metro make! I fail to comprehend wjy we continue to refer to it as a metro when all were doing is building is another DART line (of course to a higher standard than the existing line and incorporating the usual conventions of modern mass transit systems).

However, when it is built (what ever route it takes) whatever civil servant/RPA official decides that this line will not be called a DART line should be fired. The last thing we need is another sub-brand in Dublin transport to join the countless others.

dowlingm

Platform 11 not invited again I see. When are P11s friends in the meeja like Frank McDonald going to make a fuss about the WRC people being bowed and scraped to and the people who want to get *lots* of people out of cars in urban areas frozen out?

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

A 90m platform would not be able to take a standard Munich 6 car set of today. I had hoped the minimum we would aim for is 6 car operation, expandable to 8. That's not possible without a lot of expense later on.

The platforms of any metro should be at least capable of taking 8 cars.

Philip, I think you should be grateful that it's five car: the reduced €1.2bn estimate would have been 2 car with the potential to go to three if demand warranted. To speak of the 12 carraige interconnector tunnel in the context of a metro project is not useful. I don't believe there's a single metro line in Europe with more than 8 carraige metros, is there? And it's important to remember the difference in density between Dublin and other large cities like Munich. They have 6 carraige metros because they have the sustained population density to generate the passenger numbers: we don't.

Several metro lines in Paris run in five car sets; smaller sets run in lots of other European cities. Porto (pop. 2 million), I believe a city the RPA have studied, has two/three car sets running every 2 minutes. Short-medium trains running at high frequency are a better than long trains (eg. DART) running at random frequencies on un-segregated tracks with all the reliability problems inherent in such a set up. Therein lies the difference between DART and metro, Brian D.

DART, for many people, connotes a poor quality of service, cramped conditions, illogical timetables, rude staff, lazy drivers.. insert more negatives as desired. Aside from all the specification issues which have been discussed at length, as a branding exercise it would be madness to call the metro "Dart." Most ordinary passengers, having used systems in other European cities, recognise that the DART can't be a metro system as long as it shares tracks with diesels and intercities and has level crossings on its route. Come back to me when these issues are resolved and then we can call DART "metro."

The fact that the two luas tram lines last year carried more passengers than the entire DART network shows that optiumum passenger numbers are delivered by service quality (ie. reliable high frequency) - not by carriage quantity (8 carraige DARTs at odd frequencies sharing track with diesels and intercities.)

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

Yet again we're told the Interconnector runs to Connolly! The Kildare Route Project (quad tracking to Hazelhatch) is independent of this plan! Lazy lazy journalism.

Sounds like Tim should be working for the Sunday Indo!

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Philip, I think you should be grateful that it's five car:

Why? Because this is Ireland with the highest GDP per capita in the EU after Luxembourg? With the strongest growth figures again this year? We need to start converting that paper wealth into infrastructure as Cullen might say. We need to move away from your attitude of "it's as much as we can expect in Ireland to do x, y and we can't even think about affording z!"

Metrobest wrote:

To speak of the 12 carraige interconnector tunnel in the context of a metro project is not useful.

Of course it is, it shows the future-proofing mentality at play within IE engineering and lack of it within the RPA. You have to ask yourself too, what has forced this latest RPA turnaround?

Metrobest wrote:

I don't believe there's a single metro line in Europe with more than 8 carraige metros

That's my point-any metro being built from scratch today should be built with the capability of 8 car operation, not to run 8 car from day one but as demand increases to be able to increase capacity easily and with no system downtime.

Metrobest wrote:

And it's important to remember the difference in density between Dublin and other large cities like Munich. They have 6 carraige metros because they have the sustained population density to generate the passenger numbers: we don't.

Ah, but the main plank in your argument for metro is that it will create a huge densification effect. So now you're advocating creating the effect but not building a metro that will be able to cater for the demand you've just created. Illogical.

Metrobest wrote:

DART, for many people, connotes a poor quality of service, cramped conditions, illogical timetables, rude staff, lazy drivers.. insert more negatives as desired. Aside from all the specification issues which have been discussed at length, as a branding exercise it would be madness to call the metro "Dart." Most ordinary passengers, having used systems in other European cities, recognise that the DART can't be a metro system as long as it shares tracks with diesels and intercities and has level crossings on its route. Come back to me when these issues are resolved and then we can call DART "metro."

DART was once the darling of CIE and still carries nigh on 100k people a day, with demand spiralling all the time-it's all IE can do to keep up ffs! The KRP aims to begin the process of segregating DART from mainline, the DRP obviously goes much further and of course, everytime a passing loop is added here and a LC removed there, the network becomes more reliable. It takes time, but the vast majority of the system is in place TODAY. It should be improved and expanded. You might think DART is despised here in Dublin, but living where I do the thought of DART is something people only dream of.

strassenwolf

It was originally 10 billion, then 20 billion, and now...

Sunday Business Post wrote:

€25bn transport initiative to kickstart re-election campaign

30 October 2005 By Cliff Taylor
The government is hoping for a major boost from the announcement this week of a massive transport investment programme for the next decade.

The Sunday Business Post understands that the sum involved over the ten years is considerably more than €25 billion.

The programme will be unveiled on Tuesday by transport minister Martin Cullen and will detail individual costings and timings for the major projects. It will include major commitments for public transport in Dublin and road investment across the state.

Individual ministers have been briefed on the projects for their own local areas, as the government hopes to maximise the public relations impact of the announcement.

Central to the plan is a major investment in public transport in Dublin.

It includes the expansion of the Luas network, a metro link to Dublin airport, the upgrading of commuter rail lines and a tunnel interconnection between Heuston and Connolly stations.

A new train station at Spencer Dock in Dublin's quays will also feature.

Outside Dublin, there will be considerable emphasis on the completion of the inter-urban motorway network, an existing element of government policy, as well as the continued upgrading of the regional road network. In Cork, the plan will involve the reopening of the Midleton line and a substantial investment in central Cork.

The plan is likely to be central to the government's drive for re-election.

It is also likely to be followed by the drawing up of investment programmes in other departments to replace the existing national development programme, which runs out next year.

My guess is it'll be 30 by Tuesday!

Zaph0d

The most expensive public transport elements in this plan are the interconnector and the metro. The metro has been promised before in the last FF manifesto. Neither project will have a contract signed before the next election. A new administration might throw it out or the economy may run out of steam by then. So what is the significance of this announcement, compared to previous promises and announcements?

In the shadow of Kyoto agreement fines, we are going to build another 10billion worth of roads to stimulate more demand for car traffic and make more car-dependent housing and commuting feasible.

wtf?

Maskhadov

Thats not stricty true Zaph0d. New lower emission cars may be developed. The car and truck is very pratical for a lot of people. That said there should be far more public transport.

The metro could be dead as a dodo come 2007 and Bertie and co are kicked out. They should go ahead with it though. The city and airport badly needs it.

bk

Zaph0d wrote:

The most expensive public transport elements in this plan are the interconnector and the metro. The metro has been promised before in the last FF manifesto. Neither project will have a contract signed before the next election. A new administration might throw it out or the economy may run out of steam by then. So what is the significance of this announcement, compared to previous promises and announcements?

Unlikely, the plan is a good one, it was developed by civil servants (the DTO) and not politicans and these sort of things normally transcend different governments. People will likely be in favour of this plan in general and the other parties will likely have to agree to carry out the plan if they want to get into government. I have no doubt that the other parties will disagree on the more controversial parts of the plan and may change parts, but in general it will be done.

The Esat Link Road would be one part that could be attacked and dropped by another party, in particular any government with the Green Party, however the Metro, Luas and Train plans (Spencer Dock, Ineterconnector, etc.) all seem reasonably safe.

MarkoP11

The one historical note is that in following a change of government in 1987 the plans to bring the DART to Tallaght and Blanchardstown which included a tunnel from Heuston to East Wall Rd almost identical to what is proposed today was ditched

strassenwolf

Today's Indo wrote:

Metro line key feature of new transport plans

THE Metro rail line, linking Dublin city with the airport, is definitely going ahead, the Government will announce tomorrow.

A 10-year transport plan for the nation, to be unveiled at Dublin Castle, will also see an interconnector between Heuston and Connolly stations, and there will be a new docklands train station.

The Irish Independent has learned details of the huge investment plan for road and rail, especially in the Dublin region.

The framework for investment over the next decade involves particular commitments:

* An estimated €2.4bn on the Metro over two distinct phases. The first part of the project will see underground trains run from O'Connell Street to Dublin Airport.

* €1bn to be invested on an interconnector rail link between Heuston and Connolly stations, and linking all mainline and Dart services.

* The €600m completion of the Eastern bypass.

* A new train station and spur line at Spencer Dock.

* Significant upgrading of the Maynooth line.

* €1bn a year, every year, for the completion of major road projects.

The 10-year transport plan has been the most closely guarded secret in government for years.

Unveiling it tomorrow, the Taoiseach will conjure up a vision of easy commuting in the future through the planning of investment now.

He and senior ministers see the integrated concept as the major plank of their case for an historic third consecutive term in government, with an implied risk to the delivery of the plan if the voters should break with the ruling Coalition.

And the Government is expected to counter political flak over the heavy investment in transport infrastructure in the capital - cockpit of the next general election - by announcing a series of smaller projects around the country, including the refurbishment of the Western rail corridor.

Some sections of this line, which formerly ran from Sligo to Limerick, are likely to be re-opened. A necklace of road projects will relieve traffic bottlenecks elsewhere.

AMBITIOUS

But the main focus of the blueprint remains on Dublin in what is described as "the most ambitious transport plan in the history of the State".

The metro service from the city centre to the airport will take a route that services Dorset Street and Dublin City University, according to the plans.

The interconnector between Heuston and Connolly stations will be located entirely on the south side of the river Liffey - instead of consisting of a loop running along both banks, as had been previously envisaged.

A feasibility study into the "M50's big brother" is further expected to recommend the beginning of construction on the so-called outer orbital route. This will place a new C-ring motorway outside the existing M50, enabling motorists to travel from Drogheda to Wicklow via Naas.

The upgrading of the Maynooth line, plagued by a lack of capacity, has long been expected. What is not yet clear is the Government's intentions in relation to Dublin Bus, which says it has been starved of resources for its fleet.

The Government has asked the company to outline how it can operate a more efficient service, with the widespread operation of private buses on city routes under active consideration.

Senan Molony
Political Correspondent

A 2.4 billion metro - I thought we had been looking at a 3.5 billion metro. And why are they only building it to O'Connell Street rather that St. Stephen's Green? Very odd.

And this:

€1bn to be invested on an interconnector rail link between Heuston and Connolly stations, and linking all mainline and Dart services.

If it's linking all mainline and DART services, maybe it is going to Connolly itself, rather than Spencer Dock. ?

The interconnector between Heuston and Connolly stations will be located entirely on the south side of the river Liffey - instead of consisting of a loop running along both banks, as had been previously envisaged.

Had anyone previously envisaged the interconnector as a loop along both banks? Where do they come up with this stuff?

MarkoP11

The plans for the interconnector tunnel in its current form (2002/3 onwards)have never included Connolly Station. It is going to Spencer Dock

Given its a single bore tunnel it has always been on the south quays

As always the metro is simply crazy the truth will come out tomorrow and we could be waiting many years before they start digging. We need to get this right,, it was never either or both metro and interconnector done right was what everyone wanted we might just get that now

Zaph0d

strassenwolf wrote:

Had anyone previously envisaged the interconnector as a loop along both banks? Where do they come up with this stuff?

I think the idea is that if the Park tunnel came into service for passengers, there'd be a sort of a circle line; interconnector for the south side and park tunnel/maynooth line for the north side.

Thomond Pk

I think it is in everyone's interest to wait and see what is actually announced tomorrow; we've all been second guessing this for long enough and one suspects clever spin doctors throwing smoke up to wrong foot the opposition in their reaction to the plan.

A two phase metro would be a disaster given that the first phase will not be completed before 2012 at the earliest.

BrianD

I think the Luas to Swords is a bad decision. Why isn't the "metro" simply extended to Swords and serving Ballymun and DCU at the same time. The green line could then be extended to go through Drumcondra, Whitehall and Santry. Usual bad planning from the powers that be.

Metrobest

Dear Bertie,

Tomorrow is a very exciting day for Irish transport. Fingers crossed the metro from Stephen's Green to Swords is in there. We've waited long enough, those of us who have seen the wonderful benefits of this project. Put your cards on the table Bertie and show us what you've got.

As you know full well, Bertie, your government decided in principle to build this line back in 2002. It's now September 2005 and all we've had from you and your henchmen is fudge, spin and dither. From now on you have to act decisively. Do the job efficiently.

The reputation of your government now rests on your abiltity to deliver these projects within ten years, as you will promise tomorrow. The metro could and should be up and running sooner if you had enacted the Critical Intrastructure Bill and followed the recommendations of Professor Melis in Madrid. He said, for example, that the O'Connell Street station could be constructed within twelve months.

Fasten your seatbelt, Bertie, for this is going to be bumpy ride. There will be unforeseen problems during construction with whiney NIMBY residents and inaccurate media reports. You must hold firm. Your legacy as Taoiseach depends on it.

Yours faithfully,

M. Best

aliveandkicking

Metrobest wrote:

http://www.rpa.ie/?id=13


On Glasnevin Junction:

"RPA supports the Committee’s view that the Metro should be linked to all national heavy rail lines. In relation to the Maynooth line, RPA notes the Committee’s suggestion that this connection should be at Glasnevin Junction. While this location has merit, it should be noted that it is land-locked by Prospect Cemetery, Broombridge Industrial Estate and the Royal Canal limiting passenger numbers in that area. It would also require the closure of Bus Átha Cliath and Bus Éireann bus depots at Broadstone, which could risk of delaying the project."

It seems the RPA have got their junctions mixed up. What they refer to in the above paragraph is actually Liffey Junction which lies 1km west of Glasnevin Junction. Glasnevin Junction is not landlocked by Broombridge Industrial Estate and locating a metro station here would have absolutely no impact on Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann depots at Broadstone.

For those unfamiliar with the area, get out the Independant Directory, go to page 585 (map no. 2). You will see Liffey Junction labeled just east of Broombridge train station. Now follow the line east. All the rail lines merge just south of Dalcassian Downs - that is Glasnevin Junction. It is accessable from the Phibsboro road (just past Phibsboro Shopping Centre.) It is quite clear the RPA have no clue which junction they are talking about.

murphaph

Indeed Aliveandkicking, we at P11 are very concerned at that paragraph. It is quite clear they are referring to Liffey Junction (where the old MGWR line from Broadstone merged) which is indeed in the middle of nowhere (today that is!). Glasnvin junction, for anyone that knows the area, is right behid Des Kelly Carpets on Cross Gunns Bridge (Porterhouse North for the dipsos amongst us!). A metro station could and should be located here, with the southern end of the platform nearest to Phibsborough, that'd be about 2min walk from Phibsborough Cross to the station entrance. The RPA need to learn a bit about railways and that's really quite worrying. Following tomorrow's announcement, P11 will focus heavily on ensuring the RPA do the right thing and integrate with DART at Glasnevin Junction!

Please visit Platform11 and do what you can

MarkoP11

The RPA simply are using the ignorance of Joe Public to further there agenda, anyone who knows even a little about the railways of Dublin knows where Glasnevin Junction is, given the RPA can't even find it on a map what hope do they have in building a metro ?

The RPA are wrong its plain and simple

Sarsfield

Is there a schedule for tomorrows events? When can we expect white smoke (and hopefully no mirrors )?

MarkoP11

2pm Dublin Castle

I'll have live updates from 1:45pm onwards as it is released, you know where to go the address is below

Maskhadov

Question : -

Does anyone think that after this €20bn is spent by 2017 that our roads and rail will be still poor quality compared to the rest of western Europe ??

Winters

The benefits of having a direct interchange with both DART and commuter services at Phibsborough far outweight the inconvenience of having an extra 3 or 4 minutes walk to the station from the main road.

strassenwolf

Nice work that.

What does the rectangle outlined in red signify? If I'm not mistaken, that is currently a football pitch (there's a school there).

Winters

All its all basically indicative. Yellow - potential heavy rail station and Red - potential metro station. I was just trying to fit them in. The actual RPA 'Botanic' and 'Mater' station sites dont connect with the heavy rail lines at all.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dublin&ll=53.366444,-6.273805&spn=0.002737,0.010274&t=k&hl=en