IRA statement

Stabshauptmann

Hmm, reading about concerns over a rise in anti social behaviour I start thinking back to reports a few months ago of the PIRA handing over "civilian administration" to the INLA.

Also an Taoiseach's comments about the "IRA remaining as a commerative organisation".

And how quickly the British Army is dismantling its posts.

This has been planned out a very long time ago and I think its obvious that they're serious, the war is over.

Stabshauptmann

tomMK1 wrote:

its seems to be accepted that members of the PIRA are involved in criminality - but wheres the proof for this? I accept some obviously are - as in there are criminals in all walks of life - but wheres this proof that lots of them are? ..... and vague quotes from the Indo wont do ....

The IRA devotes an entire ofice in GHQ to fundraising. They dont run raffles.

axer

the_syco wrote:

[font=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"While the days of bombings may be over, I say members of the IRA involved in criminal activity will never make the transition to regular life.

If anything it'll be worse, because something might have been sanctioned from on high before. Now you have all these individuals who'll be free to do their own thing." [/font]

But should the IRA be responsible for their actions?

spikslow

no, but that's up to thme, if they choose to protect people who commit individual crimes (as they have in the past) then they are guilty by association

Villain

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

The IRA devotes an entire ofice in GHQ to fundraising. They dont run raffles.

Thats very true and it's going to be very hard to get people to stop, I mean members who are involved in diesel laundering will know how much can be made form it so trying to get them to stop will be hard.

The more complex problem is the number of bar's and hotels the IRA own, I mean whats going to happen there will they just have a kind of a kind of will and break things up and divide up, cos you know whats happens in Ireland when theres a will!!

I think a lot of people might think the IRA is just a crowd of mugs who just have a few criminal activites going.From what I know of the IRA it is a very very large organisation which is very complex. I mean the last estimates I heard put the number of bars owned by them at over 100 and several hotels also.

nadir

any word on decommissioning yet.

Will be interesting to see if the British army pull out.

bonkey

irish1 wrote:

I think a lot of people might think the IRA is just a crowd of mugs who just have a few criminal activites going.

Given how comparatively often you've challenged ppl here for overstating the criminality of the IRA, I'm amazed you think this.

I agree that it is a serious issue. The biggest issue I forsee with this aspect of it is to what degree IRA intimidation and fear-mongering will continue to protect this criminality in the future, and how long it will take for this to create a political incident.

jc

Villain

bonkey wrote:

Given how comparatively often you've challenged ppl here for overstating the criminality of the IRA, I'm amazed you think this.

I agree that it is a serious issue. The biggest issue I forsee with this aspect of it is to what degree IRA intimidation and fear-mongering will continue to protect this criminality in the future, and how long it will take for this to create a political incident.

jc

My point bonkey was that they have a lot of legal activites as well, like the pubs they own etc. They raise money a lot of different ways and just by criminality.

Stabshauptmann

The only way I can see the IRA ending its fundraising is for Gerry or someone to give a list to the gardaí saying we own x,y and z and we do this and that and him and her do it for us. Then the gardaí go round, knock on the doors telling them to wind up their business. If not, we know who you are and where you live.

But I cant see the IRA turning in their own after all they've been through. The McCarthney issue thought me that.

the_syco

axer wrote:

But should the IRA be responsible for their actions?

No, but they shouldn't use the excuse that its somehow helps the 'RA.

=-=

Also, the boys and girls who did the fundraising activities, will proberly continue to do so, but just no longer give the percentage to the 'RA. This will then be smaller groups of people doing it, rather than a large group with finance.

Think small newsagent versus Spar. Spar can start up a new shop, or expand a current one, as it has the money, but the small newsagent can't expand too easily.

Now, replace shop with scam, Spar, with IRA, and small newsagent with fundraiser.

They'll keep doing what they do, but they may not be able to do such a good job of it, IMO.

tomMK1

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

The IRA devotes an entire ofice in GHQ to fundraising. They dont run raffles.

yeah, fundraising - not criminality. besides hotels and pubs they also have substantial stock portfolios apparently so why do they need to raise cash from criminality?

Smuggling over th eborder is due to the simple fact that the border is there and not because republicans invented a new way of making money (Smuggling over the border has been going on for decades)

Hobbes

Add to that they were told to "End all activities" so it means the IRA will hand them over if they are doing criminal actions (it bloody well better).

tomMK1

the only point Im trying to make is that the criminality aspect of republicanism may well lie outside the provos, so even though the provos say they will only go the peaceful route, those republicans involved in criminality will continue what they are doing.

BuffyBot

My point bonkey was that they have a lot of legal activites as well

Legal in the loosest sense of the word!

Sand

Add to that they were told to "End all activities" so it means the IRA will hand them over if they are doing criminal actions (it bloody well better).

You found the part where SFIRA recognised the authority of the UK and that the PSNI was the only lawful police in Northern Ireland? I didnt. What if it doesnt hand them over? Whats the bloody consequence?

A lot is being read into "end all activities". A lot was read into "a complete cessastion of military operations" 11 years ago. Turned out, despite SFIRA consistently arguing that all its activities were directly or indirectly military, that didnt mean much. Now its nice to have this to hand to taunt Provos that SFIRA have unconditionally surrendered after their total and complete defeat by the lawful governments of both countries, but all this excitement over a few pretty phrases and words is a little..just a tad now....premature.

SFIRA have delivered *nothing*, whilst Blair and Ahern have already appeased SFIRA by releasing Sean Kelly, signalling that immunity for SFIRA is also part of the deal for this statement. The British Army have taken down a watchtower. If all this was prepared, why didnt we have simultaneous verification of destruction of SFIRAs arsenal? SFIRA endorsement of the PSNI? We didnt even get SFIRA extending an apology for the innocent victims of atrocities like Kingsmills, the Birmingham Pub bombings, victims of the Balcombe Street gang or Warrington? Merely that they recognise people suffered - cheers, welcome to planet earth.

Seriously - Im sorry to be so unimpressed but point out whats changed? SFIRA issue feel good hyped up promise of future action. Nothing more. Have they actually moved on a single issue? Not one. Like I said about the December negotiations last year, the deal on paper is meaningless unless people are willing to make it work. Show me actual actions to back up the hype and it might be worth more than the paper its written on.

If Blair and Ahern are so convinced that SFIRA is no longer a terrorist or crinimal organisation, they should announce *immediate* plans to decriminalise membership of the organisation (actually I ought to be careful, with Ahern you never know just how stupidly inept and moronic he can be). After all it would be nonsense to try and bully the DUP ( best of luck ) into going into power with an illegal oranisation.

Villain

Statements like

Now its nice to have this to hand to taunt Provos that SFIRA have unconditionally surrendered after their total and complete defeat by the lawful governments of both countries

are not going to help anyone.

The IRA have laid down their arms, the war is over, now they will begin to decommision those weapons to put a final end to the armed struggle. Decomissioning of weapons takes time but I believe this will happen very soon.

Some Unionists will never be happy no matter what the IRA or Sinn Fein do, the statement promises a lot and I believe the will is there to carry those promises through.

Sinn Fein will join the policing board when the Paton report has been implemented in "full" thats the report that the British Government sanctioned.

As for Sean Kelly, well it's weird I heard Jeffrey Donaldinson saying how furious people were about his release, he never mentioned all the Loyalists murderer's who were released like the killer of 16 year old James Morgan. The GFA was voted for by the majority of people like it or not the early release program was part of that agreement.

So Sand when all the weapons have been put beyond use and witnessed by 2 cleric and the IMC say that the IRA is not active what will you say then????

You know what, I think Paisley and his friends in the DUP are running scared, they know that very soon all their excuses are going to be gone and their going to have to sit down at the same table as Gerry and Martin and anyone can see that they are 10 times more capable politician's than Ian and his little boy.

Sinn Fein have delievered peace to this Island, bash them all you want Sand, the fact is without them the IRA would not have laid down their arms. The 28th of July 2005 will go down as a historic day in the history books. It is the next step along the long road to a United Ireland.

jank

welcome to planet earth.

Maybe you should take a leaf out of your own book.
Like Paisley your rants are becoming old, out dated, self serving, short sighted and boring.

When you and me are long dead, the history books will remember yesterday.
The ultimate winners will be long known by then too.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Sinn Fein have delievered peace to this Island, bash them all you want Sand, the fact is without them the IRA would not have laid down their arms. The 28th of July 2005 will go down as a historic day in the history books. It is the next step along the long road to a United Ireland.

What "paece" did Adams Ferris and McGuiness deliver over the last 35 years.

All this violence achieved nothing. SF accepts patition as long as the majority in NI consent to it.

SF will sit on the policing board and support NI institutions.


The IRA should have gone 7 years ago. Trust will now have to built up - 35 years carnage has made that all the harder & only put off a United Ireland by generations.

tomMK1

Sand wrote:

You found the part where SFIRA recognised the authority of the UK and that the PSNI was the only lawful police in Northern Ireland? I didnt. What if it doesnt hand them over? Whats the bloody consequence?

A lot is being read into "end all activities". A lot was read into "a complete cessastion of military operations" 11 years ago. Turned out, despite SFIRA consistently arguing that all its activities were directly or indirectly military, that didnt mean much. Now its nice to have this to hand to taunt Provos that SFIRA have unconditionally surrendered after their total and complete defeat by the lawful governments of both countries, but all this excitement over a few pretty phrases and words is a little..just a tad now....premature.

SFIRA have delivered *nothing*, whilst Blair and Ahern have already appeased SFIRA by releasing Sean Kelly, signalling that immunity for SFIRA is also part of the deal for this statement. The British Army have taken down a watchtower. If all this was prepared, why didnt we have simultaneous verification of destruction of SFIRAs arsenal? SFIRA endorsement of the PSNI? We didnt even get SFIRA extending an apology for the innocent victims of atrocities like Kingsmills, the Birmingham Pub bombings, victims of the Balcombe Street gang or Warrington? Merely that they recognise people suffered - cheers, welcome to planet earth.

Seriously - Im sorry to be so unimpressed but point out whats changed? SFIRA issue feel good hyped up promise of future action. Nothing more. Have they actually moved on a single issue? Not one. Like I said about the December negotiations last year, the deal on paper is meaningless unless people are willing to make it work. Show me actual actions to back up the hype and it might be worth more than the paper its written on.

If Blair and Ahern are so convinced that SFIRA is no longer a terrorist or crinimal organisation, they should announce *immediate* plans to decriminalise membership of the organisation (actually I ought to be careful, with Ahern you never know just how stupidly inept and moronic he can be). After all it would be nonsense to try and bully the DUP ( best of luck ) into going into power with an illegal oranisation.

I stand firm in my belief that the IRA are going to disarm as they have said. i also believe that the provos will no longer be involved in anything illegal, but i do believe that, as throughout history, the IRA will still remain until there truly is peace. thats the way its always worked before, and it has worked.

My question to you Sand is what are you going to say when the provos do put actions into words? Will the actions not be enough? Will you just not believe the witnesses? I look forward not only to the IRA doing as they've promised to do, but also I look forward to reading your posts and seeing if your point of view has changed.

I'd also love it if they got Paisley to be one of the witnesses - though if asked he;d more than likely refuse since he wouldnt want to meet any of them taig boyos

tomMK1

Cork wrote:

What "paece" did Adams Ferris and McGuiness deliver over the last 35 years.

All this violence achieved nothing. SF accepts patition as long as the majority in NI consent to it.

SF will sit on the policing board and support NI institutions.


The IRA should have gone 7 years ago. Trust will now have to built up - 35 years carnage has made that all the harder & only put off a United Ireland by generations.

I have no idea if you've been watching the news over the past decade or so, but if you are asking how the republican movement has psuhed forward the peace process, then i must assume you werent taking into account what was happening in ireland.

I dont think anyone anywhere involved in the conflict thinks violence was a great idea, or relished it - but wars happen when one set of people ignore and abuse another set of people - thats life.

Sinn fein, afaik, wont be sitting on a policing board until its given the powers outlined in the patton report, and they're damned right too. the policing boards suggested powers have gone to the secretary of state and others, rendering it not useless, but certainly nothing as effective as was first put forward int he patton report. that report has to be implimented and the PSNI put into some form of Its Not The RUC Anymore order - at the minute it isnt much different than the RUC. A quick google on the subject should give you further info on that front - in fact theres a link in one of these threads about the lack of power of the policing board.

The IRA indeed should have gone away 7 years ago, but again, as it may have slipped your notice, but the GFA agreement itself STILL hasnt been implimented - but right now at least the IRA are keeping up their side of the bargain.

Its time for the governments and loyalists to do the same thing .. impliment the various reports and agreements, re-open stormount and fully run the cross border institutions.

I think people will just have to get used to the fact that the IRA are gone, and theres no point complaining about them.

Cork

tomMK1 wrote:

I think people will just have to get used to the fact that the IRA are gone, and theres no point complaining about them.

They have not disbanded. The Criminal Assets Bureau should sieze all illegal assets suspected of belonging to this gang. I hope they will get help on this by members of the public.

It is great that people in Northern Ireland can now live without the fear of punishment attacks.

The Irish Exchequer should also benefit - If IRA rackets are not substituted with private operations.

But as far as it goes - the IRA statement is welcome and it shows how little "war" achieves.

tomMK1

cork wrote:

They have not disbanded. The Criminal Assets Bureau should sieze all illegal assets suspected of belonging to this gang. I hope they will get help on this by members of the public.

It is great that people in Northern Ireland can now live without the fear of punishment attacks.

The Irish Exchequer should also benefit - If IRA rackets are not substituted with private operations.

But as far as it goes - the IRA statement is welcome and it shows how little "war" achieves.

the people of the north still live in fear of attacks - isnt that even what has been said today by people on the falls? the loyalists are doing quite a bitof attacking, primarily themselves at the minute, but there has been ongoing attacks on nationalists for ages before this. The idea that the troubles has all been the fault of the IRA is an inaccurate one to say the least - as Im sure we'll all find out in the near future.

Its a really unfortunate thing to have to say, but since you seem to be missing the point about how wars work, I have to say it .... unfortunately if the IRA hadnt went to war 36 years ago, then someone would have gone to war either sometime between then and now or in the future over the way nationalists were being treated by the stormount government .. it had to happen as unfortunately some people have to use force to get the point over to other people that they cant treat them like ****. being here now in 2005 and saying the war the IRA were engaged in as though it was all of their doing without any help from certain other communities and governments - well, i dont know what to say to that as a quick look at Irish history explains how these things happened, and its certainly not my role to be explaining such things.

axer

Cork wrote:

They have not disbanded.

There is good reason why they have not disbanded.

Cork wrote:

But as far as it goes - the IRA statement is welcome and it shows how little "war" achieves.

I must say though that it nearly worked at a time - its a pity that the curcustances created such a conflict in the first place.

segaBOY

Letter from Irish Examiner:

IRA move a betrayal to the people of Ireland

NO amount of fancy words or ambiguous phrases can disguise the sell-out and surrender of the Provo statement. It is an insult to the men of 1916 and all those who supported them down the generations.

There is only one word to describe their act: treachery. That treachery is against the Irish people and the age-old aspiration of a new and united Ireland.

The Provos seem to forget that these weapons are not theirs to decommission or destroy. Weapons were obtained for the freedom of Ireland and it is the traditional view of republicans through history that weapons should not be handed over without a fight.

The pledge to continue in a new mode to campaign for a united Ireland is hypocritical: they are now administering British rule in Ireland they cannot engage in both tasks.

These Provos continue to speak out of the side of their mouths, pretending that this new mode will bring about the republican objective of a united Ireland. This discredited Provo leadership and their minions have no option but to disband now and allow genuine republicans to finish the task.

Des Long
52 Shannon Banks
Corbally
Limerick

---

I can see where Mr.Long is coming from, read the IRA constitution, it clearly states that an Armed Struggle shall continue until a United Ireland is achieved, however, hardened republicans need to move on and look at the positive political implications that this statement will have. I am not criticizing any republican and his view about this statement, I respect all the men and women who died fighting for the Provisionals but we have had a full cease fire for 9 years and this has brought about so much political change-who would have imagined a Sinn Féin Lord Mayor of Belfast 10 years ago?

My honest view is that even though I was shocked by this statement and some what wary of this drastic change I fully believe all republicans need to accept this change and only participate in political means, I feel it will benifit this island more than a continued armed struggle.

I feel the Provisional IRA have done a superb job over the past 30+ years and have brought the British government to it's knees(to the negotiation table) and now it is time to let negotiation take over and leave Sinn Féin do their job.

marco murphy

So much for that,the IRA are called terrorists - they stand down - and now its betrayal. Are you people ever happy :rolleyes:

marco murphy

Anyone would want to be stupid to not notice the IRA have just changed their constitution dramatically.

Cork

Poblachtach wrote:

Anyone would want to be stupid to not notice the IRA have just changed their constitution dramatically.

This country has but one constitution - It has nothing to do with the IRA.

I am very interested in the internal workings of illegal organisations.

Sand

Jank, Irish1, Tom, anyone else running off to the bank to remortgage your house to bet on this statement - slow down, breathe, and examine some past statements by P O Neill.

Back in October 2003 they said

He [Gerry Adams] also referred to the issue of weapons.
The IRA leadership is committed to resolving this issue.
In line with our stated position, we have authorized our representative to meet with the IICD with a view to proceeding with the implementation of a process to put arms beyond use at the earliest opportunity.

Back in April 2003 they said

Oglaigh na hEireann supports the peace process. We want it to work. We affirm that our cessation is intact.

We are resolved to see the complete and final closure of this conflict. The IRA leadership is determined to ensure that our activities, disciplines and strategies will be consistent with this.

The IRA poses no threat to the unionist people or to the peace process.

We have authorised our representative to meet with the IICD with a view to proceeding with the implementation of a process to put arms beyond use at the earliest opportunity.

Back in January 2003 they said

We are totally committed to the search for a just and lasting peace.

Back in October 2002 they said

Despite this, the British government says that the responsibility for this present crisis and its resolution lies with us and there is an effort to impose unacceptable and untenable ultimatums on the IRA.

At the same time the British government, by its own admission, has not kept its commitments.

The IRA therefore, has suspended contact with the IICD.

Back in October 2001 they said

The Political process is now on the point of collapse.

Such a collapse would certainly and eventually put the overall peace process in jeopardy.

There is a responsibility upon everyone seriously committed to a just peace to do our best to avoid this.

Therefore, in order to save the peace process we have implemented the scheme agreed with the IICD in August.

Our motivation is clear.

This unprecedented move is to save the peace process and to persuade others of our genuine intentions.

Back in September 2001 they said

The subsequent actions of the British Government, including their failure to fulfill their commitments is also totally unacceptable.

The conditions therefore do not exist for progressing our proposition [August 2001 statement]. We are withdrawing our proposal.

Back in August 2001 they said

As a result of these discussions we can confirm that the IRA leadership has agreed a scheme with the IICD, which will put IRA arms completely and verifiably beyond use.

Back in March 2001 they said

As an earnest of our commitment and despite the British government the IRA leadership has decided to enter into further discussions with the IICD [Independent International Commission on Decommissioning].

This will be on the basis of the IRA leadership's commitment to resolving the issue [arms] contained in our statement of 6 May 2000 and on no other basis.

Back in December 2000 they said

The leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann want to reiterate our commitment to the resolution of the issue of arms and our view that this is a necessary step in a genuine peace process.

Back in May 2000 they said

The maintenance of our cessation is our contribution to the peace process and to the creation of a future in which the causes of conflict are resolved by peaceful means.

For our part the IRA leadership is committed to resolving the issue of arms.

the IRA leadership will initiate a process that will completely and verifiably put IRA arms beyond use. We will do it in such a way as to avoid risk to the public and misappropriation by others and ensure maximum public confidence.

We will resume contact with the IICD (Independent International Commission on Decommissioning) and enter into further discussions with the commission on the basis of the IRA leadership's commitment to resolving the issue of arms.

To facilitate the speedy and full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and the Government's measures our arms are silent and secure. There is no threat to the peace process from the IRA.

Back in February 2000 they said (See November 1999 as well for full impact)

"We have never entered into any agreement or undertaking or understanding at any time whatsoever on any aspect of decommissioning,"

Back in November 1999 they said

"The IRA is committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland.

"The IRA is willing to further enhance the peace process and consequently, following the establishment of the institutions agreed on Good Friday last year, the IRA leadership will appoint a representative to enter into discussions with General John De Chastelain and the IIC, (Independent International Commission on decomissioning)

Back in July 1999 they said

"Over the past five years we have called and maintained two prolonged cessations of military operations to enhance the peace process and underline our definitive commitment to its success.

"We have contributed in a meaningful way to the creation of a climate which would facilitate the search for a durable settlement.

Now theres a lot of reading there, so I hope youve managed to at least skim through it to understand that SFIRA have many, many, many, many times in the past said theyre the all singing all dancing peaceniks and that they are ready to decomission weapons. And they have withdrawn those undertakings just as easily when it suits them.

And here we are, years later and the same ****e is trotted out and Im supposed to be delighted? Honestly, I can understand why the Provo supporters are singing in the rain, because many of them have an irrational level of belief in Wee Gerrys word of honour. And many of the SFIRA support base are fairly young so this is all new and fresh to them. But I challenge you to point out whats *changed*? Point out SFIRA destroying their arms? Point out the SFIRA endorsing the PSNI and taking their seats on the policing panel? Really, I want nothing more than the end of terrorist mafia gangs in Northern Ireland, so when you can point out actions to back up the words Ill be as happy as anyone.

Anyone would want to be stupid to not notice the IRA have just changed their constitution dramatically.

As I understand it the SFIRA constitution can only be changed by a General Convention vote? Has one taken place - there has only been references to a consultitive proccess?
And regardless, does the constitution of a bunch of murderous killers mean all that much? Theyve managed to find ways around rules about criminality and dishonouring the organisation despite shameful atrocities.

I feel the Provisional IRA have done a superb job over the past 30+ years and have brought the British government to it's knees(to the negotiation table) and now it is time to let negotiation take over and leave Sinn Féin do their job.

Funny, I was under the impression that SFIRA just released a document of unconditional surrender?

There is good reason why they have not disbanded.

True, Id prefer if they didnt. They might try to shirk responsibility for the actions with some staged disbandment of de-linking from the SF front.

unfortunately if the IRA hadnt went to war 36 years ago, then someone would have gone to war either sometime between then and now or in the future over the way nationalists were being treated by the stormount government .. it had to happen

Nope it didnt. Take a look at the reforms achieved by the NICRA up to the early 70s, when SFIRAs campaign took over the debate - the level of reform was rapid, and then died off suddenly when SFIRA started murdering random civillians.

And whatever about defending Catholic areas killing 800 catholics, more than any other organisation wasnt a good way to set about it, nor can it be argued that attacks like Kingsmills were defending Catholic areas. Interesting point of note, the first RUC man killed in the Troubles was murdered by a Loyalist mob as the RUC kept them out of a Catholic area. Something to muse on when deciding that the RUC was rampaging along with the Loyalists and that there was no other options.

My question to you Sand is what are you going to say when the provos do put actions into words?

Isnt that what theyre doing now? Talking about what they will do? But not actually do it.

I'd also love it if they got Paisley to be one of the witnesses - though if asked he;d more than likely refuse since he wouldnt want to meet any of them taig boyos

Im sure hed love to be there. A kodak moment as it were.

Like Paisley your rants are becoming old, out dated, self serving, short sighted and boring.

Given your posts regarding Prodestants as being west brits Id imagine you and Paisley might get on better than you think.

You know what, I think Paisley and his friends in the DUP are running scared, they know that very soon all their excuses are going to be gone and their going to have to sit down at the same table as Gerry and Martin and anyone can see that they are 10 times more capable politician's than Ian and his little boy.

I think theyve been given an easy ride by journalists tbh. When they were briefly put under pressure and questioned early this year they fumbled about and made a hamse of their responses.

monument

Cork wrote:

This country has but one constitution - It has nothing to do with the IRA.

I am very interested in the internal workings of illegal organisations.

And you're reply has nothing to do with what he just said. He said 'the IRA', then said 'their' constitution...

Cork I'd like to know how you made the link between 'their' constitution and the Republic's constitution? Because there is no such link in the post you replied to.

Isn't there now rules banning off-topic one-line out bursts like this?

rsynnott

Cork wrote:

They have not disbanded. The Criminal Assets Bureau should sieze all illegal assets suspected of belonging to this gang. I hope they will get help on this by members of the public.
.

There'd be a terrible irony in an Irish law enforcement agency going into a non-Irish territory (NI) to seize the assets of a terrorist group who want Irish government in said territory...