IRA statement

tomMK1

Sand wrote:

Wow, Im stunned. I know I always had harsh words for SFIRA and their boring, long drawn out promises that actually turned out to mean nothing at all. This time however, Im actually lost for words at this historic and momentous statement. Unlike all the statements before, this basically solves the whole problem that killed the peace proccess.

I know look back with a wince at my prediction yesterday.... I mean, I didnt even predict it would be released by SF. Doh!





This is a new and bold move. I never heard of them doing this before...



Well, this of course meets the standards of verification requested by the DUP back in December. Certainly theyll have no problem not getting it this time either.





Arent SFIRA such heroes all the same?



We will never, never, never apologise. McConville got what was coming to her! Her family are ungrateful whingers!



And the Brits and the Prods! What a bunch of ungrateful tossers! We havent killed practically anyone! Well, relative to 1800 others we killed. Fecking McCartneys looking for justice. What makes them think theyre so special. Everyone else was grateful! Isnt a kneecapping good enough for them!



Vote SFIRA...wooops SF! We deeply respect our comrades - wholly seperate -sterling efforts.

Im distinctly underwhelmed by this statement. I was under the impression that the IRAs guns were silent, and that they were fully involved in the peace proccess and Im supposed to be impressed by them ...well saying what theyve said before? Big deal. Talk is cheap. SFIRA are well known liars and nothing has changed.

Did you notice how Sean Kelly was released with the statement? The *same* collaboration between the governments and the IRA to appease the extemists at the expense of the moderates actually involved in making peace. *Nothing* has changed. The same cowardice that will only embolden SFIRA. Northern Ireland is headed for very, very dark days indeed if this pattern of politically approved criminality and immunity from prosecution continues. Hain has to resign imo.

Ive read this trying to find something constructive to reply to, but i cant find anything. dark days? The IRA have done what people have asked - they've basically said they arent going to be involved in anything but peaceful pursuits, yet its not good enough for some. ahh well. Im still happy with the statement and i think that not only was it a brave move, but one others should follow.

flogen

DeVore wrote:

It'll be time to whip of the condoms lads and literally fúck them out of the country and thats what scares Paisley and his racists the most.
DeV.

We can all do our bit for a United Ireland!!

I don't know about holding a country by force. That may have been true a long time ago, but the fact is that a majory of whatever size still wants to be under British rule.
While a romantic side of me wants a United Ireland the rational part of me just wants the people of this island to stop acting like animals and start getting along. If that means that NI joins up with the Republic, so be it. If that means they stay part of Britain, so be it. If it means they become their own state with a new currency called The Paisley, so be it.
It's a bit of an ignorant solution to wait until the Nationalists outnumber the Unionists so we can out vote them, don't you think that will cause more trouble than it solves?

The statement is certainly going to change the dynamic of the situation and hopefully things will get moving. I'm sure both sides will still have some issues to complain about but the fact is that the IRA and most importantly the SF connection to it has always been the ultimate stumbling block for the Peace Process.

tomMK1

If it means they become their own state with a new currency called The Paisley, so be it.

Hydroquinone

DeVore wrote:

No civilised country can ignore the demands of its people to free and fair elections and referendums. You can BETCHA SF are drafting a call for referendum now on self-rule and ultimately rejoining the south. It may take 10 years, 20 even but currently the voting power of the two sides is balanced on a knife edge, but at the rate that catholics traditionally multiply, how long do you think that will last? Graph the respective populations over time and see what I mean.

THat sounds really good. Does it mean anything though? How many SF TDs are there? They can draft calls for a referendum from now till they're blue in the face, it doesn't mean we'll be getting one any time soon. All the SF politicians are intelligent, they know that any referendum would by no means have a predictable outcome, and they also know there won't be one for years yet. There's the same number of SF TDs today as there were yesterday and last week and probably next week. Have they had any success with any such calls before today?

And your remark about the traditional reproduction rate of Catholics is laughable. How many Catholics these days follow the Pope's guidance on baby making? Vanishingly few, otherwise where are all the families with twenty two children? Would you have 22 children?

flogen

Hydroquinone wrote:

THat sounds really good. Does it mean anything though? How many SF TDs are there? They can draft calls for a referendum from now till they're blue in the face, it doesn't mean we'll be getting one any time soon. All the SF politicians are intelligent, they know that any referendum would by no means have a predictable outcome, and they also know there won't be one for years yet. There's the same number of SF TDs today as there were yesterday and last week and probably next week. Have they had any success with any such calls before today?

And your remark about the traditional reproduction rate of Catholics is laughable. How many Catholics these days follow the Pope's guidance on baby making? Vanishingly few, otherwise where are all the families with twenty two children? Would you have 22 children?

I think under the GFA once Nationalists get a majority in Stormont they can call a referendum in the North, if that is defeated there will be another every 3 years (or something like that) until it is accepted. That's probably wat DeV was referring to.

Hydroquinone

flogen wrote:

I think under the GFA once Nationalists get a majority in Stormont they can call a referendum in the North, if that is defeated there will be another every 3 years (or something like that) until it is accepted. That's probably wat DeV was referring to.

Has Stormont even been reinstated yet? I do understand that people are very excited about the prospect of what this could all mean for all of us, of course I do. But baby steps are what's called for here, not huge big leaps of gay abandon. Because that's best way to be hugely disappointed when things don't happen as quickly as you first hoped.

supersheep

Hmmm... Rumour has it that the reason de Chastelaine is still in Ireland is to verify acts of decommissioning in the next few days. So that would be one point of the doubters solved.
And the key, pivotal words in this statement are "all other activities". If, as I hope and believe, this includes criminality, then we're away in a handbasket. It's the biggest step forward since... hmm... probably ever.

flogen

Hydroquinone wrote:

Has Stormont even been reinstated yet? I do understand that people are very excited about the prospect of what this could all mean for all of us, of course I do. But baby steps are what's called for here, not huge big leaps of gay abandon. Because that's best way to be hugely disappointed when things don't happen as quickly as you first hoped.

No it hasn't and it probably wont until next year (at the least). I dont think anyone is getting carried away, but if and when Stormont is open for business again, that's one of the conditions connected to it.

mike65

30 years a wasting (or learning?)

Mike.

supersheep

The Good Friday Agreement: Sunningdale for slow learners...

BCB

Today is one of the darkest days in the history of Irish Republicanism,the Provisional IRA areguilty of treason.They have surrendered to the very establishment that they spent decades fighting.

This is an insult to the many Volunteers who died for the cause of Irish Freedom,the Provos of today should be ashamed of themselves,ive no doubt there will be Volunteers who will defect to other Republican groupings and i applaud that.

Real Republicans will carry on the fight for Irish Unity,the sham of an agreement that is the Belfast Agreement will never ever achieve a United Ireland.

here are some quotes from the Sinn Fein leadership from 1986

"If at any time Sinn Fein decide to disown the armed
struggle they won't have me as a member." - Gerry
Adams, 1986 Ard Fheis

---

"Sadly, the inference that the removal of
abstentionism would lead to the demise of military
opposition to British rule has indeed called into
question the committment of the IRA to pursue this
struggle to a successful conclusion. I reject any such
suggestion, and I reject the notion that entering
Leinster House would mean an end to Sinn Féin's
unapologetic support for the right of Irish people to
oppose in arms the British forces of occupation. That,
my friends, IS A PRINCIPLE which a minority in this
hall might doubt, but which I believe all our
opponents clearly understand. Or position is clear,
and it will never, never, never change. The war
against British rule must continue until freedom is
achieved." - Martin McGuinness, 1986 Ard Fheis

BCB

TREASON

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

supersheep

I think Gerry Adams has been working towards this for the past fifteen to twenty years... The thing is, the Republican movement has never had a chance to drive the British out by force since the Civil War. 28th of June 1921 was the darkest day for Irish Republicanism. Since then, they've been fighting a loosing battle, and refusing to admit it... Now, maybe, they can change tactics to something that might work.
I'm wondering, are you an active member of a Republican paramilitary organisation? Cos if you're not, it's fairly easy to say "Oh yeah, let's continue the struggle..."

sceptre

BCB wrote:

Today is one of the darkest days in the history of Irish Republicanism,the Provisional IRA areguilty of treason.They have surrendered to the very establishment that they spent decades fighting.

No fair. I was going to use that as a troll on some other board sometime.

McGuinness also had the following to say in the very same speech you quoted: "By ignoring reality we remain alone and isolated on the high altar of abstentionism, divorced from the people of the 26 counties and easily dealt with by those who wish to defeat us. Such a situation cannot be allowed to continue and this leadership is charged with the responsibility to make our struggle more and more relevant to Irish people."

Perhaps, like Adams, he woke up one morning and figured that killing people isn't necessarily all that relevant to Irish people. Or threatening to kill people. It's rather a shame it didn't happen earlier. I'm half surprised that people haven't been dropping in references to the provos basically following the same ethos (broadly speaking and assuming they mean what they say) that the officials did thirty years earlier, even if the references were just dropped in a taunty trolly sense (don't bother by the way, guys).

Be a Real Republican if you like with two capital Rs. Everyone's got to have a hobby. I'm occasionally interested in old stuff from the 1920s myself.


As I've said above, in my view it's a step forward for Northern Ireland and all of us, albeit a step that could and should have come earlier. If they mean it, if they follow through. I rather hope they do. And as I said last January or February somewhere here, the extreme Paysleyites have rather a lot to fear from a Sinn Fein with no ties to an IRA that no longer acts and perhaps no longer exists. It's that bogeyman that's given them credence and power in the past three decades. The actual concept of them and the other shower sitting down for a cup of tea and a reasonable chat in the absence of a single large terrorist organisation on either side has the potential to take the existing stupidity and extremist rhetoric away from centre stage up North. Like it should be.

jank

jank wrote:

Id be interested to hear Sands view on this.

Why did I ever ask.

Stabshauptmann

BCB wrote:

TREASON

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

[quote=POBLACHT NA H EIREANN
___________________________
THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT
OF THE
IRISH REPUBLIC
TO THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND]
.....
We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible.
......[/quote]
Self determination, to have a say on how we are governed. Everyone on this Island has been granted this right. Those in the North have more say in governance than we in the south. I want devolved government throughout all Ireland.

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

Maybe this should have gone before the last bit and you would understand better that the unionists have the right under the 1916 proclamation to remain in the UK if they so wish. So long as being in the UK doesnt adversly effect the rights of the nationalists, which it did before the troubles.

Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent National, representative of the whole people of Ireland and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women, the Provisional Government, hereby constituted, will administer the civil and military affairs of the Republic in trust for the people.
.... we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, in humanity, or rapine.

The killers of Robert McCarthney commited Treason, they brought the Army into disripute. Those who use their position to smuggle and rob and consort with drug barons for personal gain commit treason.

The IRAs authority comes from the above proclamation. The IRAs mandate is only relavant untill such time as the people of Ireland, equal in all respects, decide for themselves their own future, provided that future bestows equal rights to everyone in respect to civil and religous liberties.
That time has come.

Our day has come.

Stabshauptmann

mike65 wrote:

30 years a wasting (or learning?)

Mike.

While the PIRA may have been opposed to Sunnigdale, the unionist population en masse rejected it. They refused to give up a position of privilage and the IRA were unwilling to settle for anything less than total victory.

Over the next 30 years the IRA learned that they could never achive total victory through violence and the unionists came to realise that peace and equality is much better than fear and death. Thats why they accepted the GFA, now that the IRAs out of the pivture (and it has been for the past 5 or 6 years) the unionists want their privilages back. The DUP preaches about "Protestants becoming second class citizens in their own country" and wins enough seats to be the largest party in NI.

Thomond Pk

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

The DUP preaches about "Protestants becoming second class citizens in their own country" and wins enough seats to be the largest party in NI.

Co-Operation Ireland research would bear this out and interestingly a parallel percentage of the Nationalist population felt that little had changed.

All in all this can only be regarded as a good day, we are all Europeans, live on the same Island and have to pay the mortgage.

I really hope that everyone excluding the DUP and Republican Sinn Fein (The antiques on Parnell St vs Parnell Sq) can start to build a future for the Island where issues like Tax, Health and Education form the basis of voter decisions.

Hobbes

Army has started to dismantle a watch tower in south Armagh. Also a report of "Security normalisation" due out soon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4726249.stm

Villain

jank wrote:

Why did I ever ask.

I don't know but I really wish you hadn't.

marco murphy

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

While the PIRA may have been opposed to Sunnigdale, the unionist population en masse rejected it. They refused to give up a position of privilage and the IRA were unwilling to settle for anything less than total victory.

Over the next 30 years the IRA learned that they could never achive total victory through violence and the unionists came to realise that peace and equality is much better than fear and death. Thats why they accepted the GFA, now that the IRAs out of the pivture (and it has been for the past 5 or 6 years) the unionists want their privilages back. The DUP preaches about "Protestants becoming second class citizens in their own country" and wins enough seats to be the largest party in NI.

I wish pasiley would die,then again his son is even worse.
The unionists have a chance now just to live in peace. Dont ruin it and dont let paisley ruin it.

marco murphy

BCB wrote:

Today is one of the darkest days in the history of Irish Republicanism,the Provisional IRA areguilty of treason.They have surrendered to the very establishment that they spent decades fighting.

This is an insult to the many Volunteers who died for the cause of Irish Freedom,the Provos of today should be ashamed of themselves,ive no doubt there will be Volunteers who will defect to other Republican groupings and i applaud that.

Real Republicans will carry on the fight for Irish Unity,the sham of an agreement that is the Belfast Agreement will never ever achieve a United Ireland.

here are some quotes from the Sinn Fein leadership from 1986

"If at any time Sinn Fein decide to disown the armed
struggle they won't have me as a member." - Gerry
Adams, 1986 Ard Fheis

---

"Sadly, the inference that the removal of
abstentionism would lead to the demise of military
opposition to British rule has indeed called into
question the committment of the IRA to pursue this
struggle to a successful conclusion. I reject any such
suggestion, and I reject the notion that entering
Leinster House would mean an end to Sinn Féin's
unapologetic support for the right of Irish people to
oppose in arms the British forces of occupation. That,
my friends, IS A PRINCIPLE which a minority in this
hall might doubt, but which I believe all our
opponents clearly understand. Or position is clear,
and it will never, never, never change. The war
against British rule must continue until freedom is
achieved." - Martin McGuinness, 1986 Ard Fheis

Hello BCB, i thought you were a shinner?

Genghis

Poblachtach wrote:

I wish pasiley would die,then again his son is even worse.
The unionists have a chance now just to live in peace. Dont ruin it and dont let paisley ruin it.

Paisleys son is acknowledged to be something of a lightweight and has nothing of the leadership, personality and conviction of his father - that by the way is the view of senior DUP members, and it is a position Ian jnr accepts (you will not see his name linked with the position his father holds when he steps down / dies).

I think there are progressive elements to the DUP just beneath the Paisley surface, and in fact if not in name they have already taken on much of the party leadership. I am talking here about Donaldson, Robinson, Dodds etc. I think these guys, while staunchly unionist, are practical. They are also younger and don't carry the same right-wing religious baggage the good Dr does. Robinson in particular proved himself to be a good minister for regional development during the Stormont assembly, a role that required him to operate in a cross-community and often cross-border capacity.

cal29

Hobbes wrote:

Army has started to dismantle a watch tower in south Armagh. Also a report of "Security normalisation" due out soon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4726249.stm

Army??? I tought they were on ceasefire

Hobbes

cal29 wrote:

Army??? I tought they were on ceasefire

British Army are pulling out looks like.

the_syco

[font=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"While the days of bombings may be over, I say members of the IRA involved in criminal activity will never make the transition to regular life.

If anything it'll be worse, because something might have been sanctioned from on high before. Now you have all these individuals who'll be free to do their own thing." [/font]

tomMK1

its seems to be accepted that members of the PIRA are involved in criminality - but wheres the proof for this? I accept some obviously are - as in there are criminals in all walks of life - but wheres this proof that lots of them are? ..... and vague quotes from the Indo wont do ....

Stabshauptmann

Hmm, reading about concerns over a rise in anti social behaviour I start thinking back to reports a few months ago of the PIRA handing over "civilian administration" to the INLA.

Also an Taoiseach's comments about the "IRA remaining as a commerative organisation".

And how quickly the British Army is dismantling its posts.

This has been planned out a very long time ago and I think its obvious that they're serious, the war is over.

Stabshauptmann

tomMK1 wrote:

its seems to be accepted that members of the PIRA are involved in criminality - but wheres the proof for this? I accept some obviously are - as in there are criminals in all walks of life - but wheres this proof that lots of them are? ..... and vague quotes from the Indo wont do ....

The IRA devotes an entire ofice in GHQ to fundraising. They dont run raffles.

axer

the_syco wrote:

[font=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]"While the days of bombings may be over, I say members of the IRA involved in criminal activity will never make the transition to regular life.

If anything it'll be worse, because something might have been sanctioned from on high before. Now you have all these individuals who'll be free to do their own thing." [/font]

But should the IRA be responsible for their actions?