IRA statement

GreenHell

flogen wrote:

I don't see the IRA's soon to be ex-members breaking off into new Republican groups but instead into criminal groups. Naturally though, that's not really anything the IRA leaders can account for unless they're found to be organising it.

As a matter of interest, while I understand that the IRA never recognised the state of Northern Ireland, does it recognise the existing republic? Or does it just recognise an all ireland republic with itself as the army and police?

Historically no. IRA being the army of republic declared in 1916.

This is all well and good but its the IRA and I'm going to adopt a I'll believe it when it happens attidute to the whole thing.

Genghis

GreenHell wrote:

Historically no. IRA being the army of republic declared in 1916.

This is all well and good but its the IRA and I'm going to adopt a I'll believe it when it happens attidute to the whole thing.

I thought the "IRA" today are actually the Provisional IRA, who themselves split from the original IRA at the start of the recent troubles? Republican Sinn Fein claim to be the real descendents of the old IRA and the old Sinn Fein, or am I wrong?

In either case, I think to answer your question, I don't think the IRA officially recognises either state or government on this island.

tomMK1

murphaph wrote:

Obviously not every 'volunteer' in the IRA and member of Loyalist paramilitary organisations is going to turn away from criminality, seeing as to lots of them it's their bread and butter.

I'd really honestly love to find this obvious proof that everyone else has seen thats convinced them that the majority of the provisional ira are criminals and do criminal activities. to date I havent seen it .. though ive heard jornalists tell me about the amazing houses in carrickmore in tryone - houses that i know for a fact dont actually exist. so maybe someone here can help me and give me a few links to this undisputable truth? (besides people saying it that is). we STILL have no proof on the robbery (which i have to say seems ot have been forgotton about), plus no more talk of the money laundering raids that apparently seemed to have snared more ordinary citizens than provo criminals - so besides heresay .... ahh, thats for a different thread maybe ...

Stabshauptmann

All splinters from the "origional"/"old" IRA claim to be the true decendants.
To answer the question, the PIRA recognises both states and that the Gardaí and defence forces are the only police and army of the republic.

tomMK1

Genghis wrote:

I thought the "IRA" today are actually the Provisional IRA, who themselves split from the original IRA at the start of the recent troubles? Republican Sinn Fein claim to be the real descendents of the old IRA and the old Sinn Fein, or am I wrong?

In either case, I think to answer your question, I don't think the IRA officially recognises either state or government on this island.

the official sinn fein turned into the workers party. the 'IRA' today could really include the INLA, RIRA, PIRA etc

GreenHell

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

All splinters from the "origional"/"old" IRA claim to be the true decendants.
To answer the question, the PIRA recognises both states and that the Gardaí and defence forces are the only police and army of the republic.

You sure about that? I'm not 100% on the politics of the IRA outside of 32 county republic but I'd almost swear that as a point do not recognise the authority of the gardaí or the ROI goverment.

Niall - Dahlia

Yet again it's Republicanism that reignites hope for peace on this island.

I'm just waiting for the next Unionist pre-condition. The ball's in their court now, let's see how much they want peace. I suspect they won't, they've had it too good for too long.

tomMK1

flogen - i dont think the IRA recognises the irish government as an entity considering that the first dail never re-met after the civil war - instead a dail not elected or derived from the one of 1917 or whatever took over, which to them was a false one - therefore everything the irish government has set up since (ie everything DeValera done) wasnt done in the name of irish unity or republicanism. somethign like that anyway

Villain

axer wrote:

ok ian.

ROFL

BuffyBot

There is no renunciation of their self-proclaimed right to indulge in 'community policing' and dispensing paramilitary beatings.

Indeed - that will be interesting to see. I would have read the statement as including their "community policing" activities, but I wonder do they see it ther same way.

I wouldnt expect any groups to emerge out of it as the last 3 months this statement has been discussed with all the grassroot members of the IRA.

I probably should have been clearer. I don't particularily mean CIRA/RIRA style splinters, but more groupings of some of the seedier members of the IRA (and don't try to tell me there aren't any) who just like delivering "community policing" and throwing their weight around.

Genghis

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

Yet again it's Republicanism that reignites hope for peace on this island.

I'm just waiting for the next Unionist pre-condition. The ball's in their court now, let's see how much they want peace. I suspect they won't, they've had it too good for too long.

Its been at least one generation since the unionists had it 'so good'. I can't believe that they are not pragmatic enough to be able to see that what has happened in the last 10 years (peace, stability, investment, growth) far exceeds what went immediately before (troubles, depression, anarchy). Furthermore, I don't think any unionist believes that the UK government will ever allow them the privileges they traditionally enjoyed pre-1969.

I don't think they will pass the opportunity for permanent peace - even the extremists in the DUP. What they may do is try to extract more. And fair play to them, thats what negotiation, dialogue and politics is all about.

tomMK1

There is no renunciation of their self-proclaimed right to indulge in 'community policing' and dispensing paramilitary beatings.

doesnt the statement say:

All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.

if punishment beatings arent peaceful then it would include them.

Niall - Dahlia

Genghis wrote:

Its been at least one generation since the unionists had it 'so good'. I can't believe that they are not pragmatic enough to be able to see that what has happened in the last 10 years (peace, stability, investment, growth) far exceeds what went immediately before (troubles, depression, anarchy). Furthermore, I don't think any unionist believes that the UK government will ever allow them the privileges they traditionally enjoyed pre-1969.

No, I don't mean economically, rightfully them days are over. I mean politically. They've been opponents to peace, denying Republicanism a legitimate voice in the matters of the 6 Counties, refusing to acknowledge Nationalists and Republicans as their equals, stalling peace on this island against the will of the majority, yet without sanction. That is having it good.

If they refuse in a similar vain in the coming weeks, and continue to hold the people of the 6 Counties to ransom with yet more demands, it will say a lot about the true intentions of Unionism.

Genghis

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

No, I don't mean economically, rightfully them days are over. I mean politically. They've been opponents to peace, denying Republicanism a legitimate voice in the matters of the 6 Counties, refusing to acknowledge Nationalists and Republicans as their equals, stalling peace on this island against the will of the majority, yet without sanction. That is having it good.

If they refuse in a similar vain in the coming weeks, and continue to hold the people of the 6 Counties to ransom with yet more demands, it will say a lot about the true intentions of Unionism.

I don't believe that ordinary Unionists have anything to gain politically either by stalling peace. They are governed from Westmister just as the nationalists are, and they enjoyed self-administration just as much as nationalists did when Stormont was running. They also know that the UK government will never allow them to become the exclusive ruling class in Northern Ireland again. They don't really have a choice. Besides come the next election, ordinary voters will let them know this - with the IRA 'out of business' there is now no excuse not to get on with things.

tomMK1

its the UK government who has the most to lose. they wont have the best guerilla warfare opposing army in the world anymore and wont be able to sell those services as their supply of ready trained troops would disappear

Genghis

tomMK1 wrote:

its the UK government who has the most to lose. they wont have the best guerilla warfare opposing army in the world anymore and wont be able to sell those services as their supply of ready trained troops would disappear

I dunno, tomMK1, seems to me that the UK government has been seeking out terrorists in other places to hone their skills ....

Stabshauptmann

GreenHell wrote:

You sure about that? I'm not 100% on the politics of the IRA outside of 32 county republic but I'd almost swear that as a point do not recognise the authority of the gardaí or the ROI goverment.

Yeah, the Irish government made a big deal out of it a few years ago. In 1986 the IRA and SF recognised the two states but as the peace process started to bloom the Irish Government wanted a statement acknowledging that there was only one army and one police force in the state; such a statement was made and repeated many times. Probably only lip service but it was made. No such statement has ever been made regarding NI.

As for who is the IRA, someone asked it, the PIRA is obvioulsy who the term refers to but I've compiled this list of republican revolutionary organisations for your reading pleasure:

* The 'Old' IRA, Proclaimed in the Easter Rising in 1916 and recognised by the First Dáil as the legitimate army of the Irish Republic in January 1919. Split into "regulars" (supported the Treaty, joined the Defence Forces or disbanded) and "irregulars" after the Treaty.
* The Official IRA (OIRA), the remainder of the "irregular" IRA after the Treaty, most of its members split to form the PIRA in 1969. Went on ceasefire in 1972.
* The Provisional IRA (PIRA), broke from the OIRA in 1969 over the latters failing to protect nationalist communities in NI, left wing orientation and increasing political activity; the term 'IRA' is almost always now used to denote this particular group.
* The Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), formed in 1974 from members expelled from the OIRA or those opposed to its 1972 ceasefire.
* The Continuity IRA (CIRA), broke from the PIRA in 1986 because the latter ended its policy on abstention (thus recognising the two states on the Island of Ireland).
* The Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO), formed in 1986 by disaffected and expelled members of the INLA in the aftermath of the supergrass trials.
* The 'Real' IRA (RIRA), a 1997 breakaway from the PIRA consisting of members opposed to the peace process.

The CIRA and RIRA have been effectivly wiped out by the security forces, the OIRA have long since faded away and the IPLO started feuding over drugs and were put out of commission by the PIRA.

As of now, the INLA is the only active revolutionary republican organistation on this Island.

Niall - Dahlia

Genghis wrote:

I don't believe that ordinary Unionists have anything to gain politically either by stalling peace. They are governed from Westmister just as the nationalists are, and they enjoyed self-administration just as much as nationalists did when Stormont was running. They also know that the UK government will never allow them to become the exclusive ruling class in Northern Ireland again. They don't really have a choice. Besides come the next election, ordinary voters will let them know this - with the IRA 'out of business' there is now no excuse not to get on with things.

They clearly have something to gain from stalling peace, as Unionist voters overwhelmingly chose the DUP over the UUP almost exclusively on the basis that their main mandate was not to share power with Republicans, as the UUP were doing.

When the IRA declared a ceasefire, Unionism demanded decommissioning. When the IRA declared decommissioning, Unionism demanded more proof. When the IRA agreed to monitoring by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, Unionism demanded complete disbandment.

Nothing to gain from stalling? I think history proves otherwise. If the Unionists want to stall and make an excuse, they will find something to maintain the imbalance of power. I hope for the sake of peace they choose to embrace what is the biggest step forward for peace in the history of Irish politics.

Genghis

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

They clearly have something to gain from stalling peace, as Unionist voters overwhelmingly chose the DUP over the UUP almost exclusively on the basis that their main mandate was not to share power with Republicans, as the UUP were doing.

That was in the absence of an IRA disbandment / disamament. The unionist electorate were punishing the UUP for not insisting on this before going into government with SF, and rewarding the DUP who promised they never would go back into government with SF until after disbandment. That reality has now changed "on paper", and will be verified and sustained come the next election day.

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

When the IRA declared a ceasefire, Unionism demanded decommissioning. When the IRA declared decommissioning, Unionism demanded more proof. When the IRA agreed to monitoring by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, Unionism demanded complete disbandment.

True. Now they have everything they wanted, they can't stall any longer (except maybe for time while the statement is verified by action).

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

Nothing to gain from stalling? I think history proves otherwise. If the Unionists want to stall and make an excuse, they will find something to maintain the imbalance of power. I hope for the sake of peace they choose to embrace what is the biggest step forward for peace in the history of Irish politics.

They are not maintaining any "imbalance of power". The unionists currently have as much power as nationalists or republicans - none. The UK government administers power directly from Westminster and in reality is far more likely to consider Bertie Aherns opinion on the North than (say) Ian Paisley in forming policy. That is the reality. It irks unionists as much as it does nationalists that they do not (like the rest of the UK and Ireland) govern themselves. When they embrace peace, then they get the power they desire.

jank

The DUP dont want to share power IMO. The would be just as happy if the were governed by westminister for the next 200 years.

Their view on it would be like a power sharing government that might lead to a united Ireland in the future. It makes sense to them to stick to their guns and stall everything and be continued to be governed by Westminister.

spikslow

big changes today, but i reckon some of the biggest changes will happen in the south. All the big parties are based on a nationalism that is now entirely overtaken by events. The PDs, FF and FG all now have no identity and the ties of nationalism that held together people, often with entirely incompatible political agendas, has evaporated. SF has a massive amount of political capital after this announcement, they can transform into anything they want to be. But the larger established parties face a difficult few years in a very fluid situation.

Fine Gael for instance encompasses extremes of right and left, they have marched together always with sneaking sideways looks of disgust but united over a view of nationalism which is now outdated.

FF has very much the same problem, these two parties have very little to divide them from each other or unite them internally, we could see a lot of reorganising in the decade to come.
great time to get involved

A Dub in Glasgo

Significant stuff today and it looks as if the long tunnel has light at the end of it.

Of course, for the usual suspects, this statement will not be enough.

jank

Yea thats spot on spikslow.
Id expect Sinn Fein to get a massive increase of votes in the election, thus FF will have no need for the PD's.

Liz McManus looked worried on the rte news @ one earlier and rightly so.

monument

I’m going to cautiously welcome today’s IRA statement.

The caution is for a number of reasons… 1) do they mean it; 2) will their members go along with it; 3) will the extremist groups’ support rise; 4) will any one give any body [apparent] reason to support the extremists...

But it would be brilliant if all goes well. And yes I do believe the statement (in its self) to be historic.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

* The Provisional IRA (PIRA), broke from the OIRA in 1969 over the latters failing to protect nationalist communities in NI, left wing orientation and increasing political activity; the term 'IRA' is almost always now used to denote this particular group.

tomMK1 wrote:

the official sinn fein turned into the workers party.

First to 'SF the Workers Party', then 'the Workers Party'. Then their eyes turn on the Labour party, and after taking control... PUFF! - as if by magic - they (the former tWP members) never had a paramilitary wing... and the activities of their paramilitary wing that occurred after the name changes (from claimed fundraising {violently robbing banks etc} to apparently taking pot shots at people who did not join them and went to the new SF at the time) never happened.

Just to be clear on this, Pat Rabbitte claims that while he was in the Workers Party he had no knowledge of their apparent paramilitary wing.

And before it’s used as a retort - a certain libel action taken by Proinsias De Rossa never came to the conclusion that the Workers Party never hand a paramilitary wing - it only found that De Rossa was libeled. To a point, with Garda evidence which was not disputed, the case actually enforced the belief that the Workers Party had an active paramilitary wing.

Ending I want to make it very clear that I am not stating, claiming, or implying, any wrong doing on behalf of De Rossa, Rabbitte, or others linked with the Workers Party. I’m just saying serious questions are still left unanswered.

murphaph

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

Yet again it's Republicanism that reignites hope for peace on this island.

I'm just waiting for the next Unionist pre-condition. The ball's in their court now, let's see how much they want peace. I suspect they won't, they've had it too good for too long.

What a load of tripe. The ball's still firmly in the IRA's court. We need to see the decommissioning take place, otherwise it's just another statement. There's talk of DeChastellain having been around a few dumps lately. Please God he's seen the good stuff being encased in concrete and reports back to that effect.

jank

murphaph wrote:

What a load of tripe. The ball's still firmly in the IRA's court.

How about the ball is still in the IRA's court for now but the Unionists are expecting a 150mph serve very very soon!

Hobbes

murphaph wrote:

What a load of tripe. The ball's still firmly in the IRA's court. We need to see the decommissioning take place, otherwise it's just another statement.

Absolutly as well as the "No other activities" they are going to be held to. Whats the Unionists going to do when the ball comes their way? Whine some more?

tomMK1

murphaph wrote:

What a load of tripe. The ball's still firmly in the IRA's court. We need to see the decommissioning take place, otherwise it's just another statement. There's talk of DeChastellain having been around a few dumps lately. Please God he's seen the good stuff being encased in concrete and reports back to that effect.

whats the everyones general view on decommissioning? personally i dont see the point of it really, since - though it is a nice PR stunt to say 'hey look! no arms!' - but really, guns can be bought when needed

jank

Id be interested to hear Sands view on this.

uberwolf

murphaph wrote:

What a load of tripe.

keep it civil.