Waterford City Boundary Extention into Co Kilkenny.

merlante

Another good point is that if the boundary proposal is accepted then south Kilkenny councillors will sit on Waterford City Council. The ability of these councillors to affect change in south Kilkenny from Waterford city hall instead of distant Kilkenny city would be greater, I would imagine.

South Kilkenny councillors would be pushing an open door trying to get Waterford City Co. to develop infrastructure in south Kilkenny, whereas Kilkenny Co. Co. seem to be loath to spend a penny this close to Waterford. (this same phenomenon can be seen with regard to Waterford Co. Co. being reluctant to spend money in east Waterford)

In my opinion, if you take the flags out of it, Waterford city and south Kilkenny both gain from the arrangement.

daithi

merlante wrote:

This is unbelievable! As you well know, the only reason that there will be any development in south Kilkenny is because the city is thriving and growing. Any revenue accruing from business in Waterford should go to the city. It is not right for this revenue to go elsewhere. We both know that the development that will inevitably happen in south Kilkenny will be generated by Waterford city, and where else but Waterford city, should this revenue go? The port should be building parks in Waterford city, not roundabouts in Kilkenny city. This is not a point of view, this is a fact!

If this is the case should dublin start making moves for bray? etc etc
Waterford probably should have a port, but you cant expect kilkenny to start playing fair now, Its getting a lot nastier than i expected, I would suggest that anybody interested in this topic, and making constructive input, and not trolling, should look at the front page of the kilkenny people this week, the comments are quite rough, maybe a little uncalled for, but it does reflect the level of outrage felt by kilkenny, i would however like to distance myself from some of the remarks made, however there are some very valid points made by current councillors which i would agree with.

daithi

People of south kilkenny pay lower rates than their waterford counterparts, just thought id throw that in too, read it in todays kk people.

mire

sad sad sad

mention in today's papers about comments from former Chairperson from Kilkenny County Council who compared the (perfectly logical and legal) attempts by Waterford City Council to expand their administrative boundary to Hitler and his henchmen and said thay are acting like Nazi's

i rest my case

merlante

daithi wrote:

If this is the case should dublin start making moves for bray? etc etc
Waterford probably should have a port, but you cant expect kilkenny to start playing fair now, Its getting a lot nastier than i expected, I would suggest that anybody interested in this topic, and making constructive input, and not trolling, should look at the front page of the kilkenny people this week, the comments are quite rough, maybe a little uncalled for, but it does reflect the level of outrage felt by kilkenny, i would however like to distance myself from some of the remarks made, however there are some very valid points made by current councillors which i would agree with.

In fairness, Bray is a town in its own right, and not just a collection of people that moved to an area as part of a contiguous outward development of a larger urban area that just happened to pass a county boundary. (although I accept that many rural Kilkenny people have lived in south Kilkenny for generations) Dublin's boundary has been changed in the last while to cater for the expansion of towns such as Leixlip, iirc. Likewise, Drogheda has expanded into Meath.

Some of the comments made in the Kilkenny people and by some Kilkenny councillors seriously worry me, sometimes...

merlante

mire wrote:

sad sad sad

mention in today's papers about comments from former Chairperson from Kilkenny County Council who compared the (perfectly logical and legal) attempts by Waterford City Council to expand their administrative boundary to Hitler and his henchmen and said thay are acting like Nazi's

i rest my case

Some of us have a rule regarding debates/arguments, that is more sensible than it initially appears: the first party to mention Hitler automatically looses.

It's a good rule!

kilkennycat2004

Cabaal wrote:

In fairness it is all about money, its nothing about offering better goods/services to people in the area.
I'm sure Waterford CoCo will move some people from Ballybeg out to the area once they acquire it, as a kind of welcome

Its a selfish attempt at land grabbing by an authority who can't even decide which of the three city wards to put travellers in when they had already decided it would be policy for all three of them.
Solution may even be sure we'll fcuk them out to the former South kilkenny along with the new city dump which we hadn't the gumption to plan for previously either.
CO-operation yes, if they wan't to go down that proper route but based on the current efforts not an inch it will have to be.

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Its a selfish attempt at land grabbing by an authority who can't even decide which of the three city wards to put travellers in when they had already decided it would be policy for all three of them.
Solution may even be sure we'll fcuk them out to the former South kilkenny along with the new city dump which we hadn't the gumption to plan for previously either.
CO-operation yes, if they wan't to go down that proper route but based on the current efforts not an inch it will have to be.

"Land grabbing". I see the party line is sinking in big time, and the rhetoric and phraseology is coming into its own now. Why would Waterford want to grab land just for the sake of it?

Waterford is continually investing money in south Kilkenny, housing, gas & port, because it is expanding in that direction: that's why it wants to administer the place.

You may not agree with it, but this "land grabbing" rubbish is ridiculous.

kilkennycat2004

merlante wrote:

"Land grabbing". I see the party line is sinking in big time, and the rhetoric and phraseology is coming into its own now. Why would Waterford want to grab land just for the sake of it?
Waterford is continually investing money in south Kilkenny, housing, gas & port, because it is expanding in that direction: that's why it wants to administer the place. You may not agree with it, but this "land grabbing" rubbish is ridiculous.

I see you conveniently didn't deal with the other points I raised.
On travellers issue & landfill the usual councillor line is, " not in my ward anyway."
Are you telling me that KK would not be at least threatened with the, apologies more Nazism here, "final solution" to these issues.
The people of South KK have no ambition to ever became anything other than neighbours of those in Waterford city.

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

I see you conveniently didn't deal with the other points I raised.
On travellers issue & landfill the usual councillor line is, " not in my ward anyway."
Are you telling me that KK would not be at least threatened with the, apologies more Nazism here, "final solution" to these issues.
The people of South KK have no ambition to ever became anything other than neighbours of those in Waterford city.

Unfortunately I am not an expert on every single little issue that people mention on discussion boards. What you seem to be saying is that no councillor in Waterford wants travellers in their ward. I presume that you are not saying that councillors in any other ED in any other city or county would be any different? I don't see why south Kilkenny would be under any greater "risk" of getting a halting site in Waterford than in Kilkenny; south Kilkenny would have equal political representation whether they are in Kilkenny Co. Co. or Waterford City Co.

Your "final solution" comment, although in jest, only serves to make the anti-boundary case more ridiculous.

I don't think that you can speak for all south Kilkenny people, considering there are a significant number of Waterford people living in south Kilkenny too. Plus, lower house prices in south Kilkenny will make south Kilkenny more urban regardless of anything that either council does anyway.

kilkennycat2004

merlante wrote:

I don't think that you can speak for all south Kilkenny people, considering there are a significant number of Waterford people living in south Kilkenny too. Plus, lower house prices in south Kilkenny will make south Kilkenny more urban regardless of anything that either council does anyway.

To my knowledge people in KK have no issue with Waterford people either living, shopping or working amongst them. The amount of Waterfordians which critice KK people operating in the opposite direction is IMHO unparalleled in the 26 counties.
There has always been co-operation between the two counties in said area but unfortunately the actions of Waterford has probably killed that for a while.
I'm familiar with Waterford politics having lived here for 15 years but I still spend a lot of time out "home". You cannot expect to draw a line on a map & expect 5,000 people to overnight lose three or four generations of county heritage. It will not happen. South Kilkenny will be remaining just that & all this action will do is ensure more expenses to councillors & man hours wasted on an issue when we could be working together for university status, improved regional airport facilities & many other things of mutual benefit.

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

To my knowledge people in KK have no issue with Waterford people either living, shopping or working amongst them. The amount of Waterfordians which critice KK people operating in the opposite direction is IMHO unparalleled in the 26 counties.

Politically, Kilkenny has stabbed Waterford in the back at every opportunity. It makes no secret of the fact that it wants the Regional Hospital to relocate to Kilkenny, its insistence on trying to get a south east university located in Kilkenny, instead of Waterford, (in the past) has done huge damage to the university campaign. It has called Waterford people everything from land grabbers to Nazis. It begrudges every development in Waterford and views even the hint of prosperity in Waterford with bitterness and jealousy. The state of the Dublin road from Waterford is almost proverbial, and has been left in that state deliberately.

The Kilkenny people themselves are obviously fine, if sometimes a little smug when it comes to hurling, it is the establishment I am talking about. As far as politics is concerned, all the agro is on the Kilkenny side. As for grassroots level, I know Waterford people can be desperate and pretty abusive, maybe because of the above, or because of hurling banter gone sour. It takes two to tango, though, and this sort of sentiment cannot be kept alive by one side alone. It doesn't help anyone.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

There has always been co-operation between the two counties in said area but unfortunately the actions of Waterford has probably killed that for a while.
I'm familiar with Waterford politics having lived here for 15 years but I still spend a lot of time out "home". You cannot expect to draw a line on a map & expect 5,000 people to overnight lose three or four generations of county heritage. It will not happen. South Kilkenny will be remaining just that & all this action will do is ensure more expenses to councillors & man hours wasted on an issue when we could be working together for university status, improved regional airport facilities & many other things of mutual benefit.

Kilkenny refused to negotiate on the boundary extension. When one side refuses to negotiate there cannot be compromise. Kilkenny cannot be trusted not to do something crazy just outside Waterford anyway. The attempt to build a huge shopping centre outside of Waterford, (on a scale far beyond what would cater for the population) on the Kilkenny side, was nothing other than a scurrilous attempt to pull shoppers out of Waterford city. Though obviously south Kilkenny needs a shopping centre badly.

I have sympathy for people whose families have been Kilkenny for generations. I think that the boundary change should be administrative only, with south Kilkenny remaining in Kilkenny for geographical and GAA reasons. Still it doesn't look like they'll do it that way. Unfortunately though, with the way the country is developing, the cities will get larger and if the planning is not right, the next generation will not be too understanding of the very real sentimental (and I'm not being patronising here) concerns that many south Kilkenny people have. We can't stop people from Waterford and Kilkenny moving in to south Kilkenny as part of an extending, contiguous, urban development, and it makes sense if one council manages it.

kilkennycat2004

merlante wrote:

The attempt to build a huge shopping centre outside of Waterford, (on a scale far beyond what would cater for the population) on the Kilkenny side, was nothing other than a scurrilous attempt to pull shoppers out of Waterford city. Though obviously south Kilkenny needs a shopping centre badly..

I know several people in the Ferrybank area & a shopping centre is needed in the worst of a way for the people living north of the bridge .
Why should people have to cross a bridge, and clog up a city centre that cannot take the traffic anyway, into another county when it is financially viable to have a shopping centre in the very area they live in? Seems a very ligit requirement to me.
The points you raised about roads are somewhat valid. However for many years funding was not available & over the last 10 it was always on the cards for the motorway so obviously the exciting one was only to get touch ups rather than revamps.
The paw prints all over this plan are that of greed & having the likes of Councillor Hayes blab on about how KK needs Waterford city council running it is arrogant in the extreme.
What's the difference between the shopping complex in Ardkeen which was allowed & the one in Ferrybank to which the Deise county constantly object to? Fairly obvious answer I would suggest.

Maharet

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

I know several people in the Ferrybank area & a shopping centre is needed in the worst of a way for the people living north of the bridge....
....What's the difference between the shopping complex in Ardkeen which was allowed & the one in Ferrybank to which the Deise county constantly object to? Fairly obvious answer I would suggest.

It is needed and Waterford City Council will have to build one when the boundary changes.
Yes, the size of it from all accounts was the problem.

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

I know several people in the Ferrybank area & a shopping centre is needed in the worst of a way for the people living north of the bridge .
Why should people have to cross a bridge, and clog up a city centre that cannot take the traffic anyway, into another county when it is financially viable to have a shopping centre in the very area they live in? Seems a very ligit requirement to me.
The points you raised about roads are somewhat valid. However for many years funding was not available & over the last 10 it was always on the cards for the motorway so obviously the exciting one was only to get touch ups rather than revamps.
The paw prints all over this plan are that of greed & having the likes of Councillor Hayes blab on about how KK needs Waterford city council running it is arrogant in the extreme.
What's the difference between the shopping complex in Ardkeen which was allowed & the one in Ferrybank to which the Deise county constantly object to? Fairly obvious answer I would suggest.

I knew that you would deliberately misunderstand, misrepresent and misconstrue my argument on the shopping centre, even as I wrote it, and even as I added, "Though obviously south Kilkenny needs a shopping centre badly." I knew I would be lectured to as to how badly south Kilkenny needs a shopping centre. :mad:

South Kilkenny needs a shopping centre on the scale of the Ardkeen centre. South Kilkenny does not need a shopping centre on the scale of Liffey Valley. You will surely agree that if Kilkenny had got their way over over this Liffey Valley scale shopping centre then hordes of people from Waterford city would go out there to shop and the bridge would be gridlocked at all times! Having most of the people on one side of the river and one of the biggest shopping centres on the other is blatantly bad planning! In order to try to stop these scandalous proposals in future, Waterford city wants to administer the area.

If there was no money, why are the roads in other counties so much better?

Now, I would hope that you would actually read my response this time, and maybe even read the rest of the thread, so that I don't have to repeat myself anymore. If you have anything new to add, then go ahead.

kilkennycat2004

merlante wrote:

South Kilkenny needs a shopping centre on the scale of the Ardkeen centre. South Kilkenny does not need a shopping centre on the scale of Liffey Valley. You will surely agree that if Kilkenny had got their way over over this Liffey Valley scale shopping centre then hordes of people from Waterford city would go out there to shop and the bridge would be gridlocked at all times!
If there was no money, why are the roads in other counties so much better?

Did it ever occur to you that KK council were planning ahead for future housing developments in the region? Unlike what can be witnessed at say the folly & superquinn roundabouts each day for example.
Waterford CC were just being deliberately obstreperous by creating diversions to more or less stagnate that particular area.
As to Waterford people leaving the city in droves to shop!! Get real. Do you ever cross the bridge at all? Its a journey to avoid if at all possible.
Both Waterford & Kilkenny have always punched below their weight for central funding with lots of yes men elected hence the region being run down roadwise when compared to Limerick, Galway & Cork. This is a dead issue now as the much needed motorway will actually happen.
The bottom line is Waterford want the port area for financial reasons & have come up with a few cock & bull stories in an attempt to justify themselves.

mire

judging from the recent "Nazi" "Hitler" "not an Inch" comments and some of the pathetic scaremongering coming from Kilkenny, if the procedures are followed and a decision is taken by the Dept of Enviornment + Local Government to grant the borough boundary extension, Kilkenny Councillors will simply have to accept the decision - will there be an uprising, mass exodus out of ferrybank, major humanitarian disaster?

And kilkennycat2004, some day you should re-read your posts and be suitably embarrassed - you have not once mentioned a single reasonable argument against the proposal - from either a planning or local government point of view - you rely on pure hysteria - grow up

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that KK council were planning ahead for future housing developments in the region? Unlike what can be witnessed at say the folly & superquinn roundabouts each day for example.
Waterford CC were just being deliberately obstreperous by creating diversions to more or less stagnate that particular area.

Don't be ridiculous, that shopping centre was far beyond the scale of what would be required by south Kilkenny for many years to come. It could only have survived by pulling Waterford shoppers across the river.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

As to Waterford people leaving the city in droves to shop!! Get real. Do you ever cross the bridge at all? Its a journey to avoid if at all possible.

OMG, are you deliberately trying to confuse and misunderstand my posts? I'll say it again for you, and you can read it as slow as you like: IF the shopping centre had of gone ahead, at the scale that was proposed, it would have been so large that the only way it could have survived was by tempting shoppers out of Waterford.

The traffic on the bridge, and elsewhere, would go up drastically, hence bad planning!

Once again, in case you've forgotten: Ardkeen style development in south Kilkenny = GOOD PLANNING.
Liffey Valley style development in south Kilkenny = BAD PLANNING.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

The bottom line is Waterford want the port area for financial reasons & have come up with a few cock & bull stories in an attempt to justify themselves.

Waterford want the port area because it's Waterford Port - do you see a conflict or a problem there? The fact that the port currently falls outside of Waterford because of some border anomaly makes my argument for me.

As for cock & bull stories: don't judge our politicians by the standards of your own. We want to develop our city naturally and wouldn't bother a soul if it weren't absolutely necessary. Our council will never call you Nazis, they will never campaign for infrastructure to be moved from Kilkenny to Waterford and they have no interest in backstabbing their neighbours or saboutaging their roads!

odie

Where's me pike, coz some of these waterfordians need a poke in the rear. Lets face it, kilkennycat2004 is right, wd CC are merely looking to turn south kilkenny into their dumping ground, travellers, a dump, an incinerator, social housing and thats just for starters.

There was a time when our grandfathers kicked out the land grabbers years ago, then the state was born back in the 20's now the Redmondites, and their ilk are trying the same thing in the 21st century. I am afraid, it's in our nature to defend our heritage, therefore the Kilkenny Cats will be chewing up and spitting out the Waterford rats if they attempt to move the boundary.

Fair play to our councillors for defending our position, but then again thats why they were voted in.

As for Kilkenny investing in infrastructure, these are not decisions taken at a local level, but at Government level, ministers such as Martin Cullen (oh yeah, he's a waterfordian), who have strangled practically any initiatives by Wexford and KK CC's.

Also on the shopping centre issue, it is no more than what the Dunmore Road and urban area around Lisduggan have and they have similar populations, so that argument doesn't hold water.

And kilkennycat2004 is correct on the issue about the Wards in WD, the councillors can't even commit to their own guidelines regarding decisions made for them. ( too numerous to mention). We are reasonably happy with our lot on this side of the bridge, we don't want a bunch of city councillors coming over and making a mess of things here, they have enough to do covering up the messes on blaa's side.

merlante

odie wrote:

Where's me pike, coz some of these waterfordians need a poke in the rear. Lets face it, kilkennycat2004 is right, wd CC are merely looking to turn south kilkenny into their dumping ground, travellers, a dump, an incinerator, social housing and thats just for starters.

This sort of crazed attitude will put off Waterford City Council much more than your nonsense arguments.

kilkennycat2004

merlante wrote:

This sort of crazed attitude will put off Waterford City Council much more than your nonsense arguments.

WE have no interest in what selfish plans Waterford county council have for the south KK area. It will be fought tooth & nail & I doubt if any of your Waterford councillors will have the gumption to deal with the backlash at a higher level when it happens.
In fairness Sinn Fein are already very active & this policy if it were to go ahead would result in obvious punishment for government parties & possibly a domino effect of a first ever shinner TD in Carlow-Kilkenny .
Can't see Bertie going for that.

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

WE have no interest in what selfish plans Waterford county council have for the south KK area. It will be fought tooth & nail & I doubt if any of your Waterford councillors will have the gumption to deal with the backlash at a higher level when it happens.
In fairness Sinn Fein are already very active & this policy if it were to go ahead would result in obvious punishment for government parties & possibly a domino effect of a first ever shinner TD in Carlow-Kilkenny .
Can't see Bertie going for that.

You guys are nuts! :eek:

merlante

Thankfully we have a central government that will decide all of this and they will decide the case on the basis of its merits.

If only some of you would put as much effort into getting a university for the south east as you're putting into this border fight, then we'd all be better off, and the next generation would be more grateful to you.

This sort of nasty, bitter attitude that we're seeing here is sickening, to be honest. I can understand people being county proud but the sort of bile that is being spewed is uncalled for.

We were all the one before the English made the boundaries lads!

mike65

Could someone here mention Hilter then I can invoke Godwins Law. Oh they already did. Thread closed. If and when there are fresh developments a new thread can be opened.

Mike.