Waterford City Boundary Extention into Co Kilkenny.

mike65

You may have seen the ads in the papers this week. The details can be found here

Main proposal and justification here

Mike.

AdMMM

I bet the Killkennian's won't like that

Marcopolo85

mike65 wrote:

You may have seen the ads in the papers this week. The details can be found here

Main proposal and justification here

Mike.

Sure they're all bloody well working here - they may as well live here as well!!!!!

merlante

Very interesting, and very sensible. There'll be war over it though, although it is the best thing for everyone, all flag waving aside.

mike65

You can listen to a discussion on the subject on Liveline here (right click and Save As...) Scroll forward 31 mins.

Mike.

Cabaal

STOP invading Kilkenny!

Marcopolo85

Cabaal wrote:

STOP invading Kilkenny!

But sure they've been invading us for decades!! Payback!!!!!

mike65

South Kilkenny has been neglected disgracefully by the Burgurs in the City (town) for years and so should be glad we are happy to take you under our wing.

I'm sure the county jersey issues can be sorted out.

Mike.

merlante

mike65 wrote:

South Kilkenny has been neglected disgracefully by the Burgurs in the City (town) for years and so should be glad we are happy to take you under our wing.

I'm sure the county jersey issues can be sorted out.

Mike.

This is true. It's a pity that all of the advantages, in terms of getting cars taxed nearby, getting much cheaper disposal charges, getting better services, etc., will all be ignored in favour of hurling logic and flag waving! The people up in Kilkenny city/town couldn't care less about south Kilkenny, and consider it Waterford anyway, yet South Kilkenny are steadfastly loyal to Kilkenny Co. Council despite the abysmal provision of services, the dreadful roads they have been left with, and the scorn that those from the north of the county have for them.

The simply fact is that Waterford would do a lot more for south Kilkenny than Kilkenny ever would!

angry_fox

merlante wrote:

This is true. It's a pity that all of the advantages, in terms of getting cars taxed nearby, getting much cheaper disposal charges, getting better services, etc., will all be ignored in favour of hurling logic and flag waving! The people up in Kilkenny city/town couldn't care less about south Kilkenny, and consider it Waterford anyway, yet South Kilkenny are steadfastly loyal to Kilkenny Co. Council despite the abysmal provision of services, the dreadful roads they have been left with, and the scorn that those from the north of the county have for them.

The simply fact is that Waterford would do a lot more for south Kilkenny than Kilkenny ever would!

That is true, as long as they dont build a load of new council housing esates around Slieverue.

But part of me still think its wrong, for some reason.....

thund3rbird_

(going on another thread in here) the infamous McCann rears his ugly* head

*disclaimer - I've never seen, nor want to, a pic of him

Serious Q tho - is it possible he could object to something like this?

merlante

thund3rbird_ wrote:

(going on another thread in here) the infamous McCann rears his ugly* head

*disclaimer - I've never seen, nor want to, a pic of him

Serious Q tho - is it possible he could object to something like this?

You wouldn't know it, but there is actually a limit to his unelected, autocratic power. He only holds sway over the construction, knocking and modification of buildings.

The procedure for changing the boundary is roughly as follows,
a) The relevant councils try to agree on a boundary extension proposal. (not going to happen, but not actually required)
b) The proposal is submitted to the Minister for the Environment by one or both (all) councils.
c) The Minister for the Environment says yay or nay.
d) If the Minister agrees, it is submitted to the President, who then gives a yay or nay. (presumably the President goes along with the government)

odie

They are gonna have some job getting this through to Kilkenny county council.

Not to mention the The Peoples Republic Liberation Army of South Kilkenny.

Come on "The Stripey Men" Rise up, and take it to the Blaa's.

I can see the lads buying the pikes already. 1798 rebellion all over again.

Marcopolo85

odie wrote:

They are gonna have some job getting this through to Kilkenny county council.

Not to mention the The Peoples Republic Liberation Army of South Kilkenny.

Come on "The Stripey Men" Rise up, and take it to the Blaa's.

I can see the lads buying the pikes already. 1798 rebellion all over again.

South Kilkenny or Waterford.........fly and elephant comes to mind! They'll always need us way more than we'll ever need them!!

Norinoco

In fairness, the proposed amount of land waterford want to take completly exceeds the amount required to extend the city.

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/notices.htm

Its a case of been greedy.

Its nothing to do with being beneficial to people living just over the river from the city and all to do the getting the port of Waterford.

Its all about the money...

Waterford City Council are going to get a fight!

merlante

Norinoco wrote:

In fairness, the proposed amount of land waterford want to take comlpetly exceeds the amount required to extend the city.

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/notices.htm

Its a case of been greedy.

Its nothing to do with being beneficial to people living just over the river from the city and all to do the getting the port of Waterford.

Its all about the money...

Waterford City Council are going to get a fight!

The last time, they took almost as large a chunk from the south side, and it's half occupied already. Waterford city has been unnaturally confined to the south side of the river by gombeen politics - where else only in Ireland would this happen?

And as for your ridiculous argument about greed. Half of Waterford is already living over there, the Port of Waterford is officially in Kilkenny, Waterford City Council housing is being built in Kilkenny, Waterford put gas into south kilkenny, and now, if the proposal is put through Waterford City Council will be *poorer*. They will have less cash because the population density of the added townlands will be less than those south of the river, yet they will have to maintain a lot more roads, etc.

Waterford will want to expand because Kilkenny are ****ing around on the outskirts of the city, messing up the city development plan, and are taking revenue from Waterford Port. The city will expand whether it is owned by Waterford City Council or not - people are buying houses out there, simple as that. It is ridiculous to have Kilkenny County Council administering part of Waterford city.

What would the population of Ferrybank and the surrounding areas be if Waterford city did not exist. It would be '0' or very close to it.

Bards

May I remind South Kilkenny people that the "Port of Waterford" (it is not called port of Kilkenny) has always been in Waterford City until they moved down river to Bellview to allow them expand.

The City will only be regaining what was theirs all along. This is a red-herring and should be seen as such

googie

I think there would definitely be advantages for the areas involved but instead of handing over part of the county to waterford the people of those areas should be campaigning to be better serviced by kilkenny county council, who are probably the laziest least productive in the country. these areas are becoming increasingly populated and need to be accommodated accordingly. I am from part of south kilkenny not involved in the border extension and would hate to see part of the county just changing over to becoming part of waterford, but would be concerned about the future development and maintenance of these areas while they remain the responsability of kilkenny co. co.

Marcopolo85

Norinoco wrote:

In fairness, the proposed amount of land waterford want to take completly exceeds the amount required to extend the city.

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/notices.htm

Its a case of been greedy.

Its nothing to do with being beneficial to people living just over the river from the city and all to do the getting the port of Waterford.

Its all about the money...

Waterford City Council are going to get a fight!

Odd comment that. Greedy? Kilkenny CoCo have been more than obvious in their attempts to stifle the development of Waterford City down through the years (look at the Road from Paulstown to Waterford City). This is an honest attempt to allow the City to grow as radially as naturally possible.

There is a real danger now (with a super motorway to way beyond Arklow) that the NRA may choose to divert the motorway via the East Coast. The big losers? Kilkenny.

Yes - gombeen politics (and shades of jerseys) are what's driving this. But I think the people perpetuating this are more to be pitied. It (boundary extension) WILL happen....that's a certainty.

daithi

A lot of the reason why the roads are undeveloped is in part down to funding, Its the government/EU etc that pay for this, lobbing etc is a good consideration though.
The fact that waterford opposed a shoppin centre in ferrybank last year, which was approved by kilkenny county council is a sore point. the argument that an bord pleanala refused it is not valid as if was refused based on the objection from waterford.
Kilkenny Gaa have already passed a motion saying kk Gaa that they will not recognise any border move, however KK county council chairman Cllr Martin Shorthall did offer a few coaches if the deise are that stuck for hurling talent

Regarding people from kilkenny working in waterford, if the people from kilkenny/wexford were not better at the jobs than the people from waterford, then they would not be employed, its not kk's fault we have a higher skilled workforce. Its a bit like people from dublin complaining about the rest of the country taking 'their' jobs.
Taking the port especially, is just greed. What is required is participation between councils, which has been demonstrated in the past.
The only thing i think anybody from kilkenny would accept might be a correction in the borderline where the situation where peoples front and back doors are in different counties, and things like the county line passing through the middle of Ard Ri might be resolved. What i am talking about is 50/50 give and take.
The idea that one county can just invade another and take 6% of the population is ridiculous. When the size of the enlargement is compared to the existing size of waterford city, it can be viewed as nothing but pure greed in my oppinion.

Trotter

Norinoco wrote:

In fairness, the proposed amount of land waterford want to take completly exceeds the amount required to extend the city.

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/notices.htm

Its a case of been greedy.

Its nothing to do with being beneficial to people living just over the river from the city and all to do the getting the port of Waterford.

Its all about the money...

Waterford City Council are going to get a fight!

A proper fight like... with pikes and sticks????? While the KK lads are preparing for this said battle on the bridge (After asking for time off work in Waterford to do so) the rest of us will be laughing at them. :rolleyes:

Grow up.. if the bridge was closed tomorrow morning, Kilkenny would have 80% unemployment and plenty of time to gripe. Kilkenny needs Waterford more than the other way around.

NOW! Up on the ditch and start slappin padaytas off the Wawford B****rds!

Give me a break lol

Cabaal

In fairness it is all about money, its nothing about offering better goods/services to people in the area.
I'm sure Waterford CoCo will move some people from Ballybeg out to the area once they acquire it, as a kind of welcome

AdMMM

The Killkenny People this week has the headline on the front page "NOT AN INCH".

Dilbert75

In one respect I agree with Daithi, in that if KK/WX people weren't good enough, they wouldn't have their jobs in WD. However, the fact that all new jobs are virtually forced (by IDA / Govt policy) to set up in the central location of WD, without any thought to the infrastructure needed to support that population, is classic Irish (lack of) planning. KK/WX people are not taking WD jobs, they took ours and we're just taking them back!

When I read about this last week, I brought in the clipping to work. You should have seen the faces on the KK colleagues when I asked them to picture their kids playing hurling in blue and white!!

odie

Since when was this a jobs issue, I thought it was a boundary issue. It seems to me that when the WD men are presented with an argument all they can ever come up with as an argument is the Bridge/jobs issue.

You have to pity them really.

Thats why the KK/WX lads get the jobs, because they can conceive a decent argument and discuss it rationally.

Now where is me fecking pike......

Go on the Stripey Men, whip another munster team this weekend.

daithi

Excellent Point Dilbert, KK people need not worry about playing in the BLue and White, the Gaa in KK have passed a motion to ignore any border changes, and continue playing as normal. Further complicating this issue, but making the sentiment of Kilkenny Folk very clear.
I doubt any one would have it any other way, Even though its virtually impossible to get on the Kilkenny team, even for those already on the panel, they still want in.
Sorry for dragging up the hurling, bit of a sore point with the deise, but TBH, i wanted ye to beat them Cork Langers.

merlante

daithi wrote:

The fact that waterford opposed a shoppin centre in ferrybank last year, which was approved by kilkenny county council is a sore point. the argument that an bord pleanala refused it is not valid as if was refused based on the objection from waterford.

There was a very good reason for this. The Waterford point of view is that south Kilkenny should have the same service provision as the Dunmore road area, in Ardkeen, or the Lisduggan area, in the (about to be redeveloped) Waterford shopping centre. Nobody is saying that south Kilkenny shouldn't be just as provided for as these areas.

But what did this crowd want to do in south Kilkenny? They wanted to build a shopping centre on the scale of city square out in the wilderness! Why pray tell did they want to do this, was it to provide for the inhabitants of south Kilkenny? Hell no, it was to tempt shoppers out of Waterford city and beyond: a crude attempt to create a rival city centre, right outside Waterford, which couldn't get enough business outside of the city of Waterford! Damn right they objected to it!

Having a shopping centre of that size would disrupted the natural pattern of trade in the city and would have increased the traffic on the bridge. This is why Waterford want to control the entire urban area, and the area that the city is likely to expand into, because otherwise rival county councils will try to make a quick buck by granting permission to huge shopping centres, completely messing with the city development plan.

merlante

daithi wrote:

Excellent Point Dilbert, KK people need not worry about playing in the BLue and White, the Gaa in KK have passed a motion to ignore any border changes, and continue playing as normal. Further complicating this issue, but making the sentiment of Kilkenny Folk very clear.
I doubt any one would have it any other way, Even though its virtually impossible to get on the Kilkenny team, even for those already on the panel, they still want in.
Sorry for dragging up the hurling, bit of a sore point with the deise, but TBH, i wanted ye to beat them Cork Langers.

Why does it always come down to hurling with you lot? This has got nothing to do with hurling: this is to do with the enlarging of a city boundary to allow for natural expansion.

Talk of hurling and jobs and Kilkenny people crossing the bridge has gone way too far! The Waterford economy relies on Kilkenny people and Wexford people to work in Waterford. Full stop. I personally wish that all counties would be abolished tomorrow morning so we could forego this ridiculous nonsense.

Waterford expands into Co. Waterford, there's no hassle. Waterford tries to expand into Co. Kilkenny and there's war. Flag waving and ****ing hurling have poisoned people on both sides! Hurling is a great game, but this is ridiculous. Waterford city is expanding. Its expansion has not been symmetrical because of a game played with a stick and a ball - ****ing ridiculous.

I hope that the Kilkenny people don't genuinely believe that we are trying to steal their hurlers. If so, then you might end up in Waterford (St. Otterans) soon enough anyway. Also, Waterford people should stop going on and on about jobs and the bridge: this talk helps nobody.

As for this "greed" argument - you have got to be joking! How could Waterford possibly make any money out of incorporating part of south Kilkenny? The Port of Waterford moved to the other side of the river a few years ago, because a port should select the best base from which to operate, and the site happened to be on the north side of the river. Surely you're not saying that we shouldn't be able to take our port back?

Bards

When will the South East Counties learn to co-operate and deliver fully to it's enormus potential. Take a leap out of the IRA and declare "the war over" (IE Inter County Rivalry must cease). We have the best location in terms of closeness to europe and britain, yet the west seems to outperform us in economic terms. Don't blame the govt. for our failure to set aside the county jersey and lets procede with one voice like the West has done.

Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary South, Carlow and Waterford need each other to create critical mass and a vibrant region with the Gateway at it's core. This so happens to be Waterford City.

Lets not fight with each other when the real enemy is Dublin and Cork!!

Maharet

Bards wrote:

Wexford, Kilkenny, Tipperary South, Carlow and Waterford need each other to create critical mass and a vibrant region with the Gateway at it's core. This so happens to be Waterford City.

Lets not fight with each other when the real enemy is Dublin and Cork!!

Indeed, especially Dublin!

It is a bit ridiculous that people can't see past the hurling and realise that this could be of great benefit to those of us in South Kilkenny. I would hope that if (when) the boundary changes that all people will be looked after equally and that Waterford City Council will be responsible in providing for all it's new citizens, not just those originally from Waterford.

I really get sick of this "get back over the bridge and stop taking all our jobs" argument that Waterford people come up with, do they not realise that Waterford is the main urban centre in the region and that if they want their City to be properly recognised as such by those who work there but live outside the City boundaries they would do well to start acting as such and not being their usual provincial selves (I don't mean all Waterford people here by the way but there is a fairly sizable minority of them for it to get irritating after a while).

As for Waterford trying to steal our hurlers, I still find it hard to believe that that was actually used as a serious argument by KKCo Councillors! As Kilkenny GAA have said they won't recognise it so what's the problem? Everyone can continue to play for their county anyway.

But having said that I can see why some people in Co. Kilkenny (soon to be Waterford City) would have a problem with this and there is more to it than hurling. If you've been reared in a county and you've always felt you belong there, have family from and living there and you are part of it, I can see how it would be upsetting for the City of another county to come and make you part of them.

Also, who will the areas affected be voting for, KK or Waterford? This would also cause problems I would imagine as Kilkenny isn't the biggest county to begin with. I can see this isn't going to be easy, but also (much as it pains me to say it) it would make sense for them to bring in the proposed areas to Waterford City, I just hope they do a better job of things than KK CoCo or there really will be war if people can see no discernable benefit from being made part of Waterford City.

(Maybe I should start sharpin me pike just in case )

merlante

I think this move could be a hit when it comes in. Kilkenny people will still consider themselves Kilkenny people, and whenever they want a road or something, all they have to do is cross the river and bang on the doors of city hall. I think Kilkenny Co.Co. were relying on the fact that South Kilkenny was too far away for them to come up and complain.

daithi

merlante wrote:

But what did this crowd want to do in south Kilkenny? They wanted to build a shopping centre on the scale of city square out in the wilderness! Why pray tell did they want to do this, was it to provide for the inhabitants of south Kilkenny? Hell no, it was to tempt shoppers out of Waterford city and beyond: a crude attempt to create a rival city centre, right outside Waterford, which couldn't get enough business outside of the city of Waterford! Damn right they objected to it!

Having a shopping centre of that size would disrupted the natural pattern of trade in the city and would have increased the traffic on the bridge. This is why Waterford want to control the entire urban area, and the area that the city is likely to expand into, because otherwise rival county councils will try to make a quick buck by granting permission to huge shopping centres, completely messing with the city development plan.

I think you will find if you were listening to the live line interview, the opposite was the plan, PArking is already an issue within waterford city centre, and it was noted that during peak shopping times (christmas especially) that the people of south kilkenny did not venture into waterford as there was no parking, What this would have been is an alternative to those people who are approachig from the Kilkenny and Wexford directions, to have a viable alternative. It does not make sense for people to have to go through the trouble of making it through the city, during the peak times, just to have some basic services. Ardkeen is an example of this, people from dunmore direction no longer need to enter the city centre, similarly with superquin on the tramore road.

If we look at dublin, there we can see a trend for building shopping centres away from urban centres. and if we look at waterford, and that side of the city, there is nothing. this in my view makes the shopping centre a valid proposal, the objection by waterford has hindered progress, and sinks the argument of kilkenny not providing services for south kilkenny.

Your argument also enforces the idea that it was greed that is the driving force behind waterford, as you state that it is an attempt to steal business, however waterford also want to use the argument that kilkenny are not developing the ares.
Seems like a conflict here does it not?, "kilkenny are not developing it" "Kilkenny are developing it to steal business from waterford city centre" why are there no postives in waterfords argument?.
Put simply, why would anyone from waterford object, they are intimidated by the presence of kilkenny and the potential for kilkenny county council to develop a better city centre, otherwise you would not have used the argument of tempting people accross the bridge, instead of just providing services for people approaching from that direction.

Excellent point Bard, however i would suggest that the rivalry is one sided in my experience, kilkenny tend to focus on "Hurling Rivalries" in a relatively friendly sense, waterford, are down the list a bit. The rivalry is the other direction mainly, with great hostility from the waterford side, this is just such an example.

Maharet, you have made a very clear point, however the hurling point was originally stated as a joke im afraid. Im presuimg it was said to lighten the mood of quite a high tempered debate, im sure you can understand the kind of atmosphere that would be present in such a meeting.

Maharet

daithi wrote:

I think you will find if you were listening to the live line interview, the opposite was the plan, PArking is already an issue within waterford city centre, and it was noted that during peak shopping times (christmas especially) that the people of south kilkenny did not venture into waterford as there was no parking, What this would have been is an alternative to those people who are approachig from the Kilkenny and Wexford directions, to have a viable alternative. It does not make sense for people to have to go through the trouble of making it through the city, during the peak times, just to have some basic services. Ardkeen is an example of this, people from dunmore direction no longer need to enter the city centre, similarly with superquin on the tramore road.

I think the problem was the size of it more than the actual idea of a shopping centre on that side, afaik. It would be great to see a shopping centre on the KK side of the bridge, save an awful lot of hassle.

daithi wrote:

Excellent point Bard, however i would suggest that the rivalry is one sided in my experience, kilkenny tend to focus on "Hurling Rivalries" in a relatively friendly sense, waterford, are down the list a bit. The rivalry is the other direction mainly, with great hostility from the waterford side, this is just such an example.

Indeed, it can be very hostile and hard to understand, since as you say there isnt that much of a rivalry from a Kilkenny point of view in hurling with Waterford, we don't play them all that often...

daithi wrote:

Maharet, you have made a very clear point, however the hurling point was originally stated as a joke im afraid. Im presuimg it was said to lighten the mood of quite a high tempered debate, im sure you can understand the kind of atmosphere that would be present in such a meeting.

Ah yes indeed and I'm glad to hear it was said as a joke, I had found it very hard to believe it was meant as anything else.

Maharet

merlante wrote:

I think this move could be a hit when it comes in. Kilkenny people will still consider themselves Kilkenny people, and whenever they want a road or something, all they have to do is cross the river and bang on the doors of city hall.

Well I don't think anyone covered by the boundary change would actually suddenly consider themselves from Waterford all of a sudden, just because they're now a part of it... Sounds good to me, I hope they do do something about that road.

daithi

Can anyone from waterford not look at this proposal as an unprecedentedly bold move by waterford, please try and see past the opportunistic side of this.
There are no negatives from waterfords point of view, and it appears to be another chance for waterford to have a go at the citizens of kilkenny, a centiment that is reflected in EDIT: (Nearly) all comments, however you will find there is very little ill sentiment from kilkenny citizens, apart from a slight bit arising from this incident.
It does not appear as if there is much effort for waterford people to put themselves in the shoes of kilkenny people on this. It appears that they just view at as an oppertunity not to cooperate.
I think you would do well to recognise both the hostility being displayed by waterford county council, and now its people, the complete unwillingness to cooperate in any way, the sheer greed in the amount of land proposed, and the opportunistic sentiment.
I seem to be left with the feeling that the citizend of waterford are like bad farmers, moving fences in the middle of the night, and then laughing at the idea of it. This is not a sentiment i wish to have, as i am good friends with quite a number of people from waterford.

the point that the roads are in desperate need of work is very valid, but this should be an attempt at fostering collaboration, not ill sentiment. I view it from a funding point of view myself, Its the government that pays, not KK county council.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

A lot of the reason why the roads are undeveloped is in part down to funding, Its the government/EU etc that pay for this, lobbing etc is a good consideration though.
The fact that waterford opposed a shoppin centre in ferrybank last year, which was approved by kilkenny county council is a sore point. the argument that an bord pleanala refused it is not valid as if was refused based on the objection from waterford.
Kilkenny Gaa have already passed a motion saying kk Gaa that they will not recognise any border move, however KK county council chairman Cllr Martin Shorthall did offer a few coaches if the deise are that stuck for hurling talent

Well well.

Showing your true colours at last!! I, like many others, am not a GAA supporter.......and never will be! I couldn't give a fiddlers who wins the All-Ireland. But I do have a problem with attitudes like yours.

Like many others, you earn a living in, and depend solely on, Waterford City to survive. Whether you're a factory worker or farmer that's the reality. Somehow I can't see you travelling to your couty town for employment.

I must say that if I were to detest Waterford (as you so obviously do) It would kill me to have to go there to work. Of course, the only reason you DO come to work here (carrying out the few mundane tasks in which we have no interest) is that you are living in an industrial wasteland. No infrastructure, no industry, and no sense of belonging. Ask anyone from Kilkenny town and they think that you lot are in Waterford already.

The highlight (if you can call it that) of your year centres around grown men chasing a small ball around with wooden sticks.......very stone age indeed!! Yep - really couldn't care whether or not the boundary is extended, but I can at least revel in the comfort of working in my home City (The Oldest City AND Port in the Country - not some kind of landlocked wannabee 'Medieval City. Give me a break!!!).

merlante

daithi wrote:

Ardkeen is an example of this, people from dunmore direction no longer need to enter the city centre, similarly with superquin on the tramore road.

daithi, have you read my post at all?

I said the following, which you conveniently choose to ignore!
"The Waterford point of view is that south Kilkenny should have the same service provision as the Dunmore road area, in Ardkeen, or the Lisduggan area, in the (about to be redeveloped) Waterford shopping centre. Nobody is saying that south Kilkenny shouldn't be just as provided for as these areas."

As I made perfectly clear, I am 100% in favour of Ardkeen style shopping facilities in south Kilkenny! These developments cater for the population of the area.

The shopping centre that was proposed was of such a scale that it not only catered for the local population, but was also intended to target Waterford city for customers. Placing a huge shopping centre outside of a city, to draw people out of the city, just to make a quick buck, is an obvious and blatant contravention of the city development plan. All developments of this scale, that cater for the city (because that shopping centre project was far bigger than what was required just for south Kilkenny) must comply with this plan.

There must be facilities in the suburbs, but all cities in Ireland are struggling to keep people living in the centre of cities and must prevent the development of doughnut cities, where the *primary* retail and population moves out of the centre, and there is nothing left. These doughnut towns, that you get in the US, I believe, are good for nobody and make service provision more expensive.

But of course developments of the scale of Ardkeen certainly should be built!

daithi wrote:

If we look at dublin, there we can see a trend for building shopping centres away from urban centres. and if we look at waterford, and that side of the city, there is nothing. this in my view makes the shopping centre a valid proposal, the objection by waterford has hindered progress, and sinks the argument of kilkenny not providing services for south kilkenny.

You can be quite sure that Waterford would/will provide a better service than Co. Kilkenny. You won't know yourselves with the quality of the roads we'll put in for a start!

daithi wrote:

Your argument also enforces the idea that it was greed that is the driving force behind waterford, as you state that it is an attempt to steal business, however waterford also want to use the argument that kilkenny are not developing the ares.
Seems like a conflict here does it not?, "kilkenny are not developing it" "Kilkenny are developing it to steal business from waterford city centre" why are there no postives in waterfords argument?.
Put simply, why would anyone from waterford object, they are intimidated by the presence of kilkenny and the potential for kilkenny county council to develop a better city centre, otherwise you would not have used the argument of tempting people accross the bridge, instead of just providing services for people approaching from that direction.

I will say this one more time.

a) Facilities that cater for south Kilkenny = GOOD

b) Facilities designed to tempt people into south Kilkenny and to distort service provision in Waterford city = BAD

Why is it bad?
Because Waterford City Council have to decide where 50,000 people live, work, how they commute, where they shop etc., they must plan so that the city doesn't descend into chaos. Providing city square v2.0 in south kilkenny is BAD planning. They were right to object.

Do you understand the difference between a) and b)? Do you really think that it is productive for south Kilkenny to attempt to build a rival city centre?

Marcopolo85

merlante wrote:

daithi, have you read my post at all?

Of course he didn't. They're not able to read and play hurling and the same time! :rolleyes:

Norinoco

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Well well.

Showing your true colours at last!! I, like many others, am not a GAA supporter.......and never will be! I couldn't give a fiddlers who wins the All-Ireland. But I do have a problem with attitudes like yours.

Well if you had read the posts you would have seen that the hurling point was a little light humour.

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Of course he didn't. They're not able to read and play hurling and the same time!

If you are not going to say something useful to this debate then dont say anything at all.

daithi

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Well well.

Showing your true colours at last!! I, like many others, am not a GAA supporter.......and never will be! I couldn't give a fiddlers who wins the All-Ireland. But I do have a problem with attitudes like yours.

Like many others, you earn a living in, and depend solely on, Waterford City to survive. Whether you're a factory worker or farmer that's the reality. Somehow I can't see you travelling to your couty town for employment.

I must say that if I were to detest Waterford (as you so obviously do) It would kill me to have to go there to work. Of course, the only reason you DO come to work here (carrying out the few mundane tasks in which we have no interest) is that you are living in an industrial wasteland. No infrastructure, no industry, and no sense of belonging. Ask anyone from Kilkenny town and they think that you lot are in Waterford already.

The highlight (if you can call it that) of your year centres around grown men chasing a small ball around with wooden sticks.......very stone age indeed!! Yep - really couldn't care whether or not the boundary is extended, but I can at least revel in the comfort of working in my home City (The Oldest City AND Port in the Country - not some kind of landlocked wannabee 'Medieval City. Give me a break!!!).

I work in Kilkenny im glad to say. However I still would not have any real problems working in waterford, or any other county or country for that matter.
If you were to read into the point im making, you have just proven it, well, done, more hotility, real progression, and well debated points too might i add with a hint of sarcasm. Hate to be the one to tell you that YOUR port is also in County Kilkenny, As per the hurling, kilkenny people are proud of the national sport, and are quite patriotic, if pride and patriotism is a crime, we are guilty.
This is a perfect example of the hostilty of the waterford people towards kilkenny, and im also glad to say, I dont really care, im slightly embarrassed for you and the rest of the people from waterford trying to make good arguments, but thats about it, ill accept your words for what they are.

Sorry merlante, i did slightly misread part of your post, my sincere apologies. But developing on the outskirts is what waterford plan to do, Kilkenny were just first on that side of the city, If waterford do not plan on doing this, the would not have bothered with the proposal

On the roads issue, I think you will find that the government pays for these, Kilkenny county council cant just redevelop a road without money. Why do you think we have been waiting 20 years for our own ring road extension around the city, this will help the situation for traffic going to waterford direction as they will not longer have to enter the city, as is the case from the carlow side.

Marcopolo85 on your second point you are still a shame to your county, and an example of the childish and hostile mentality.

Merlante your last point is indeed valid, but i still do not agree with it, Cooperation is what is required, hostile proposals is not.
Maybe a simple correction of the border area is what waterford should have went for, and my guess is that it would be accepted as a legitimate requirement by kilkenny county council. We are reasonable people here in kilkenny, but there will be no acceptance of hostile and unreasonable proposals from waterford, I feel that it is the sheer scale of the proposal that most have objections too, Take out a map....look at waterford city....look at the size of the proposed extension... its comically large.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

I work in Kilkenny im glad to say. However I still would not have any real problems working in waterford, or any other county or country for that matter.
If you were to read into the point im making, you have just proven it, well, done, more hotility, real progression, and well debated points too might i add with a hint of sarcasm. Hate to be the one to tell you that YOUR port is also in County Kilkenny, As per the hurling, kilkenny people are proud of the national sport, and are quite patriotic, if pride and patriotism is a crime, we are guilty.
This is a perfect example of the hostilty of the waterford people towards kilkenny, and im also glad to say, I dont really care, im slightly embarrassed for you and the rest of the people from waterford trying to make good arguments, but thats about it, ill accept your words for what they are.

Sorry merlante, i did slightly misread part of your post, my sincere apologies. But developing on the outskirts is what waterford plan to do, Kilkenny were just first on that side of the city, If waterford do not plan on doing this, the would not have bothered with the proposal

On the roads issue, I think you will find that the government pays for these, Kilkenny county council cant just redevelop a road without money. Why do you think we have been waiting 20 years for our own ring road extension around the city, this will help the situation for traffic going to waterford direction as they will not longer have to enter the city, as is the case from the carlow side.

Marcopolo85 on your second point you are still a shame to your county, and an example of the childish and hostile mentality.

Merlante your last point is indeed valid, but i still do not agree with it, Cooperation is what is required, hostile proposals is not.
Maybe a simple correction of the border area is what waterford should have went for, and my guess is that it would be accepted as a legitimate requirement by kilkenny county council. We are reasonable people here in kilkenny, but there will be no acceptance of hostile and unreasonable proposals from waterford, I feel that it is the sheer scale of the proposal that most have objections too, Take out a map....look at waterford city....look at the size of the proposed extension... its comically large.

Childish...........I think adequately describes your 'good' self.
A couple of points:

1. Did you ever think Kilkenny might be in OUR port??!! (sarcasm).

2. Yes - I make no secret of the fact that I feel hostile towards many of the 'Sow' Kilkenny 'neighbours'. It's richly deserved. And I would point out that I am not in a minority.

3. Again - it all comes down to hurling, 'our national sport' as you call it. About the only thing ye're good at over there! Who really cares whether Kilkenny GAA recognise the extension or not.

Had to laugh about your traffic problems in Kilkenny town. Obviously you don't pass through it, because if you did, you'd realise that you can get through the place in all of five minutes!! It's the roads going from Waterford through County Kilkenny we're on about (Paulstown, Gowran, et al are on the Waterford-Dublin Route. Kilkenny Town isn't).

As for being a disgrace to my county.....far from it!! Merely articulating the feelings of a vast amount of my fellow Waterfordians regarding Kilkenny people. And most of it is brought upon yourselves.

There are two things at the root of this:

1. Hurling.

2. An extreme begrudging of anything Waterfordian by you and your compatriots.

If the extension goes ahead - it goes ahead. It really doesn't matter if it doesn't. Waterford will still prosper, will still be the Regional capital, and will still be the only game in the area where those from South Kilkenny can avail of proper services, jobs, and infrastructure. Live with it - and stop being envious! You might actually get to like us (though I doubt it!).

daithi

Mods, what are we paying you for? :P
You obviously have nothing of value to say, and as such, are dragging a reasonable discussion down the road of pettyness, bitterness, spite and off the topic. I suppose i should not be suprised i got such a response.

merlante

daithi wrote:

This is a perfect example of the hostilty of the waterford people towards kilkenny.

You know, outside of the hurling fraternity, people in Waterford really don't care where people are from!

It is ridiculous to suggest that it's all on one side. Kilkenny people take the piss out of Waterford people because the hurling team has **** all al-irelands. Waterford people joke about closing the bridge and leaving Kilkenny people jobless, etc. Things have gotten worse as hurling has become more popular in Waterford. It takes two to tango, and there's obviously plenty of fuel being thrown on the fire on both sides, or else this rivalry would have disappeared a long time ago.

daithi wrote:

On the roads issue, I think you will find that the government pays for these, Kilkenny county council cant just redevelop a road without money. Why do you think we have been waiting 20 years for our own ring road extension around the city, this will help the situation for traffic going to waterford direction as they will not longer have to enter the city, as is the case from the carlow side.

Kilkenny Co. Co. have a road budget, but they never spend any money on the N9 or in south Kilkenny. Why is it that every other county can have good roads: Waterford to Cork or Waterford to Limerick, for example, but as soon as you enter Kilkenny, on the main Dublin road, you're onto a country track? A roundabout near Kilkenny city is a big thing, near Waterford, it's a spot on the road. I think most people in south Kilkenny would agree with me on this one!

daithi wrote:

Merlante your last point is indeed valid, but i still do not agree with it, Cooperation is what is required, hostile proposals is not.
Maybe a simple correction of the border area is what waterford should have went for, and my guess is that it would be accepted as a legitimate requirement by kilkenny county council. We are reasonable people here in kilkenny, but there will be no acceptance of hostile and unreasonable proposals from waterford, I feel that it is the sheer scale of the proposal that most have objections too, Take out a map....look at waterford city....look at the size of the proposed extension... its comically large.

In terms of the scale of the proposal, the simple fact is that Waterford city council, don't want to be coming back in 10-15 years looking for another extension. They got a significant extension on the south side of the city during the 80's and it's filling up fast. Also Waterford has basically been told by the government to develop more radially. And lets face it, why would people build houses miles to the south or east of the city when they can just live just across the river. It's not like the land is cursed or anything! For this reason, Waterford expects to build more houses north of the river over the coming years, than south of the river.

As for hostile takeovers, etc. No Kilkenny councillors will even discuss the possibility of any extension. You can't even raise it with them. The rhetoric is all , "hostile takeover" this, "not and inch" that, "over our dead bodies", etc. Waterford city council has tried on numerous occasions to discuss the matter with them, because, besides anything else, it's easier to get these things put through when people are agreeing.

I can understand why they want a generous extension though - could you imagine the same arguments every 10-20 years! Typically boundary extensions only happen a few times in a century, and from previous extensions, in the current century, you can tell that Waterford city council have put off this "evil" day for as long as possible!

AdMMM

I agree with Merlante wholeheartedly and by doing that it saves me writting a similar essay type reply

What everyone from Killkenny needs to look at is the situation from our point of view. Our city is rapidly expanding and has a very prosperous future a head of it, it is expanding faster than Killkenny and has a more prosperous future a head of it (although that goes without saying ). We need this border extention, you don't need to keep your land. I reckon half, maybe more, of Killkenny people don't know what areas are in South Killkenny, nor would they know any of them!

daithi

I understand the need, but if this goes through where will it stop? that is a major concern of the council. Does it mean that every 50-60 years waterford city council will extend the boundary into kilkenny?
I am not aware of anybody in kilkenny taking the piss out of waterford people for not winning many all irelands, but i generally try to avoid that type of bickering, so I will take it to be true.

Back to the issue:
If this proposal does go through, what benefit is it to kilkenny? They will be at a major financial, geographical and cultural loss. Kilkenny county council cant just stand by while its people are annexed. Kilkenny will be at a complete loss.
Its all positive for Waterford and all negative for Kilkenny, I still stand by the view that it can be handled through cooperation instead of hostiliity. A little understand on either side might resolve this issue.
Kilkenny wish to develop the area too, so why should waterford gain everything? (before we start the development argument agian, i think its been covered enough already)
The area obviously has massive potential with the government funding for the new bypass and better road infrastructure that is being developed.
Kilkenny cant just stand idely by while ecenomic benfits are just swiped from under its nose.
When everything else is cut away i suppose its down to ecenomics, both waterford and kilkenny want in. I suppose its just speculation now until it actually happens, but waterford can expect ardent resistance from the kilkenny people.

merlante

daithi wrote:

I understand the need, but if this goes through where will it stop? that is a major concern of the council. Does it mean that every 50-60 years waterford city council will extend the boundary into kilkenny?
I am not aware of anybody in kilkenny taking the piss out of waterford people for not winning many all irelands, but i generally try to avoid that type of bickering, so I will take it to be true.

The depends on the growth of the city. It might never grow any bigger. If it does, it'll be because lots of Kilkenny people and others move in. I don't really now what to say to this one, cities tend to grow, and as I said before, I wish all counties were abolished, because they're create such parochial attitudes. Waterford Co. Co. weren't overly discommoded by previous extensions, and from an economic point of view, that's the same thing.

I am amazed that you've never heard, or indeed employed, the "no all irelands since colour TV came in," taunt. I can assure you that many's the **** off back across the bridge comment was made in response to it. And to be honest, I think that the more Waterford people get enthusiastic about hurling, the more this little reminder is given, now and then; or maybe that's my own warped perception - but enough of that!

daithi wrote:

Back to the issue:
If this proposal does go through, what benefit is it to kilkenny? They will be at a major financial, geographical and cultural loss. Kilkenny county council cant just stand by while its people are annexed. Kilkenny will be at a complete loss.

I don't really see how it's a financial loss. Sure Kilkenny will have slightly less revenue from business, but it will also have less financial demands, regarding roads, sewege treatment, etc. And in fairness, it's only an anomaly that Kilkenny gets revenue from Waterford port, and maybe it illustrates the ridiculous situation that is there at the moment.

A lot of people would/will be annoyed that they are living in Waterford and not Kilkenny, fair enough, but this annoyance must be stacked against the greater need for this to happen. If only there was a way of south Kilkenny remaining in Kilkenny for allegiance purposes but being in Waterford for administrative purposes.

I don't think sentiment and hurling should impinge on a city's development though, to be honest, though I realise that people will be put out over it.

daithi wrote:

The area obviously has massive potential with the government funding for the new bypass and better road infrastructure that is being developed.
Kilkenny cant just stand idely by while ecenomic benfits are just swiped from under its nose.
When everything else is cut away i suppose its down to ecenomics, both waterford and kilkenny want in. I suppose its just speculation now until it actually happens, but waterford can expect ardent resistance from the kilkenny people.

I think the bottom line is that, whether the boundary gets approved or not, the area of south Kilkenny in question is increasingly taking on an urban rather than a rural character. The bypass and other road infrastucture underline this. The entire urban area should be administered by one urban authority, rather than one urban authority plus one rural authority, especially when both often want different things. As it is, Kilkenny Co. Co. pick and choose which parts of the Waterford development plan they go along with; the proposed shopping centre would have caused a lot of problems, for example. Also, Waterford City Council are in the peculiar situation of building council houses and other infrastructure in a different local authority.

I'm sure if there is any financial impact, a certain amount of compensation will be paid. I'd say blood money will be handed over alright.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

Mods, what are we paying you for? :P
You obviously have nothing of value to say, and as such, are dragging a reasonable discussion down the road of pettyness, bitterness, spite and off the topic. I suppose i should not be suprised i got such a response.

No Daithi. It's just that you don't like it when the sheer inadequacies of your argument are highlighted (and it's not very hard!!). If you want to have a discussion then do so. Everything is on topic and relating to the boundary discussion (might I point out that YOU brought up the game with the sticks!).

From your earlier post:

daithi wrote:

Kilkenny Gaa have already passed a motion saying kk Gaa that they will not recognise any border move, however KK county council chairman Cllr Martin Shorthall did offer a few coaches if the deise are that stuck for hurling talent

Just because you don't agree with the sentiments expressed (or are unable to produce a reasonable counter-argument) don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. We Waterfordians are fiercely proud of our City, it's position, and it's achievements. If you want to have a go then do - just don't expect us to sit back and take it!!

daithi

merlante, again I understand where you are coming from, but the financial benefits are beyond quite a bit more extensive then you are admitting.
The better infrastructre that will be in place will allow kilkenny county council to develop on the port better, If the IDA were to further develop industrial estates in the area, this would generate jobs for Kilkenny, wexford and waterford people, thus allowing us to "get back accross the bridge". whether kilkenny or waterford develop the area, the development will happen, but the question is who gets the tax revenue?. Waterford with its gateway designation have gained a lot of favor with the government when it comes to allocating resources, Kilkenny have been largely discriminated agains because of our proximity, It is about time kilkenny put their foot down with waterford and said enough is enough, we are taking a slice of the cake too.

Regarding the development of the roads in south kilkenny, lets not forge that kilkenny people have to travel south as well as waterford people travelling north, from my experience, a lot of waterford people tend to take the route up through wexford anyway. But that does not solve the problem of course, It is Kilkennys infrastructure, and therefore do you not think that kilkenny would not wish to develop it? Of course they would, so what else are waterford city council expecting other than to be told to shag off if they think they can take ecenomic benfits away. I ask you, would any county council in their right mind let such a prime resource go without a fight.
If we reversed the situation and kilkenny made a go at capturing the piece of land as far as the river, would that not make more sense,? sure you would loose the train station, but the train station is just a service and as such is would exist just the same whether its address was kilkenny or waterford. the reason kilkenny do not do it is becasue they understand that waterford have plans made for that piece of land, if kilkenny were to have a go at annexing it, im sure every person in waterford would fight tooth and nail about it , even though most of you seem to count accross the bridge as kilkenny anyway.
So Waterford "Get off our Land" LOL :P
Marcopolo85, my earlier statement still stands, i wont drag myself into explaining how low my oppinion is of you, but its low enough not to be expending effort in expressing it.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

Marcopolo85, my earlier statement still stands, i wont drag myself into explaining how low my oppinion is of you, but its low enough not to be expending effort in expressing it.

Do you really think I care? Touched several nerves did I? As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat (and you obviously can't!) don't come into the kitchen!!

daithi

yes you have prooved you do care quite a bit , why else would you keep replying even though your off topic and into grounds that should have you banned, now unless your going to partake in the topic, shag off, your going to get this thread locked.

yoursfaithfully

Tell me, is that obtrusive flashing beacon at Indiana Pacific a deliberate attempt to antagonise everyone in Waterford ?