Waterford City Boundary Extention into Co Kilkenny.

daithi

merlante wrote:

But what did this crowd want to do in south Kilkenny? They wanted to build a shopping centre on the scale of city square out in the wilderness! Why pray tell did they want to do this, was it to provide for the inhabitants of south Kilkenny? Hell no, it was to tempt shoppers out of Waterford city and beyond: a crude attempt to create a rival city centre, right outside Waterford, which couldn't get enough business outside of the city of Waterford! Damn right they objected to it!

Having a shopping centre of that size would disrupted the natural pattern of trade in the city and would have increased the traffic on the bridge. This is why Waterford want to control the entire urban area, and the area that the city is likely to expand into, because otherwise rival county councils will try to make a quick buck by granting permission to huge shopping centres, completely messing with the city development plan.

I think you will find if you were listening to the live line interview, the opposite was the plan, PArking is already an issue within waterford city centre, and it was noted that during peak shopping times (christmas especially) that the people of south kilkenny did not venture into waterford as there was no parking, What this would have been is an alternative to those people who are approachig from the Kilkenny and Wexford directions, to have a viable alternative. It does not make sense for people to have to go through the trouble of making it through the city, during the peak times, just to have some basic services. Ardkeen is an example of this, people from dunmore direction no longer need to enter the city centre, similarly with superquin on the tramore road.

If we look at dublin, there we can see a trend for building shopping centres away from urban centres. and if we look at waterford, and that side of the city, there is nothing. this in my view makes the shopping centre a valid proposal, the objection by waterford has hindered progress, and sinks the argument of kilkenny not providing services for south kilkenny.

Your argument also enforces the idea that it was greed that is the driving force behind waterford, as you state that it is an attempt to steal business, however waterford also want to use the argument that kilkenny are not developing the ares.
Seems like a conflict here does it not?, "kilkenny are not developing it" "Kilkenny are developing it to steal business from waterford city centre" why are there no postives in waterfords argument?.
Put simply, why would anyone from waterford object, they are intimidated by the presence of kilkenny and the potential for kilkenny county council to develop a better city centre, otherwise you would not have used the argument of tempting people accross the bridge, instead of just providing services for people approaching from that direction.

Excellent point Bard, however i would suggest that the rivalry is one sided in my experience, kilkenny tend to focus on "Hurling Rivalries" in a relatively friendly sense, waterford, are down the list a bit. The rivalry is the other direction mainly, with great hostility from the waterford side, this is just such an example.

Maharet, you have made a very clear point, however the hurling point was originally stated as a joke im afraid. Im presuimg it was said to lighten the mood of quite a high tempered debate, im sure you can understand the kind of atmosphere that would be present in such a meeting.

Maharet

daithi wrote:

I think you will find if you were listening to the live line interview, the opposite was the plan, PArking is already an issue within waterford city centre, and it was noted that during peak shopping times (christmas especially) that the people of south kilkenny did not venture into waterford as there was no parking, What this would have been is an alternative to those people who are approachig from the Kilkenny and Wexford directions, to have a viable alternative. It does not make sense for people to have to go through the trouble of making it through the city, during the peak times, just to have some basic services. Ardkeen is an example of this, people from dunmore direction no longer need to enter the city centre, similarly with superquin on the tramore road.

I think the problem was the size of it more than the actual idea of a shopping centre on that side, afaik. It would be great to see a shopping centre on the KK side of the bridge, save an awful lot of hassle.

daithi wrote:

Excellent point Bard, however i would suggest that the rivalry is one sided in my experience, kilkenny tend to focus on "Hurling Rivalries" in a relatively friendly sense, waterford, are down the list a bit. The rivalry is the other direction mainly, with great hostility from the waterford side, this is just such an example.

Indeed, it can be very hostile and hard to understand, since as you say there isnt that much of a rivalry from a Kilkenny point of view in hurling with Waterford, we don't play them all that often...

daithi wrote:

Maharet, you have made a very clear point, however the hurling point was originally stated as a joke im afraid. Im presuimg it was said to lighten the mood of quite a high tempered debate, im sure you can understand the kind of atmosphere that would be present in such a meeting.

Ah yes indeed and I'm glad to hear it was said as a joke, I had found it very hard to believe it was meant as anything else.

Maharet

merlante wrote:

I think this move could be a hit when it comes in. Kilkenny people will still consider themselves Kilkenny people, and whenever they want a road or something, all they have to do is cross the river and bang on the doors of city hall.

Well I don't think anyone covered by the boundary change would actually suddenly consider themselves from Waterford all of a sudden, just because they're now a part of it... Sounds good to me, I hope they do do something about that road.

daithi

Can anyone from waterford not look at this proposal as an unprecedentedly bold move by waterford, please try and see past the opportunistic side of this.
There are no negatives from waterfords point of view, and it appears to be another chance for waterford to have a go at the citizens of kilkenny, a centiment that is reflected in EDIT: (Nearly) all comments, however you will find there is very little ill sentiment from kilkenny citizens, apart from a slight bit arising from this incident.
It does not appear as if there is much effort for waterford people to put themselves in the shoes of kilkenny people on this. It appears that they just view at as an oppertunity not to cooperate.
I think you would do well to recognise both the hostility being displayed by waterford county council, and now its people, the complete unwillingness to cooperate in any way, the sheer greed in the amount of land proposed, and the opportunistic sentiment.
I seem to be left with the feeling that the citizend of waterford are like bad farmers, moving fences in the middle of the night, and then laughing at the idea of it. This is not a sentiment i wish to have, as i am good friends with quite a number of people from waterford.

the point that the roads are in desperate need of work is very valid, but this should be an attempt at fostering collaboration, not ill sentiment. I view it from a funding point of view myself, Its the government that pays, not KK county council.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

A lot of the reason why the roads are undeveloped is in part down to funding, Its the government/EU etc that pay for this, lobbing etc is a good consideration though.
The fact that waterford opposed a shoppin centre in ferrybank last year, which was approved by kilkenny county council is a sore point. the argument that an bord pleanala refused it is not valid as if was refused based on the objection from waterford.
Kilkenny Gaa have already passed a motion saying kk Gaa that they will not recognise any border move, however KK county council chairman Cllr Martin Shorthall did offer a few coaches if the deise are that stuck for hurling talent

Well well.

Showing your true colours at last!! I, like many others, am not a GAA supporter.......and never will be! I couldn't give a fiddlers who wins the All-Ireland. But I do have a problem with attitudes like yours.

Like many others, you earn a living in, and depend solely on, Waterford City to survive. Whether you're a factory worker or farmer that's the reality. Somehow I can't see you travelling to your couty town for employment.

I must say that if I were to detest Waterford (as you so obviously do) It would kill me to have to go there to work. Of course, the only reason you DO come to work here (carrying out the few mundane tasks in which we have no interest) is that you are living in an industrial wasteland. No infrastructure, no industry, and no sense of belonging. Ask anyone from Kilkenny town and they think that you lot are in Waterford already.

The highlight (if you can call it that) of your year centres around grown men chasing a small ball around with wooden sticks.......very stone age indeed!! Yep - really couldn't care whether or not the boundary is extended, but I can at least revel in the comfort of working in my home City (The Oldest City AND Port in the Country - not some kind of landlocked wannabee 'Medieval City. Give me a break!!!).

merlante

daithi wrote:

Ardkeen is an example of this, people from dunmore direction no longer need to enter the city centre, similarly with superquin on the tramore road.

daithi, have you read my post at all?

I said the following, which you conveniently choose to ignore!
"The Waterford point of view is that south Kilkenny should have the same service provision as the Dunmore road area, in Ardkeen, or the Lisduggan area, in the (about to be redeveloped) Waterford shopping centre. Nobody is saying that south Kilkenny shouldn't be just as provided for as these areas."

As I made perfectly clear, I am 100% in favour of Ardkeen style shopping facilities in south Kilkenny! These developments cater for the population of the area.

The shopping centre that was proposed was of such a scale that it not only catered for the local population, but was also intended to target Waterford city for customers. Placing a huge shopping centre outside of a city, to draw people out of the city, just to make a quick buck, is an obvious and blatant contravention of the city development plan. All developments of this scale, that cater for the city (because that shopping centre project was far bigger than what was required just for south Kilkenny) must comply with this plan.

There must be facilities in the suburbs, but all cities in Ireland are struggling to keep people living in the centre of cities and must prevent the development of doughnut cities, where the *primary* retail and population moves out of the centre, and there is nothing left. These doughnut towns, that you get in the US, I believe, are good for nobody and make service provision more expensive.

But of course developments of the scale of Ardkeen certainly should be built!

daithi wrote:

If we look at dublin, there we can see a trend for building shopping centres away from urban centres. and if we look at waterford, and that side of the city, there is nothing. this in my view makes the shopping centre a valid proposal, the objection by waterford has hindered progress, and sinks the argument of kilkenny not providing services for south kilkenny.

You can be quite sure that Waterford would/will provide a better service than Co. Kilkenny. You won't know yourselves with the quality of the roads we'll put in for a start!

daithi wrote:

Your argument also enforces the idea that it was greed that is the driving force behind waterford, as you state that it is an attempt to steal business, however waterford also want to use the argument that kilkenny are not developing the ares.
Seems like a conflict here does it not?, "kilkenny are not developing it" "Kilkenny are developing it to steal business from waterford city centre" why are there no postives in waterfords argument?.
Put simply, why would anyone from waterford object, they are intimidated by the presence of kilkenny and the potential for kilkenny county council to develop a better city centre, otherwise you would not have used the argument of tempting people accross the bridge, instead of just providing services for people approaching from that direction.

I will say this one more time.

a) Facilities that cater for south Kilkenny = GOOD

b) Facilities designed to tempt people into south Kilkenny and to distort service provision in Waterford city = BAD

Why is it bad?
Because Waterford City Council have to decide where 50,000 people live, work, how they commute, where they shop etc., they must plan so that the city doesn't descend into chaos. Providing city square v2.0 in south kilkenny is BAD planning. They were right to object.

Do you understand the difference between a) and b)? Do you really think that it is productive for south Kilkenny to attempt to build a rival city centre?

Marcopolo85

merlante wrote:

daithi, have you read my post at all?

Of course he didn't. They're not able to read and play hurling and the same time! :rolleyes:

Norinoco

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Well well.

Showing your true colours at last!! I, like many others, am not a GAA supporter.......and never will be! I couldn't give a fiddlers who wins the All-Ireland. But I do have a problem with attitudes like yours.

Well if you had read the posts you would have seen that the hurling point was a little light humour.

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Of course he didn't. They're not able to read and play hurling and the same time!

If you are not going to say something useful to this debate then dont say anything at all.

daithi

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Well well.

Showing your true colours at last!! I, like many others, am not a GAA supporter.......and never will be! I couldn't give a fiddlers who wins the All-Ireland. But I do have a problem with attitudes like yours.

Like many others, you earn a living in, and depend solely on, Waterford City to survive. Whether you're a factory worker or farmer that's the reality. Somehow I can't see you travelling to your couty town for employment.

I must say that if I were to detest Waterford (as you so obviously do) It would kill me to have to go there to work. Of course, the only reason you DO come to work here (carrying out the few mundane tasks in which we have no interest) is that you are living in an industrial wasteland. No infrastructure, no industry, and no sense of belonging. Ask anyone from Kilkenny town and they think that you lot are in Waterford already.

The highlight (if you can call it that) of your year centres around grown men chasing a small ball around with wooden sticks.......very stone age indeed!! Yep - really couldn't care whether or not the boundary is extended, but I can at least revel in the comfort of working in my home City (The Oldest City AND Port in the Country - not some kind of landlocked wannabee 'Medieval City. Give me a break!!!).

I work in Kilkenny im glad to say. However I still would not have any real problems working in waterford, or any other county or country for that matter.
If you were to read into the point im making, you have just proven it, well, done, more hotility, real progression, and well debated points too might i add with a hint of sarcasm. Hate to be the one to tell you that YOUR port is also in County Kilkenny, As per the hurling, kilkenny people are proud of the national sport, and are quite patriotic, if pride and patriotism is a crime, we are guilty.
This is a perfect example of the hostilty of the waterford people towards kilkenny, and im also glad to say, I dont really care, im slightly embarrassed for you and the rest of the people from waterford trying to make good arguments, but thats about it, ill accept your words for what they are.

Sorry merlante, i did slightly misread part of your post, my sincere apologies. But developing on the outskirts is what waterford plan to do, Kilkenny were just first on that side of the city, If waterford do not plan on doing this, the would not have bothered with the proposal

On the roads issue, I think you will find that the government pays for these, Kilkenny county council cant just redevelop a road without money. Why do you think we have been waiting 20 years for our own ring road extension around the city, this will help the situation for traffic going to waterford direction as they will not longer have to enter the city, as is the case from the carlow side.

Marcopolo85 on your second point you are still a shame to your county, and an example of the childish and hostile mentality.

Merlante your last point is indeed valid, but i still do not agree with it, Cooperation is what is required, hostile proposals is not.
Maybe a simple correction of the border area is what waterford should have went for, and my guess is that it would be accepted as a legitimate requirement by kilkenny county council. We are reasonable people here in kilkenny, but there will be no acceptance of hostile and unreasonable proposals from waterford, I feel that it is the sheer scale of the proposal that most have objections too, Take out a map....look at waterford city....look at the size of the proposed extension... its comically large.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

I work in Kilkenny im glad to say. However I still would not have any real problems working in waterford, or any other county or country for that matter.
If you were to read into the point im making, you have just proven it, well, done, more hotility, real progression, and well debated points too might i add with a hint of sarcasm. Hate to be the one to tell you that YOUR port is also in County Kilkenny, As per the hurling, kilkenny people are proud of the national sport, and are quite patriotic, if pride and patriotism is a crime, we are guilty.
This is a perfect example of the hostilty of the waterford people towards kilkenny, and im also glad to say, I dont really care, im slightly embarrassed for you and the rest of the people from waterford trying to make good arguments, but thats about it, ill accept your words for what they are.

Sorry merlante, i did slightly misread part of your post, my sincere apologies. But developing on the outskirts is what waterford plan to do, Kilkenny were just first on that side of the city, If waterford do not plan on doing this, the would not have bothered with the proposal

On the roads issue, I think you will find that the government pays for these, Kilkenny county council cant just redevelop a road without money. Why do you think we have been waiting 20 years for our own ring road extension around the city, this will help the situation for traffic going to waterford direction as they will not longer have to enter the city, as is the case from the carlow side.

Marcopolo85 on your second point you are still a shame to your county, and an example of the childish and hostile mentality.

Merlante your last point is indeed valid, but i still do not agree with it, Cooperation is what is required, hostile proposals is not.
Maybe a simple correction of the border area is what waterford should have went for, and my guess is that it would be accepted as a legitimate requirement by kilkenny county council. We are reasonable people here in kilkenny, but there will be no acceptance of hostile and unreasonable proposals from waterford, I feel that it is the sheer scale of the proposal that most have objections too, Take out a map....look at waterford city....look at the size of the proposed extension... its comically large.

Childish...........I think adequately describes your 'good' self.
A couple of points:

1. Did you ever think Kilkenny might be in OUR port??!! (sarcasm).

2. Yes - I make no secret of the fact that I feel hostile towards many of the 'Sow' Kilkenny 'neighbours'. It's richly deserved. And I would point out that I am not in a minority.

3. Again - it all comes down to hurling, 'our national sport' as you call it. About the only thing ye're good at over there! Who really cares whether Kilkenny GAA recognise the extension or not.

Had to laugh about your traffic problems in Kilkenny town. Obviously you don't pass through it, because if you did, you'd realise that you can get through the place in all of five minutes!! It's the roads going from Waterford through County Kilkenny we're on about (Paulstown, Gowran, et al are on the Waterford-Dublin Route. Kilkenny Town isn't).

As for being a disgrace to my county.....far from it!! Merely articulating the feelings of a vast amount of my fellow Waterfordians regarding Kilkenny people. And most of it is brought upon yourselves.

There are two things at the root of this:

1. Hurling.

2. An extreme begrudging of anything Waterfordian by you and your compatriots.

If the extension goes ahead - it goes ahead. It really doesn't matter if it doesn't. Waterford will still prosper, will still be the Regional capital, and will still be the only game in the area where those from South Kilkenny can avail of proper services, jobs, and infrastructure. Live with it - and stop being envious! You might actually get to like us (though I doubt it!).

daithi

Mods, what are we paying you for? :P
You obviously have nothing of value to say, and as such, are dragging a reasonable discussion down the road of pettyness, bitterness, spite and off the topic. I suppose i should not be suprised i got such a response.

merlante

daithi wrote:

This is a perfect example of the hostilty of the waterford people towards kilkenny.

You know, outside of the hurling fraternity, people in Waterford really don't care where people are from!

It is ridiculous to suggest that it's all on one side. Kilkenny people take the piss out of Waterford people because the hurling team has **** all al-irelands. Waterford people joke about closing the bridge and leaving Kilkenny people jobless, etc. Things have gotten worse as hurling has become more popular in Waterford. It takes two to tango, and there's obviously plenty of fuel being thrown on the fire on both sides, or else this rivalry would have disappeared a long time ago.

daithi wrote:

On the roads issue, I think you will find that the government pays for these, Kilkenny county council cant just redevelop a road without money. Why do you think we have been waiting 20 years for our own ring road extension around the city, this will help the situation for traffic going to waterford direction as they will not longer have to enter the city, as is the case from the carlow side.

Kilkenny Co. Co. have a road budget, but they never spend any money on the N9 or in south Kilkenny. Why is it that every other county can have good roads: Waterford to Cork or Waterford to Limerick, for example, but as soon as you enter Kilkenny, on the main Dublin road, you're onto a country track? A roundabout near Kilkenny city is a big thing, near Waterford, it's a spot on the road. I think most people in south Kilkenny would agree with me on this one!

daithi wrote:

Merlante your last point is indeed valid, but i still do not agree with it, Cooperation is what is required, hostile proposals is not.
Maybe a simple correction of the border area is what waterford should have went for, and my guess is that it would be accepted as a legitimate requirement by kilkenny county council. We are reasonable people here in kilkenny, but there will be no acceptance of hostile and unreasonable proposals from waterford, I feel that it is the sheer scale of the proposal that most have objections too, Take out a map....look at waterford city....look at the size of the proposed extension... its comically large.

In terms of the scale of the proposal, the simple fact is that Waterford city council, don't want to be coming back in 10-15 years looking for another extension. They got a significant extension on the south side of the city during the 80's and it's filling up fast. Also Waterford has basically been told by the government to develop more radially. And lets face it, why would people build houses miles to the south or east of the city when they can just live just across the river. It's not like the land is cursed or anything! For this reason, Waterford expects to build more houses north of the river over the coming years, than south of the river.

As for hostile takeovers, etc. No Kilkenny councillors will even discuss the possibility of any extension. You can't even raise it with them. The rhetoric is all , "hostile takeover" this, "not and inch" that, "over our dead bodies", etc. Waterford city council has tried on numerous occasions to discuss the matter with them, because, besides anything else, it's easier to get these things put through when people are agreeing.

I can understand why they want a generous extension though - could you imagine the same arguments every 10-20 years! Typically boundary extensions only happen a few times in a century, and from previous extensions, in the current century, you can tell that Waterford city council have put off this "evil" day for as long as possible!

AdMMM

I agree with Merlante wholeheartedly and by doing that it saves me writting a similar essay type reply

What everyone from Killkenny needs to look at is the situation from our point of view. Our city is rapidly expanding and has a very prosperous future a head of it, it is expanding faster than Killkenny and has a more prosperous future a head of it (although that goes without saying ). We need this border extention, you don't need to keep your land. I reckon half, maybe more, of Killkenny people don't know what areas are in South Killkenny, nor would they know any of them!

daithi

I understand the need, but if this goes through where will it stop? that is a major concern of the council. Does it mean that every 50-60 years waterford city council will extend the boundary into kilkenny?
I am not aware of anybody in kilkenny taking the piss out of waterford people for not winning many all irelands, but i generally try to avoid that type of bickering, so I will take it to be true.

Back to the issue:
If this proposal does go through, what benefit is it to kilkenny? They will be at a major financial, geographical and cultural loss. Kilkenny county council cant just stand by while its people are annexed. Kilkenny will be at a complete loss.
Its all positive for Waterford and all negative for Kilkenny, I still stand by the view that it can be handled through cooperation instead of hostiliity. A little understand on either side might resolve this issue.
Kilkenny wish to develop the area too, so why should waterford gain everything? (before we start the development argument agian, i think its been covered enough already)
The area obviously has massive potential with the government funding for the new bypass and better road infrastructure that is being developed.
Kilkenny cant just stand idely by while ecenomic benfits are just swiped from under its nose.
When everything else is cut away i suppose its down to ecenomics, both waterford and kilkenny want in. I suppose its just speculation now until it actually happens, but waterford can expect ardent resistance from the kilkenny people.

merlante

daithi wrote:

I understand the need, but if this goes through where will it stop? that is a major concern of the council. Does it mean that every 50-60 years waterford city council will extend the boundary into kilkenny?
I am not aware of anybody in kilkenny taking the piss out of waterford people for not winning many all irelands, but i generally try to avoid that type of bickering, so I will take it to be true.

The depends on the growth of the city. It might never grow any bigger. If it does, it'll be because lots of Kilkenny people and others move in. I don't really now what to say to this one, cities tend to grow, and as I said before, I wish all counties were abolished, because they're create such parochial attitudes. Waterford Co. Co. weren't overly discommoded by previous extensions, and from an economic point of view, that's the same thing.

I am amazed that you've never heard, or indeed employed, the "no all irelands since colour TV came in," taunt. I can assure you that many's the **** off back across the bridge comment was made in response to it. And to be honest, I think that the more Waterford people get enthusiastic about hurling, the more this little reminder is given, now and then; or maybe that's my own warped perception - but enough of that!

daithi wrote:

Back to the issue:
If this proposal does go through, what benefit is it to kilkenny? They will be at a major financial, geographical and cultural loss. Kilkenny county council cant just stand by while its people are annexed. Kilkenny will be at a complete loss.

I don't really see how it's a financial loss. Sure Kilkenny will have slightly less revenue from business, but it will also have less financial demands, regarding roads, sewege treatment, etc. And in fairness, it's only an anomaly that Kilkenny gets revenue from Waterford port, and maybe it illustrates the ridiculous situation that is there at the moment.

A lot of people would/will be annoyed that they are living in Waterford and not Kilkenny, fair enough, but this annoyance must be stacked against the greater need for this to happen. If only there was a way of south Kilkenny remaining in Kilkenny for allegiance purposes but being in Waterford for administrative purposes.

I don't think sentiment and hurling should impinge on a city's development though, to be honest, though I realise that people will be put out over it.

daithi wrote:

The area obviously has massive potential with the government funding for the new bypass and better road infrastructure that is being developed.
Kilkenny cant just stand idely by while ecenomic benfits are just swiped from under its nose.
When everything else is cut away i suppose its down to ecenomics, both waterford and kilkenny want in. I suppose its just speculation now until it actually happens, but waterford can expect ardent resistance from the kilkenny people.

I think the bottom line is that, whether the boundary gets approved or not, the area of south Kilkenny in question is increasingly taking on an urban rather than a rural character. The bypass and other road infrastucture underline this. The entire urban area should be administered by one urban authority, rather than one urban authority plus one rural authority, especially when both often want different things. As it is, Kilkenny Co. Co. pick and choose which parts of the Waterford development plan they go along with; the proposed shopping centre would have caused a lot of problems, for example. Also, Waterford City Council are in the peculiar situation of building council houses and other infrastructure in a different local authority.

I'm sure if there is any financial impact, a certain amount of compensation will be paid. I'd say blood money will be handed over alright.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

Mods, what are we paying you for? :P
You obviously have nothing of value to say, and as such, are dragging a reasonable discussion down the road of pettyness, bitterness, spite and off the topic. I suppose i should not be suprised i got such a response.

No Daithi. It's just that you don't like it when the sheer inadequacies of your argument are highlighted (and it's not very hard!!). If you want to have a discussion then do so. Everything is on topic and relating to the boundary discussion (might I point out that YOU brought up the game with the sticks!).

From your earlier post:

daithi wrote:

Kilkenny Gaa have already passed a motion saying kk Gaa that they will not recognise any border move, however KK county council chairman Cllr Martin Shorthall did offer a few coaches if the deise are that stuck for hurling talent

Just because you don't agree with the sentiments expressed (or are unable to produce a reasonable counter-argument) don't expect to be treated with kid gloves. We Waterfordians are fiercely proud of our City, it's position, and it's achievements. If you want to have a go then do - just don't expect us to sit back and take it!!

daithi

merlante, again I understand where you are coming from, but the financial benefits are beyond quite a bit more extensive then you are admitting.
The better infrastructre that will be in place will allow kilkenny county council to develop on the port better, If the IDA were to further develop industrial estates in the area, this would generate jobs for Kilkenny, wexford and waterford people, thus allowing us to "get back accross the bridge". whether kilkenny or waterford develop the area, the development will happen, but the question is who gets the tax revenue?. Waterford with its gateway designation have gained a lot of favor with the government when it comes to allocating resources, Kilkenny have been largely discriminated agains because of our proximity, It is about time kilkenny put their foot down with waterford and said enough is enough, we are taking a slice of the cake too.

Regarding the development of the roads in south kilkenny, lets not forge that kilkenny people have to travel south as well as waterford people travelling north, from my experience, a lot of waterford people tend to take the route up through wexford anyway. But that does not solve the problem of course, It is Kilkennys infrastructure, and therefore do you not think that kilkenny would not wish to develop it? Of course they would, so what else are waterford city council expecting other than to be told to shag off if they think they can take ecenomic benfits away. I ask you, would any county council in their right mind let such a prime resource go without a fight.
If we reversed the situation and kilkenny made a go at capturing the piece of land as far as the river, would that not make more sense,? sure you would loose the train station, but the train station is just a service and as such is would exist just the same whether its address was kilkenny or waterford. the reason kilkenny do not do it is becasue they understand that waterford have plans made for that piece of land, if kilkenny were to have a go at annexing it, im sure every person in waterford would fight tooth and nail about it , even though most of you seem to count accross the bridge as kilkenny anyway.
So Waterford "Get off our Land" LOL :P
Marcopolo85, my earlier statement still stands, i wont drag myself into explaining how low my oppinion is of you, but its low enough not to be expending effort in expressing it.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

Marcopolo85, my earlier statement still stands, i wont drag myself into explaining how low my oppinion is of you, but its low enough not to be expending effort in expressing it.

Do you really think I care? Touched several nerves did I? As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat (and you obviously can't!) don't come into the kitchen!!

daithi

yes you have prooved you do care quite a bit , why else would you keep replying even though your off topic and into grounds that should have you banned, now unless your going to partake in the topic, shag off, your going to get this thread locked.

yoursfaithfully

Tell me, is that obtrusive flashing beacon at Indiana Pacific a deliberate attempt to antagonise everyone in Waterford ?

Cabaal

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Do you really think I care? Touched several nerves did I? As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat (and you obviously can't!) don't come into the kitchen!!

Actually I believe its
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

mike65

Marcopolo85 cool it a bit eh?. I'm happy enough to ban locals!

Mike.

Marcopolo85

daithi wrote:

yes you have prooved you do care quite a bit , why else would you keep replying even though your off topic and into grounds that should have you banned, now unless your going to partake in the topic, shag off, your going to get this thread locked.

Back at ya!!!!

Marcopolo85

Cabaal wrote:

Actually I believe its
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

Yes Cabaal. You're 100% right. Just the heat (no pun intended) of the situation!! I do carry a very large torch for Waterford City.

Marcopolo85

mike65 wrote:

Marcopolo85 cool it a bit eh?. I'm happy enough to ban locals!

Mike.

No prob Mike. I think I've said all I need to say..........

brettmirl

Does this mean that Dublin will annex North Wicklow, Louth, Meath and Kildare now too?

Marcopolo85

mick_irl wrote:

Does this mean that Dublin will annex North Wicklow, Louth, Meath and Kildare now too?

Probably....

Maharet

I think the reason Kilkenny Co Co are so pissed off about this is because as daithi has pointed out there is going to be a great loss of revenue for them. I had heard that the original idea was for Waterford and Kilkenny to cooperate in developing the whole area and not just Waterford taking over the whole area on it's own. I think that would be a fairer approach than Waterford just taking everthing for themselves.

merlante

daithi wrote:

merlante, again I understand where you are coming from, but the financial benefits are beyond quite a bit more extensive then you are admitting.

Aside from the port, what else is there? Or at least, what economic activity is generating income, within the proposed extended region, that is not being generated as a by-product of the city?

As I've already said, we have received many boundary extensions from Waterford Co. Co, and there have been no major problems. Economically it's the same thing.

daithi wrote:

The better infrastructre that will be in place will allow kilkenny county council to develop on the port better, If the IDA were to further develop industrial estates in

This is bizarre! Waterford City Council has assisted in the development of the port since it was incorporated over 700 years ago, what has Kilkenny got to do with Waterford port? Are you suggesting that just because Kilkenny is currently the local authority for that land that Kilkenny now *deserves* revenue from Waterford port!

The port issue just illustrates how much Waterford needs an extension. When you have a situation where you move the port down river a bit and all of a sudden it's in a different county, and then that county tries to claim it, that's when you know you need an extension. The very idea that a landlocked county like Kilkenny would have the temerity to claim that it had a port. It is called the "Port of Waterford Company"!

daithi wrote:

the area, this would generate jobs for Kilkenny, wexford and waterford people, thus allowing us to "get back accross the bridge". whether kilkenny or waterford develop the area, the development will happen, but the question is who gets the tax revenue?. Waterford with its gateway designation have gained a lot of favor with

This is unbelievable! As you well know, the only reason that there will be any development in south Kilkenny is because the city is thriving and growing. Any revenue accruing from business in Waterford should go to the city. It is not right for this revenue to go elsewhere. We both know that the development that will inevitably happen in south Kilkenny will be generated by Waterford city, and where else but Waterford city, should this revenue go? The port should be building parks in Waterford city, not roundabouts in Kilkenny city. This is not a point of view, this is a fact!

Waterford Co. Co. right gave Waterford many boundary extension, as I have said. The economic case is identical for Waterford and Kilkenny councils. The only difference is hurling!

daithi wrote:

the government when it comes to allocating resources, Kilkenny have been largely discriminated agains because of our proximity, It is about time kilkenny put their foot down with waterford and said enough is enough, we are taking a slice of the cake too.

Waterford is not favoured by the government. It is the least funded of the major cities in Ireland because infighting in the south east has made it weak. Arguing, as Kilkenny often does, that Waterford gets everything and Kilkenny gets nothing, is what has this region the way it is. One of your TDs even have brass neck to try and get the Regional Hospital moved to Kilkenny about a year ago. The campaign for a university in the south east has been hampered in the past by Kilkenny wanting to have it in their town!

Here are some facts of life regarding the above:
a) Waterford is a major city.
b) Kilkenny is a town with a considerably lower population.
c) Waterford was rightly named a gateway, and Kilkenny rightly named a hub.
d) Waterford does not compete with Kilkenny, it competes with other regional capitals, such as Galway and Limerick.
e) The high ideas of the burghers of Kilkenny does not make Kilkenny an important place - it simply is not large enough to be a regional capital, but it has, in the past, had enough clout to damage Waterford.

daithi wrote:

If we reversed the situation and kilkenny made a go at capturing the piece of land as far as the river, would that not make more sense,? sure you would loose the train station, but the train station is just a service and as such is would exist just the same whether its address was kilkenny or waterford. the reason kilkenny do not do it is becasue they understand that waterford have plans made for that piece of land, if kilkenny were to have a go at annexing it, im sure every person in waterford would fight tooth and nail about it , even though most of you seem to count accross the bridge as kilkenny anyway.
So Waterford "Get off our Land" LOL :P

Only urban areas can expand their boundaries, and there is a good reason for it. If Waterford city council was abolished and Waterford Co. Co. and Kilkenny Co. Co. took over the city, there'd holy war and the city would be torn apart by infighting. It is right that there is a city council that looks after the city - the whole city. It should expand equally in all directions, and it should not be compromised by hurling, flag waving or by petty councillors trying to cream a bit of profit from the outskirts of it, or trying to steal its port for that matter!

mire

great discussion here people. but there's some sad stuff being spouted too - especially from the anti-boundary extension camp.

the boundary extension will have no implications for where people live - their houses will not be moved - it is merely an administrative adjustment to reflect the reality of an expanding urban area - if, as one post claims, people will be 'annoyed' to find themselves living in waterford city if the boundary extension is ratified, i'd have to request a reality check - would people living in a suburb of waterford city in ferrybank seriously be worried to discover they live in a city, cop on lads.

leave hurling, history and the sad border rivalry aside - when it comes down to it - despite the inevitable parochial childishness of kilkenny councillors and GAA County Board waffle, this will be judged purely on the basis of the rationale as outlined in the report prepared to support the official request under the Part V of the Local Government Act, 1991, and Local Government (Boundary Alteration) Regulations, 1996.

The fact is that the urban area of waterford (which the economy and society of much of south kilkenny largely depends) is underbounded and as a result -administratively distorted - this is a huge negative and creates imbalanced planning and an immature tradition of competitiveness (eg Kilkenny's efforts on the shopping centre in ferrybank).

Kilkenny County Council should reflect on the reality - they are a mainly rural County Council who happen to administer part of a city's suburbs - this is perverse (in planning + local government terms) and this should be altered to ensure effective local government and proper planning and sustainable development - and to ensure that they focus attention on managing their existing rural catchment.

this is so important for the city of waterford. it is more important for the future of the city than any bypass, radiotherapy service or university. best of luck.

and to the inevitable parish pump politicians who will surely burst a vessel on the proposal - grow up do your job and administer efficiently - for once