driving on motorways with provisional licence

pontovic

Before I had a car I spent a fortune in time and money on trains and buses getting about. I went to DCU for four years and I was rarely on time for my nine o' clock lectures If I got the bus in. Sometimes we would carpool and my mate would drive us in. I believe I have as much right to drive into work as anyone who has a full licence, but I wont and dont do it on the motorway because thats illegal and theres alot of traffic there anyway.

As cap'n midnight pointed out, the learners could get off the road and catch a bus, but then I dont think he/she would be so quick to say that if he/she was in my position. I think that drivers on provisional licences arent always necessarily complete newbies on the road, but they are percieved like that here and I dont think its fair.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

I think that drivers on provisional licences arent always necessarily complete newbies on the road, but they are percieved like that here and I dont think its fair.

That's the system you're stuck with. Until proven otherwise, all learners are equal. There is no way to tell otherwise.

amerden

pontovic wrote:

Before I had a car I spent a fortune in time and money on trains and buses getting about. I went to DCU for four years and I was rarely on time for my nine o' clock lectures If I got the bus in. Sometimes we would carpool and my mate would drive us in. I believe I have as much right to drive into work as anyone who has a full licence, but I wont and dont do it on the motorway because thats illegal and theres alot of traffic there anyway.

And after the first year or so at UCD I presume you classed yourself QUALIFIED (at whatever profession you were studing) or did you QUALIFY AFTER the FOUR years and exams. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And is a Doctor entitled to practice after studying for a few years, or does he have to do a "TEST" to see if he is competent and SAFE to treat people. !!!!!!!!!!!

pontovic

Those are completely different things amerden and you know it. Learning to drive, like learning in university, is a continious thing and it doesnt stop the minute you get your degree or driving test. A good thing about my college course is that you were sent out to the workplace for 6 months in third year to give you a chance to practice what it would be like to work in your industry.

I didnt classify myself as qualified in first year to go out and work in the IT industry, insofar as I would need a degree, but I have my degree now, but I believe that I am qualified to drive on the roads, just not on the motorways. I am as quallified to drive on these roads as much as anyone with a full licence, with the exception being motorways, just as you were qualified to drive when you had/have your provisional licence. By the way, didnt I say that I wouldn't and dont drive in on the motorway into work ?

Capt'n Midnight

Short answer.
Check with your insurance company if you have insurance on the motorway and if they say yes get it in writing.

Slightly OT RANT
the rest of this post is about a problem caused by the govermnents over the last three decades and how it pushes people to try to justify breaking the law.

pontovic wrote:

I wasnt moaning about anything. Where did you get that from ?? I was only asking about it !! Im not saying we are victimised aswell in any way.

Like Mike said not enough Hurrumph!
This type of thread pops up so often and the attitude amongst many provisional drivers is that they seem to demand more rights then they are legally entitled to despite the fact that we have far and away the most relaxed learner laws of any developed country. It was a generic answer to a generic question not just to your specific case. Having had several near-death experiances when travelling with someone who though they could drive, I don't believe in self-certification to operate something that is one of the main preventable causes of death in this country.


Drivers have a duty to not endanger others rather than a right to drive.

pontovic wrote:

Thats not a very valid argument. People need to get to work and back and I believe they have the right to do that. You cant section off drivers on a provisional licence and keep them off the road. Remember, you once had a provisional licence too.

My counter argument is the governments have had 26 years to sort this out or enforce the law. They have done neither, and the result is that most drivers have driven illegally at some stage. Check with the Tax office as to when you can claim a refund on transort costs, they do not deem driving to work essential.

In fairness, I had no idea I was going to be driving a year before I actually started. Its quite an expensive business doing that. The backlog is huge over here. We dont have that problem in other EU countries. Would it be fari to say infact that you could get all your lessons and do your test and have your full licence in the space of 5 months in somewhere like Holland or Spain ?

In the UK the average person should be able to pass a test after 30 hours of instruction, waiting times are in the order of three weeks. There's a Korean guy who has taken a stupid number of tests ~300 to get his license ( he had problems with the reading part ) - point is he had the opportunity to do so.

If you drive responsibly and you have read the books and taken all your lessons and had plenty of practicefor your test and you have done it right, then I believe you know how to drive as much as someone who has their full licence.

You could say the same thing about AIDS and safe sex, but the stats on what actually happens speak for themselvers. The real problem is that the government is denying you the opportunity to show you can drive.
50% of people fail their test and by developed country standards it's a short uncomplicated test. And that's the ones who reckon they are ready to do the test, it excludes many people driving around on their own "learning". On that basis we can't continue to have people on L plates self-certify themselves to drive unaccompanied. When the numbers who pass the test first time are consistantly above 95% then maybe, possibly consider a rethink.

In fairness now in any other OECD country I would probably have had the opportunity to take my test and get my full licence by now.

Was it posted by someone else here ? but I've heard of someone asking to do a driving test in Oz and told come back that afternoon !

Because 400 people get killed every year on the road, we can't be complacent. Cars are killing machines. Allowing people to drive on their 2nd provisional on their own is crazy. Even worse IMHO is allowing them to drive illegaly on other provisionals and on motorways, and then they wonder why people don't obey other rules of the road. You have to instill safety when people are learning, you can do that by getting people to obey the rules and laws by simply enforcing. Bad habits are hard to get rid of and the powers that be don't seem to care about this.

About 1/10 of the population has a provisional license, the percentage of drivers without a full license is even higher. Also maybe 1 in 15 cars doesn't have valid insurance. Any sort of a clampdown will yeild results very fast. And I'll say it again a clampdown on illegal driving would be cheaper than building more roads. And it would sort out many problems for legit drivers.

Hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers.

Victor

pontovic wrote:

I believe I have as much right to drive into work as anyone who has a full licence

They have a full licence, you don't. Sorry, but the law is technical.

Illkillya

eth0_ wrote:

The majority of people only have once a week lessons. The majority of people wouldn't be likely to pass their test after only 5 months driving. especially if you're driving on your own all the time, you'd have so many bad habits.

Theres no reason to assume that pontovic is one of this "majority". I don't know anyone who took weekly lessons for 5 months, that would cost a fortune. I drove to work and around the place for 6 months, then got 2 lessons a few days before the test, then passed the test in the first go - I have no reason to believe that pontovic wouldn't be capable of this, its not particularly difficult.

You do have just as much right to drive into work as anyone else, provided you have a fully licenced driver in the car with you while you're on the first provisional, assuming you're not going on the motorway. I sympathise with people, probably like yourself, naturally good drivers with 6 months or so experience, having to suffer another few months of high insurance and being treated like a horse and cart just because of the long waiting list at the test center, even though they would easily pass the test.

My brother drove for 8 years with a full American licence, but he moved to the Netherlands a few years ago and has not been driving since then. When he moves back to Ireland this summer, he will be forced to apply for a provisional licence. With no no-claims bonus, and a provisional licence, his insurance will be very high, and he will have to put up with the L rules probably for 6+ months while he waits for his full licence. He could be a former chauffer for the president of the USA and still he would be required to find a fully licenced driver to sit in the car with him everytime he had to nip down to the shop for a pint of milk, for 6+ months. The house is miles out in the bog, there is no bus... how is he going to take his daughter to school? Because of the insanely long waiting list, I'm glad that the guards are lenient when it comes to the fully licenced driver rule. But at the same time it allows for half blind nuns struggling to see over the steering wheel and the like driving around by themselves. Last month a nun stopped my friend and I in Cork city because she had car trouble. She said it couldn't start, it was a 05 focus. My friend sat into the car, turned the key, and it started instantly. This nun drove away by herself... says it all really.

Drivers should be better prepared before they are allowed on the roads. And yes, it is ridiculous that someone should be rewarded for not being able to pass their test in the time it takes for a provisional licence to expire, by being given almost complete freedom on the road. Something like the Drivers Ed that they have in USA would be handy. They should really take a stand on the learner laws - either enforce them or change them. And if you're enforcing them, then do so with the superlong waiting lists in mind.

pontovic, there are loads of L drivers on the motorway, the guards don't seem to care... in fact when I was a learner, I got lost in the fog one night at 4am... I kind of knew the way back but a garda thought I was looking suspicious (I did a full circle around a roundabout and it looked like I was dodging the squad car) so I asked him for directions. He had a good look at my licence and my L plates, and although there were 2 equal routes to take, he told me to take the M50 But like everything, you're taking a chance, and you gotta ask yourself: 'Do I feel lucky'? Well do ya? PUNK????

Alun

Two things re: the above post. Why doesn't your brother get his driving licence in the Netherlands while he's there? The whole procedure is a little more thorough than it is here, but I'm sure he could be fasttracked through the system if he's a half way competent driver, and he'd be driving on the "right" side of the road for him too!

And why, if he knows he can't legally drive unaccompanied does he come back and live "miles out in the bog" where he knows he'll have to be reliant on a car? Doesn't make sense to me.

pontovic

Victor wrote:

They have a full licence, you don't. Sorry, but the law is technical.

Thats true but isnt it as legal for me to drive on the road as anyone else so long as I stay away from the motorways ?

I think from what I have seen here, in answering my own question about driving on the motorways, it may be as safe as houses if you know exactly what you are doing, but if you are involved in an accident you are screwed. Your insurance company will try to find ways out of paying your claim, and the cops will go to town on you.

I guess the answer is if you drive on the motorway you are taking a risk.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

Thats true but isnt it as legal for me to drive on the road as anyone else so long as I stay away from the motorways ?

Not unless you're on your second provisional.

declanoneill

You can drive unaccompanied if you're on your second. If you're on your first or third then you're supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with you.

Mike_Hunt

You can drive unaccompanied if you're on your second. If you're on your first or third then you're supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with you.

Why do the Gardai turn a blind eye to this one aswell. Although i'm glad they do because unemployment would rise sharply if it was enforced with people not being able to drive to work alone.

And just for your information I passed the driving test after 5 months driving with 8 lessons (i used a letter from work to get a cancellation). And thats 5 months on my own policy i hadnt had any named driver experience at all before that.

declanoneill

Mike_Hunt wrote:

Why do the Gardai turn a blind eye to this one aswell. Although i'm glad they do because unemployment would rise sharply if it was enforced with people not being able to drive to work alone.

And just for your information I passed the driving test after 5 months driving with 8 lessons (i used a letter from work to get a cancellation). And thats 5 months on my own policy i hadnt had any named driver experience at all before that.

I'm in a similar boat, I got 10 lessons over 2 months and then drove solo for a month and passed nay bother first time. Driving through rush hour traffic twice a day was great practice

GreeBo

seamus wrote:

then 78% of accidents do not involve (or are not caused by) people exceeding the posted speed limit.

So if I am stopped and someone crashed into me at 100mph would the statistics say that 50% of the cars involved in the accident were not exceeding the speed limit?
I think you need to list "caused by" and "involving" distinctly to have any weight.

Illkillya

Alun wrote:

Two things re: the above post. Why doesn't your brother get his driving licence in the Netherlands while he's there? The whole procedure is a little more thorough than it is here, but I'm sure he could be fasttracked through the system if he's a half way competent driver, and he'd be driving on the "right" side of the road for him too!

And why, if he knows he can't legally drive unaccompanied does he come back and live "miles out in the bog" where he knows he'll have to be reliant on a car? Doesn't make sense to me.

Alun, thank you for completely missing the point.

But you're right, it doesn't make sense for a guy to return to his home after 15 years to raise his kids in a safe place, which isn't advertising drugs and sex every corner, with more than a 40 sq. foot living space - that doesn't make sense at all. What was he thinking?! With a provisional licence his only barrier, of course he should scrap the plans completely. Such great insight Alun, thank you.

And to answer your first question, his circumstances in Amsterdam prevent this from being possible. Please realise that this was just an example to highlight a situation which is made very difficult by the provisional licence laws and long waiting list for test. I could have mentioned a different example, of a girl I know in a similar position who just moved back to Ireland after 10 years in USA and was not allowed to change her full American licence, even though most EU countries allow this afaik.

ambro25

Pontovic,

Just a quick one about something that struck me as odd: if (as you say) you alternate regularly between Dublin & France, why don't you instead go pass your FR driving test for a full FR license? It's just as valid to drive with it here as an IE license, and no bother from IE insurers about it either... The your problem's solved.

Also: there are no test-waiting lists in FR that I am aware of (unless possibly you're in Paris), but you are not allowed to drive on a FR motorway for a year until after you have passed your test and have to stick to 90 kph in any circumstances (even where limit on a good 4-lane 'A' road is 110).

cormie

declanoneill wrote:

You can drive unaccompanied if you're on your second. If you're on your first or third then you're supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with you.

Surely most people who would be driving on their 2nd provisional would have already taken the test, and thus failed since they are on their 2nd. Meaning they aren't the safest people to be let driving alone. People on their third shouldn't be allowed either since they haven't passed their test with 2 or more goes.

And time isn't really a factor as I'm sure there are many people who have been driving say a month, who have done more miles than somebody who has been driving a year or so. It depends on road time, not however long you have held your license.

declanoneill

cormie wrote:

Surely most people who would be driving on their 2nd provisional would have already taken the test, and thus failed since they are on their 2nd. Meaning they aren't the safest people to be let driving alone. People on their third shouldn't be allowed either since they haven't passed their test with 2 or more goes.

Yep, or it could be someone who applied for their 1st one at 17, forgot about it, got their second a few years later and then jumped in a car and off they went. Just doesn't make any sense at all.

cormie

Just out of interest, if you waited at the building where you go to meet the tester and just said, if anyone forgets their L plates, or has a dodgy car and is told to go home, can you test me instead? I wonder would they be able to fit you in? If you needed your car for an urgent trip to France and you didn't expect to be called for your test for about a year, this could be a good way to speed it up:D

pontovic

ambro25 wrote:

Pontovic,

Just a quick one about something that struck me as odd: if (as you say) you alternate regularly between Dublin & France, why don't you instead go pass your FR driving test for a full FR license? It's just as valid to drive with it here as an IE license, and no bother from IE insurers about it either... The your problem's solved.

Also: there are no test-waiting lists in FR that I am aware of (unless possibly you're in Paris), but you are not allowed to drive on a FR motorway for a year until after you have passed your test and have to stick to 90 kph in any circumstances (even where limit on a good 4-lane 'A' road is 110).

In France you have to attent a special driving school that is recognised by the French Government, and you have to have at least 15 lessons with them. This would cost a fortune for me as I have already done my 10 lessons over here and a pre-test. I dont spend enough time in France to do this also, I only pop over about 5 or 6 times a year and spend the summers there, but Im staying in Dublin now to find a job and the pay is better here. Taking the test in France is something I thought of but I think it would be better to take it here or in the UK because driving in France is alot different.

declanoneill

I've heard stories of people calling up and being able to get a test on the day (often making up a story about needing it to get a job or what have you). I imagine there's a few people who'll bottle it on the day so if you had several days where you could ring up every hour, I'm sure you'd manage to get a test.

ambro25

pontovic wrote:

In France you have to attent a special driving school that is recognised by the French Government, and you have to have at least 15 lessons with them. This would cost a fortune for me as I have already done my 10 lessons over here and a pre-test. I dont spend enough time in France to do this also, I only pop over about 5 or 6 times a year and spend the summers there, but Im staying in Dublin now to find a job and the pay is better here. Taking the test in France is something I thought of but I think it would be better to take it here or in the UK because driving in France is alot different.

Erm. OK...
(i) no need for a 'special' driving school: all driving schools are State-endorsed or they're not a driving school (or practice illegally).
(ii) 15 lessons is a legal minimum if you're a total beginner (as in - never even touched the steering wheel of a bumper car). You can ask for a proficiency evaluation at registration to cut down the requirement, all the way to a single 'refresher' lesson if you're that good.
(ii) praise the Interweb, the telephone and a little bit of foresight/planning.
(v) actually, I don't think driving in France differs so much from driving here: people are just as tunnel-visionned, selfish, arrogant and downright dangerous. The very contrary of the UK, generally. (btw, cumulative time spent driving in France:15 years, UK:11 years, Ireland:1 year).

But, hey, it's your insurance premium, mate - please yourself

Alun

But you're right, it doesn't make sense for a guy to return to his home after 15 years to raise his kids in a safe place, which isn't advertising drugs and sex every corner, with more than a 40 sq. foot living space - that doesn't make sense at all. What was he thinking?! With a provisional licence his only barrier, of course he should scrap the plans completely. Such great insight Alun, thank you.

Just because you want/need to move back to Ireland doesn't mean you have to live in the middle of nowhere with no public transport links. That's a deliberate choice you're making, and one that isn't compatible with not being allowed to drive.

Anyway, getting back to the real world for a moment, exchanging US licenses is possible in some EU countries, for some US states, i.e. those that operate a reciprocal agreement with that country. France is one of those and they will accept licenses from a handful of US states. Ireland and the UK don't.

pontovic

Just out of curiosity, can I go over to another EU country where the full licence there will get you a full licence here and do my test ? Would I need to get a provisional licence for that country, or would a provisional licence from ireland suffice ? My cousin in the UK lives next to a test center, so I could apply there maybe and do my test, and stay in their house for the week ? Anyone had any experience on this ?

Alun

You have to have a UK provisional licence to do that, and to get that you have to be resident in the UK, not just visiting for a weekend. Sorry.

pontovic

would it help i wonder if my mother is english ?

Alun

would it help i wonder if my mother is english ?

Why should it? What is it with the problem people here have with the concept of residency? You don't live there, pay your taxes there etc, ergo you are not resident, regardless of where your mother comes from.

Nuttzz

if you applied for your english provisional licence and test from an english address I dont see why you couldnt do the test over there tbh.

pontovic

Alun wrote:

Why should it? What is it with the problem people here have with the concept of residency? You don't live there, pay your taxes there etc, ergo you are not resident, regardless of where your mother comes from.

I am an EU citizen, however, so maybe that should have something to do with it ? Im not 100% on what the story is there, so thats why I'm asking.

Alun

pontovic wrote:

I am an EU citizen, however, so maybe that should have something to do with it ? Im not 100% on what the story is there, so thats why I'm asking.

So am I (not Irish, BTW), but I'm not resident in the UK, and am therfore not allowed to obtain a UK provisional licence. Look at the regulations on the DVLA website if you don't believe me.

We have these same discussions every time this topic, or the old VRT chestnut, comes up. Just because your mother's maiden aunt was English, or your brother's girlfriend's father in law lives in NI and you stay there sometimes at weekends doesn't magically give you UK residency status. Live with it.