driving on motorways with provisional licence

pontovic

Hi, I was having a chat with my friends about driving on the motorways with a provisional licence and I wanted to know what you guys think about it ? I have 5 months driving experience and I have done alot of driving etc, but I still only have my irish provisional licence owing to the backlog here.

Would you call it completely crazy to drive on the M50 or on the M7 down to Limerick on the odd occasion ? Would I really be flouting the law ? Im covered on my own car on my own policy with Quinn Direct. Am I insured to drive on the motorway even though it is technically illegal ? Do many of you guys out there with provisional licences drive on the motorway, and if so, do you take down your learner plates when doing so ?

Thanks

Nuttzz

its illegal, your insurance will probably chase you for any claim, your less likely to have a accident on a motorway, i have seen plenty of L plates on the m50, i know L drivers who use the m50 for their daily commute.

pontovic

I did a quick search there after posting this and I have seen that alot of other posters are very quick to condemn provisional licence drivers and blame them for all the nasty road accidents, and tell them to keep off the road. You cant always point the finger at them. To be honest, I believe that I am a safe driver because I really make a point of being cautious, and I never take any chances on the road with regard cutting lanes and speeding.

If I could take the test tomorrow I would take it and hopefully I would pass it, but because there is a massive backlog here I cannot do that. I may even take my test in the UK to beat the queue over here.

Would it be fair to say that the main cause of accidents on the road are:

--people driving too fast
--people driving while tired/falling asleep at the wheel
--people drinking and driving

I cannot keep count of how many times I have been overtaken by older driverts on roads when I am doing the speed limit, especially in 60km/h and 100km/h zones. Even the cops flew past me without indicating when I was driving in Howth. My point is, that you cannot point the finger all the time at learner drivers or at any group in particular.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

Would it be fair to say that the main cause of accidents on the road are:

--people driving too fast
--people driving while tired/falling asleep at the wheel
--people drinking and driving

People driving too fast for the given conditions. It's a small point, but it's important. A massive proportion of people killed on our roads are driving at or below the posted limit.

mike65

pontovic would you ever update your location - its Dublin not France! Its a bit confusing. Also it does'nt matter a hoot how safe you are if you're involved in a crash you'll get done regardless of who's fault it is.

Mike.

eth0_

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

Capt'n Midnight

pontovic wrote:

My point is, that you cannot point the finger all the time at learner drivers or at any group in particular.

Quit moaning - in any other OECD country you would not be allowed on the road and if caught would face serious consequences.

Look at the conditions imposed on people up north during the first year after they have passed their test - you have it easy down here - again stop with the "poor victimised us" routine.

The only problem you have is waiting times - and as you say do your test in another EU country OR moan about it to your TD.

You can point the finger at people driving illegally each and every time, you can also point at the authorities for not enforcing the law , but you still have to obey it.

And yes I know dangerous learners who THINK they can drive, some learners may be the safest drivers on the road BUT most IMHO over estimate thier abilites, until AFTER they've had near misses.

Until there is something to force the government to provide prompt and proper driver testing the madness will continue. If the Gardai were to enforce the laws the backlash might get the government to act. (yes I know they are fast tracking new testers - but this is the same crowd that claimed to have delivered 2,000 new Gardai when the real increase on the street would all have been able to fit on one bus.) Also if the Gardai were to clamp down on people without L plates and also those driving on thier own on anything but a second provsional, it would free up a lot of congestion, some of us could save an HOUR A DAY commuting.

It's not your fault it takes so long to pass a driving test here, but that problem has been around since before most people on the list were born so you can't say you didn't know If you wanted to drive on motorways - simply apply for your test a year earlier.

We should take a class action against the insurace companies for continuing to pay out for drivers who drive illegaly.

And no I don't think learner drivers cause all the problems, but it's a great place to start since abuse of the law is so blatent, and unlike speed traps won't be seen as a revenue generating scam.

Talk to your TD, in any other country you would not be allowed on the road.

RainyDay

seamus wrote:

A massive proportion of people killed on our roads are driving at or below the posted limit.

Got a source for this?

pontovic

eth0_ wrote:

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

Get off your high hourse for **** sake. I never at any stage said I was a whizz. Whats your point exactly? You have contributed nothing to this conversation really, Im only asking so dont bite my ****ing head off !!!! and dont be so quick to jump to conclusions about my driving ! how do you know Id fail after 5 months ??

mike65

Cool it pontovic, as you have'nt actually done anything wrong I'd hate to ban you. Capt'n Midnight could have been a little less "hrumph!" in tone even though his points are pretty much spot on.

Mike.

seamus

RainyDay wrote:

Got a source for this?

Not anything that directly says it

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d1736.PDF

Page 7.
If we take it that "Exceeded Safe Speed Limit" are people who were driving above the speed limit*, then 78% of accidents do not involve (or are not caused by) people exceeding the posted speed limit.

*This is ambiguous as to whether the "Safe Speed Limit" is the posted speed limit, or the safe speed to drive, given the conditions

cormie

I drove on the M50 from Sandyford to Finglas and back every day for 5 months on a provisional. Never a problem. I was going to college and had 3 passengers with me, no L plates up. Another guy in the college who had a blue corsa with tinted windows and a 4 passengers was stopped twice on it. I have a Nissan Micra, no tinted windows or any mods. Maybe he was speeding, I don't know.

I think it's wrong to say that just because you pass your full test means you are then safe to drive on a Motorway, so you could be driving for a year and if you kept to the rules, you would have no experience with a motorway as you shouldnt have been on it.

So if, let's call him Dimitrious, was driving for 5 months and got a letter from his employer to get his test sped up where pontovic was also driving for 5 months but had to wait another 5 months before his test. And Dimitrious had never been on a Motorway but Pontovic had been for say 3 months every day. Imagine both drivers had the exact same amount of time spent behind the wheel but Pontovic had spent some on the Motorway, you can't say just because Dimitrious passed his test which Pontovic would too if he had the opportunity to take it (lets just say he would pass anyway) that Dimitrious is safer on a Motorway than Pontovic is.

Of course, there is the thing that Dimitrious would probably be safer on the Motorway for his first time after 5 months experience than Pontovic would have been after 2 months experience. But that's not the point

Anyway, if you do have an accident on the Motorway, there is a big possibility you wont have to deal with the insurance companies, as you wont be around to:(

pontovic

mike65 wrote:

Cool it pontovic, as you have'nt actually done anything wrong I'd hate to ban you. Capt'n Midnight could have been a little less "hrumph!" in tone even though his points are pretty much spot on.

Mike.

In fairness I am fairly relaxed its when people come on and start mouthing off for no real reason. I wasnt directing my last post at Capn Midnight it was at eth0_

Hotblack Desiato

What Seamus said. IOW, just because you're within the speed limit doesn't mean you are going at a safe speed. It seems to me that very few Irish drivers grasp this. They certainly don't grasp the concept of a safe following distance...

Learners are not licensed to drive on motorways. It is a condition of every insurance policy that you hold a valid licence; if you violate the conditions of your provisional licence you are effectively driving unlicensed, and therefore also technically uninsured.

The insurance companies generally do pay out nonetheless, bumping everyone else's premiums up. In fact the law obliges them to compensate third parties, even though the policyholder was breaking the law.* The insurance company is quite entitled to sue the policyholder personally for their loss, though, and IMHO it's well past time they started to do this as a matter of course.

* There is a huge problem at the moment with young lads on mopeds carrying pillions illegally on provisional licences. When (and it's usually when, not if...) they crash, the insurance company is obliged to compensate the passenger. This is one of the major reasons bike insurance is so high, and Hibernian blamed it as a major factor in their pulling out of the bike market.

viking

I do think that its strange that no training is given to provisional drivers to prepare them for motorway driving for when they pass the test. Who is to say that they are competent enough to drive on a motorway if they've never driven on one before?

Madness...

seamus

ninja900 wrote:

Learners are not licensed to drive on motorways. It is a condition of every insurance policy that you hold a valid licence; if you violate the conditions of your provisional licence you are effectively driving unlicensed, and therefore also technically uninsured.

That's a techniciality that would be tough to argue. A provisional driver on the motorway is no more carrying a void licence, than a normal driver driving the wrong way down a one-way street. Prov drivers are not "unlicensed" to drive on the motorway, they are "Prohibited", exactly the same as speeding, drink-driving, incorrect overtaking are prohibited. None of these activities however, invalidate your licence either. Insurance companies are bound to insure you by law, even if you crash while breaking the law.

In the UK, as far as I know the situation is different. A provisional driver driving alone, is effectively driving legally unlicenced, and therefore uninsured.

pontovic

by the way just so you all know, i dont drive on the motorway at all. i have no need to. i never at any stage during any posts on this topic mentioned that i have ever or currently do drive on it. im saying this to avoid further occurrances of people jumping down my throat about it. it was a topic of conversation recently, and thats why i posted it here. people on these boards should not be so quick to attack others.

just another quick point. provisional drivers are allowed to drive on dual carriageways, so arent they the same as motorways, with the speed limit being 100km/h as opposed to 120km/h ?

pontovic

mike65 wrote:

pontovic would you ever update your location - its Dublin not France! Its a bit confusing.
Mike.

its a bit of both in fairness, i move back and forth

cormie

There is a big difference going 100 and 120, in a 1L Nissan Micra anyway

Hotblack Desiato

seamus wrote:

Prov drivers are not "unlicensed" to drive on the motorway, they are "Prohibited", exactly the same as speeding, drink-driving, incorrect overtaking are prohibited.

OK, I think you're right - however it's odd that the Gardai completely ignore this prohibition...

In the UK, as far as I know the situation is different. A provisional driver driving alone, is effectively driving legally unlicenced, and therefore uninsured.

That's not a prohibition on driving in a particular place, it's a fundamental condition of the provisional licence.
I think our provisional licence regulations are couched in broadly the same terms as theirs, after all, Ireland and the UK are pretty much alone in Europe in even having provisional licences. The difference is that in the UK they enforce the law! (and, idiotically, we allow holders of a 2nd provisional to drive unaccompanied, making the law unenforceable.)

Oh and Cormie, in stating that you habitually broke the provisional licence laws, doesn't that run the risk of encouraging or condoning lack of respect for road traffic law? I just find the attitude of most people in Ireland curious in this respect - that road traffic laws aren't "real" laws.

Hotblack Desiato

cormie wrote:

I think it's wrong to say that just because you pass your full test means you are then safe to drive on a Motorway

Passing your test doesn't prove that at any particular time on any particular road, your driving will be safe. It DOES prove that on one day, for 45 minutes you were able to drive competently and within the law under the supervision of a tester. It's far from perfect but it's the only test we have. To suggest (as others have done) that someone who has either not taken, or failed, this test should be afforded the same driving privileges as a full licence holder is nuts, in my opinion.

IF learners were allowed on motorways, then gob5hite driving instructors (of which we have an abundance) would be taking learners on these roads who are not sufficiently competent or experienced to cope with the higher speeds involved. It's bad enough at the moment with some driving schools taking clearly very inexperienced pupils out onto busy main roads before they're ready.

pontovic

pontovic wrote:

just another quick point. provisional drivers are allowed to drive on dual carriageways, so arent they the same as motorways, with the speed limit being 100km/h as opposed to 120km/h ?

my point there by the way is that learner drivers can get to experience to a certain degree the way one should drive on a motorway. driving rules on dual carriageways apply to motorways too dont they ?

Balfa

The driving experience on a limited access motorway is completely different to that on a light-controlled dual-carriageway. You can't compare the two at all. Although I do reckon that motorway driving is easier and safer, it's still totally different And the fact that it's easier means you have to try harder to be aware and alert. And being aware and alert is more important when you're at the higher speed.

And eth0_, if someone had 5 months of once-a-day driving instruction from a good instructor, i'd very much expect them to pass their test.

Nuttzz

eth0_ wrote:

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

I had an employee who passed her test after being just 3 months on the road......

eth0_

Balfa wrote:

And eth0_, if someone had 5 months of once-a-day driving instruction from a good instructor, i'd very much expect them to pass their test.

The majority of people only have once a week lessons. The majority of people wouldn't be likely to pass their test after only 5 months driving. especially if you're driving on your own all the time, you'd have so many bad habits.

pontovic

eth0 do you drive yourself ?

Macy

pontovic wrote:

Would it be fair to say that the main cause of accidents on the road are:

--people driving too fast
--people driving while tired/falling asleep at the wheel
--people drinking and driving

According to the latest campaign, over half are caused by drink driving. Not that you see them stopping people in the morning rush hour for that :rolleyes:

Basically, I think they just massage the figures to suit whichever campaign they're running...

eth0_

eth0_ wrote:

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

:rolleyes:
He didn't come accross as boasting at all.
Perhaps you should hop of your high horse?

pontovic

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Quit moaning - in any other OECD country you would not be allowed on the road and if caught would face serious consequences.

Look at the conditions imposed on people up north during the first year after they have passed their test - you have it easy down here - again stop with the "poor victimised us" routine.

I wasnt moaning about anything. Where did you get that from ?? I was only asking about it !! Im not saying we are victimised aswell in any way.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You can point the finger at people driving illegally each and every time, you can also point at the authorities for not enforcing the law , but you still have to obey it.

Fair enough

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

And yes I know dangerous learners who THINK they can drive, some learners may be the safest drivers on the road BUT most IMHO over estimate thier abilites, until AFTER they've had near misses.

Fair enough but personally I would not put myself in a situation where I was driving without not knowing fully what I am doing. Its too much of a risk.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Also if the Gardai were to clamp down on people without L plates and also those driving on thier own on anything but a second provsional, it would free up a lot of congestion, some of us could save an HOUR A DAY commuting.

Thats not a very valid argument. People need to get to work and back and I believe they have the right to do that. You cant section off drivers on a provisional licence and keep them off the road. Remember, you once had a provisional licence too.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

It's not your fault it takes so long to pass a driving test here, but that problem has been around since before most people on the list were born so you can't say you didn't know If you wanted to drive on motorways - simply apply for your test a year earlier.

In fairness, I had no idea I was going to be driving a year before I actually started. Its quite an expensive business doing that. The backlog is huge over here. We dont have that problem in other EU countries. Would it be fari to say infact that you could get all your lessons and do your test and have your full licence in the space of 5 months in somewhere like Holland or Spain ?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

We should take a class action against the insurace companies for continuing to pay out for drivers who drive illegaly.

Any idea where I can find statistics on the number of payouts made by insurance companies for accidents caused by drivers on motorways driving on a first or second provisional licence ?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

And no I don't think learner drivers cause all the problems, but it's a great place to start since abuse of the law is so blatent, and unlike speed traps won't be seen as a revenue generating scam.

In fairness, there can be a difference I believe in learner drivers and drivers on a provisional licence. Its only a matter of time before you know how to drive, if there is a solid definition for actually knowing how to drive. If you drive responsibly and you have read the books and taken all your lessons and had plenty of practicefor your test and you have done it right, then I believe you know how to drive as much as someone who has their full licence.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Talk to your TD, in any other country you would not be allowed on the road.

In fairness now in any other OECD country I would probably have had the opportunity to take my test and get my full licence by now.

Just to let you all know, I take driving very seriously, and I have read a very good book about it called 'Get It', The Irish Driving Test. Some good info in there and its for sale in garages for about 10 euro. A handy read. I got it recently.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

Thats not a very valid argument. People need to get to work and back and I believe they have the right to do that. You cant section off drivers on a provisional licence and keep them off the road. Remember, you once had a provisional licence too.

People have a right to get to work, but not to break the law in doing so. Nobody needs a car in the truest sense of the word. It's a convenience. How did you commute before you got a car? Why can't you move closer to work, etc etc? The "I need a car to get to _______" argument is always trotted out, and it's the weakest argument there is. The ironic thing is, as Cap'n Midnight points out, if provisional drivers got off the road and took the bus, the bus might actually be reliable enough to take!

I see where you're coming from in your arguments, but you can't escape the fact that you're a learner. All the "I'm a safe driver"'s in the world doesn't prove it so. You may in fact be good enough to be a fully licenced driver, I don't know. Some people enter college, and by the end of second year are good enough to be fully qualified. But that doesn't make them fully qualified. They still have to wait and pass the exams.

Nuttzz

we can argue this til doomsday but the fact is the waiting list for tests needs to be tackled and reduced to a month or two and then the test need to be overhauled.

/edit: just out of interest should we bother with provisional licences at all, i know people who just use them for ID :eek: