driving on motorways with provisional licence

pontovic

Hi, I was having a chat with my friends about driving on the motorways with a provisional licence and I wanted to know what you guys think about it ? I have 5 months driving experience and I have done alot of driving etc, but I still only have my irish provisional licence owing to the backlog here.

Would you call it completely crazy to drive on the M50 or on the M7 down to Limerick on the odd occasion ? Would I really be flouting the law ? Im covered on my own car on my own policy with Quinn Direct. Am I insured to drive on the motorway even though it is technically illegal ? Do many of you guys out there with provisional licences drive on the motorway, and if so, do you take down your learner plates when doing so ?

Thanks

Nuttzz

its illegal, your insurance will probably chase you for any claim, your less likely to have a accident on a motorway, i have seen plenty of L plates on the m50, i know L drivers who use the m50 for their daily commute.

pontovic

I did a quick search there after posting this and I have seen that alot of other posters are very quick to condemn provisional licence drivers and blame them for all the nasty road accidents, and tell them to keep off the road. You cant always point the finger at them. To be honest, I believe that I am a safe driver because I really make a point of being cautious, and I never take any chances on the road with regard cutting lanes and speeding.

If I could take the test tomorrow I would take it and hopefully I would pass it, but because there is a massive backlog here I cannot do that. I may even take my test in the UK to beat the queue over here.

Would it be fair to say that the main cause of accidents on the road are:

--people driving too fast
--people driving while tired/falling asleep at the wheel
--people drinking and driving

I cannot keep count of how many times I have been overtaken by older driverts on roads when I am doing the speed limit, especially in 60km/h and 100km/h zones. Even the cops flew past me without indicating when I was driving in Howth. My point is, that you cannot point the finger all the time at learner drivers or at any group in particular.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

Would it be fair to say that the main cause of accidents on the road are:

--people driving too fast
--people driving while tired/falling asleep at the wheel
--people drinking and driving

People driving too fast for the given conditions. It's a small point, but it's important. A massive proportion of people killed on our roads are driving at or below the posted limit.

mike65

pontovic would you ever update your location - its Dublin not France! Its a bit confusing. Also it does'nt matter a hoot how safe you are if you're involved in a crash you'll get done regardless of who's fault it is.

Mike.

eth0_

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

Capt'n Midnight

pontovic wrote:

My point is, that you cannot point the finger all the time at learner drivers or at any group in particular.

Quit moaning - in any other OECD country you would not be allowed on the road and if caught would face serious consequences.

Look at the conditions imposed on people up north during the first year after they have passed their test - you have it easy down here - again stop with the "poor victimised us" routine.

The only problem you have is waiting times - and as you say do your test in another EU country OR moan about it to your TD.

You can point the finger at people driving illegally each and every time, you can also point at the authorities for not enforcing the law , but you still have to obey it.

And yes I know dangerous learners who THINK they can drive, some learners may be the safest drivers on the road BUT most IMHO over estimate thier abilites, until AFTER they've had near misses.

Until there is something to force the government to provide prompt and proper driver testing the madness will continue. If the Gardai were to enforce the laws the backlash might get the government to act. (yes I know they are fast tracking new testers - but this is the same crowd that claimed to have delivered 2,000 new Gardai when the real increase on the street would all have been able to fit on one bus.) Also if the Gardai were to clamp down on people without L plates and also those driving on thier own on anything but a second provsional, it would free up a lot of congestion, some of us could save an HOUR A DAY commuting.

It's not your fault it takes so long to pass a driving test here, but that problem has been around since before most people on the list were born so you can't say you didn't know If you wanted to drive on motorways - simply apply for your test a year earlier.

We should take a class action against the insurace companies for continuing to pay out for drivers who drive illegaly.

And no I don't think learner drivers cause all the problems, but it's a great place to start since abuse of the law is so blatent, and unlike speed traps won't be seen as a revenue generating scam.

Talk to your TD, in any other country you would not be allowed on the road.

RainyDay

seamus wrote:

A massive proportion of people killed on our roads are driving at or below the posted limit.

Got a source for this?

pontovic

eth0_ wrote:

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

Get off your high hourse for **** sake. I never at any stage said I was a whizz. Whats your point exactly? You have contributed nothing to this conversation really, Im only asking so dont bite my ****ing head off !!!! and dont be so quick to jump to conclusions about my driving ! how do you know Id fail after 5 months ??

mike65

Cool it pontovic, as you have'nt actually done anything wrong I'd hate to ban you. Capt'n Midnight could have been a little less "hrumph!" in tone even though his points are pretty much spot on.

Mike.

seamus

RainyDay wrote:

Got a source for this?

Not anything that directly says it

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d1736.PDF

Page 7.
If we take it that "Exceeded Safe Speed Limit" are people who were driving above the speed limit*, then 78% of accidents do not involve (or are not caused by) people exceeding the posted speed limit.

*This is ambiguous as to whether the "Safe Speed Limit" is the posted speed limit, or the safe speed to drive, given the conditions

cormie

I drove on the M50 from Sandyford to Finglas and back every day for 5 months on a provisional. Never a problem. I was going to college and had 3 passengers with me, no L plates up. Another guy in the college who had a blue corsa with tinted windows and a 4 passengers was stopped twice on it. I have a Nissan Micra, no tinted windows or any mods. Maybe he was speeding, I don't know.

I think it's wrong to say that just because you pass your full test means you are then safe to drive on a Motorway, so you could be driving for a year and if you kept to the rules, you would have no experience with a motorway as you shouldnt have been on it.

So if, let's call him Dimitrious, was driving for 5 months and got a letter from his employer to get his test sped up where pontovic was also driving for 5 months but had to wait another 5 months before his test. And Dimitrious had never been on a Motorway but Pontovic had been for say 3 months every day. Imagine both drivers had the exact same amount of time spent behind the wheel but Pontovic had spent some on the Motorway, you can't say just because Dimitrious passed his test which Pontovic would too if he had the opportunity to take it (lets just say he would pass anyway) that Dimitrious is safer on a Motorway than Pontovic is.

Of course, there is the thing that Dimitrious would probably be safer on the Motorway for his first time after 5 months experience than Pontovic would have been after 2 months experience. But that's not the point

Anyway, if you do have an accident on the Motorway, there is a big possibility you wont have to deal with the insurance companies, as you wont be around to:(

pontovic

mike65 wrote:

Cool it pontovic, as you have'nt actually done anything wrong I'd hate to ban you. Capt'n Midnight could have been a little less "hrumph!" in tone even though his points are pretty much spot on.

Mike.

In fairness I am fairly relaxed its when people come on and start mouthing off for no real reason. I wasnt directing my last post at Capn Midnight it was at eth0_

Hotblack Desiato

What Seamus said. IOW, just because you're within the speed limit doesn't mean you are going at a safe speed. It seems to me that very few Irish drivers grasp this. They certainly don't grasp the concept of a safe following distance...

Learners are not licensed to drive on motorways. It is a condition of every insurance policy that you hold a valid licence; if you violate the conditions of your provisional licence you are effectively driving unlicensed, and therefore also technically uninsured.

The insurance companies generally do pay out nonetheless, bumping everyone else's premiums up. In fact the law obliges them to compensate third parties, even though the policyholder was breaking the law.* The insurance company is quite entitled to sue the policyholder personally for their loss, though, and IMHO it's well past time they started to do this as a matter of course.

* There is a huge problem at the moment with young lads on mopeds carrying pillions illegally on provisional licences. When (and it's usually when, not if...) they crash, the insurance company is obliged to compensate the passenger. This is one of the major reasons bike insurance is so high, and Hibernian blamed it as a major factor in their pulling out of the bike market.

viking

I do think that its strange that no training is given to provisional drivers to prepare them for motorway driving for when they pass the test. Who is to say that they are competent enough to drive on a motorway if they've never driven on one before?

Madness...

seamus

ninja900 wrote:

Learners are not licensed to drive on motorways. It is a condition of every insurance policy that you hold a valid licence; if you violate the conditions of your provisional licence you are effectively driving unlicensed, and therefore also technically uninsured.

That's a techniciality that would be tough to argue. A provisional driver on the motorway is no more carrying a void licence, than a normal driver driving the wrong way down a one-way street. Prov drivers are not "unlicensed" to drive on the motorway, they are "Prohibited", exactly the same as speeding, drink-driving, incorrect overtaking are prohibited. None of these activities however, invalidate your licence either. Insurance companies are bound to insure you by law, even if you crash while breaking the law.

In the UK, as far as I know the situation is different. A provisional driver driving alone, is effectively driving legally unlicenced, and therefore uninsured.

pontovic

by the way just so you all know, i dont drive on the motorway at all. i have no need to. i never at any stage during any posts on this topic mentioned that i have ever or currently do drive on it. im saying this to avoid further occurrances of people jumping down my throat about it. it was a topic of conversation recently, and thats why i posted it here. people on these boards should not be so quick to attack others.

just another quick point. provisional drivers are allowed to drive on dual carriageways, so arent they the same as motorways, with the speed limit being 100km/h as opposed to 120km/h ?

pontovic

mike65 wrote:

pontovic would you ever update your location - its Dublin not France! Its a bit confusing.
Mike.

its a bit of both in fairness, i move back and forth

cormie

There is a big difference going 100 and 120, in a 1L Nissan Micra anyway

Hotblack Desiato

seamus wrote:

Prov drivers are not "unlicensed" to drive on the motorway, they are "Prohibited", exactly the same as speeding, drink-driving, incorrect overtaking are prohibited.

OK, I think you're right - however it's odd that the Gardai completely ignore this prohibition...

In the UK, as far as I know the situation is different. A provisional driver driving alone, is effectively driving legally unlicenced, and therefore uninsured.

That's not a prohibition on driving in a particular place, it's a fundamental condition of the provisional licence.
I think our provisional licence regulations are couched in broadly the same terms as theirs, after all, Ireland and the UK are pretty much alone in Europe in even having provisional licences. The difference is that in the UK they enforce the law! (and, idiotically, we allow holders of a 2nd provisional to drive unaccompanied, making the law unenforceable.)

Oh and Cormie, in stating that you habitually broke the provisional licence laws, doesn't that run the risk of encouraging or condoning lack of respect for road traffic law? I just find the attitude of most people in Ireland curious in this respect - that road traffic laws aren't "real" laws.

Hotblack Desiato

cormie wrote:

I think it's wrong to say that just because you pass your full test means you are then safe to drive on a Motorway

Passing your test doesn't prove that at any particular time on any particular road, your driving will be safe. It DOES prove that on one day, for 45 minutes you were able to drive competently and within the law under the supervision of a tester. It's far from perfect but it's the only test we have. To suggest (as others have done) that someone who has either not taken, or failed, this test should be afforded the same driving privileges as a full licence holder is nuts, in my opinion.

IF learners were allowed on motorways, then gob5hite driving instructors (of which we have an abundance) would be taking learners on these roads who are not sufficiently competent or experienced to cope with the higher speeds involved. It's bad enough at the moment with some driving schools taking clearly very inexperienced pupils out onto busy main roads before they're ready.

pontovic

pontovic wrote:

just another quick point. provisional drivers are allowed to drive on dual carriageways, so arent they the same as motorways, with the speed limit being 100km/h as opposed to 120km/h ?

my point there by the way is that learner drivers can get to experience to a certain degree the way one should drive on a motorway. driving rules on dual carriageways apply to motorways too dont they ?

Balfa

The driving experience on a limited access motorway is completely different to that on a light-controlled dual-carriageway. You can't compare the two at all. Although I do reckon that motorway driving is easier and safer, it's still totally different And the fact that it's easier means you have to try harder to be aware and alert. And being aware and alert is more important when you're at the higher speed.

And eth0_, if someone had 5 months of once-a-day driving instruction from a good instructor, i'd very much expect them to pass their test.

Nuttzz

eth0_ wrote:

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

I had an employee who passed her test after being just 3 months on the road......

eth0_

Balfa wrote:

And eth0_, if someone had 5 months of once-a-day driving instruction from a good instructor, i'd very much expect them to pass their test.

The majority of people only have once a week lessons. The majority of people wouldn't be likely to pass their test after only 5 months driving. especially if you're driving on your own all the time, you'd have so many bad habits.

pontovic

eth0 do you drive yourself ?

Macy

pontovic wrote:

Would it be fair to say that the main cause of accidents on the road are:

--people driving too fast
--people driving while tired/falling asleep at the wheel
--people drinking and driving

According to the latest campaign, over half are caused by drink driving. Not that you see them stopping people in the morning rush hour for that :rolleyes:

Basically, I think they just massage the figures to suit whichever campaign they're running...

eth0_

eth0_ wrote:

Oh wow, five months experience of driving, you must be an absolute whizz!

You show a lot of audacity in claiming you'd have your full licence only for the 'backlog'.
With only five months experience it's extremely likely you'd fail your test if you took it tomorrow.

:rolleyes:
He didn't come accross as boasting at all.
Perhaps you should hop of your high horse?

pontovic

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Quit moaning - in any other OECD country you would not be allowed on the road and if caught would face serious consequences.

Look at the conditions imposed on people up north during the first year after they have passed their test - you have it easy down here - again stop with the "poor victimised us" routine.

I wasnt moaning about anything. Where did you get that from ?? I was only asking about it !! Im not saying we are victimised aswell in any way.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You can point the finger at people driving illegally each and every time, you can also point at the authorities for not enforcing the law , but you still have to obey it.

Fair enough

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

And yes I know dangerous learners who THINK they can drive, some learners may be the safest drivers on the road BUT most IMHO over estimate thier abilites, until AFTER they've had near misses.

Fair enough but personally I would not put myself in a situation where I was driving without not knowing fully what I am doing. Its too much of a risk.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Also if the Gardai were to clamp down on people without L plates and also those driving on thier own on anything but a second provsional, it would free up a lot of congestion, some of us could save an HOUR A DAY commuting.

Thats not a very valid argument. People need to get to work and back and I believe they have the right to do that. You cant section off drivers on a provisional licence and keep them off the road. Remember, you once had a provisional licence too.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

It's not your fault it takes so long to pass a driving test here, but that problem has been around since before most people on the list were born so you can't say you didn't know If you wanted to drive on motorways - simply apply for your test a year earlier.

In fairness, I had no idea I was going to be driving a year before I actually started. Its quite an expensive business doing that. The backlog is huge over here. We dont have that problem in other EU countries. Would it be fari to say infact that you could get all your lessons and do your test and have your full licence in the space of 5 months in somewhere like Holland or Spain ?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

We should take a class action against the insurace companies for continuing to pay out for drivers who drive illegaly.

Any idea where I can find statistics on the number of payouts made by insurance companies for accidents caused by drivers on motorways driving on a first or second provisional licence ?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

And no I don't think learner drivers cause all the problems, but it's a great place to start since abuse of the law is so blatent, and unlike speed traps won't be seen as a revenue generating scam.

In fairness, there can be a difference I believe in learner drivers and drivers on a provisional licence. Its only a matter of time before you know how to drive, if there is a solid definition for actually knowing how to drive. If you drive responsibly and you have read the books and taken all your lessons and had plenty of practicefor your test and you have done it right, then I believe you know how to drive as much as someone who has their full licence.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Talk to your TD, in any other country you would not be allowed on the road.

In fairness now in any other OECD country I would probably have had the opportunity to take my test and get my full licence by now.

Just to let you all know, I take driving very seriously, and I have read a very good book about it called 'Get It', The Irish Driving Test. Some good info in there and its for sale in garages for about 10 euro. A handy read. I got it recently.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

Thats not a very valid argument. People need to get to work and back and I believe they have the right to do that. You cant section off drivers on a provisional licence and keep them off the road. Remember, you once had a provisional licence too.

People have a right to get to work, but not to break the law in doing so. Nobody needs a car in the truest sense of the word. It's a convenience. How did you commute before you got a car? Why can't you move closer to work, etc etc? The "I need a car to get to _______" argument is always trotted out, and it's the weakest argument there is. The ironic thing is, as Cap'n Midnight points out, if provisional drivers got off the road and took the bus, the bus might actually be reliable enough to take!

I see where you're coming from in your arguments, but you can't escape the fact that you're a learner. All the "I'm a safe driver"'s in the world doesn't prove it so. You may in fact be good enough to be a fully licenced driver, I don't know. Some people enter college, and by the end of second year are good enough to be fully qualified. But that doesn't make them fully qualified. They still have to wait and pass the exams.

Nuttzz

we can argue this til doomsday but the fact is the waiting list for tests needs to be tackled and reduced to a month or two and then the test need to be overhauled.

/edit: just out of interest should we bother with provisional licences at all, i know people who just use them for ID :eek:

pontovic

Before I had a car I spent a fortune in time and money on trains and buses getting about. I went to DCU for four years and I was rarely on time for my nine o' clock lectures If I got the bus in. Sometimes we would carpool and my mate would drive us in. I believe I have as much right to drive into work as anyone who has a full licence, but I wont and dont do it on the motorway because thats illegal and theres alot of traffic there anyway.

As cap'n midnight pointed out, the learners could get off the road and catch a bus, but then I dont think he/she would be so quick to say that if he/she was in my position. I think that drivers on provisional licences arent always necessarily complete newbies on the road, but they are percieved like that here and I dont think its fair.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

I think that drivers on provisional licences arent always necessarily complete newbies on the road, but they are percieved like that here and I dont think its fair.

That's the system you're stuck with. Until proven otherwise, all learners are equal. There is no way to tell otherwise.

amerden

pontovic wrote:

Before I had a car I spent a fortune in time and money on trains and buses getting about. I went to DCU for four years and I was rarely on time for my nine o' clock lectures If I got the bus in. Sometimes we would carpool and my mate would drive us in. I believe I have as much right to drive into work as anyone who has a full licence, but I wont and dont do it on the motorway because thats illegal and theres alot of traffic there anyway.

And after the first year or so at UCD I presume you classed yourself QUALIFIED (at whatever profession you were studing) or did you QUALIFY AFTER the FOUR years and exams. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And is a Doctor entitled to practice after studying for a few years, or does he have to do a "TEST" to see if he is competent and SAFE to treat people. !!!!!!!!!!!

pontovic

Those are completely different things amerden and you know it. Learning to drive, like learning in university, is a continious thing and it doesnt stop the minute you get your degree or driving test. A good thing about my college course is that you were sent out to the workplace for 6 months in third year to give you a chance to practice what it would be like to work in your industry.

I didnt classify myself as qualified in first year to go out and work in the IT industry, insofar as I would need a degree, but I have my degree now, but I believe that I am qualified to drive on the roads, just not on the motorways. I am as quallified to drive on these roads as much as anyone with a full licence, with the exception being motorways, just as you were qualified to drive when you had/have your provisional licence. By the way, didnt I say that I wouldn't and dont drive in on the motorway into work ?

Capt'n Midnight

Short answer.
Check with your insurance company if you have insurance on the motorway and if they say yes get it in writing.

Slightly OT RANT
the rest of this post is about a problem caused by the govermnents over the last three decades and how it pushes people to try to justify breaking the law.

pontovic wrote:

I wasnt moaning about anything. Where did you get that from ?? I was only asking about it !! Im not saying we are victimised aswell in any way.

Like Mike said not enough Hurrumph!
This type of thread pops up so often and the attitude amongst many provisional drivers is that they seem to demand more rights then they are legally entitled to despite the fact that we have far and away the most relaxed learner laws of any developed country. It was a generic answer to a generic question not just to your specific case. Having had several near-death experiances when travelling with someone who though they could drive, I don't believe in self-certification to operate something that is one of the main preventable causes of death in this country.


Drivers have a duty to not endanger others rather than a right to drive.

pontovic wrote:

Thats not a very valid argument. People need to get to work and back and I believe they have the right to do that. You cant section off drivers on a provisional licence and keep them off the road. Remember, you once had a provisional licence too.

My counter argument is the governments have had 26 years to sort this out or enforce the law. They have done neither, and the result is that most drivers have driven illegally at some stage. Check with the Tax office as to when you can claim a refund on transort costs, they do not deem driving to work essential.

In fairness, I had no idea I was going to be driving a year before I actually started. Its quite an expensive business doing that. The backlog is huge over here. We dont have that problem in other EU countries. Would it be fari to say infact that you could get all your lessons and do your test and have your full licence in the space of 5 months in somewhere like Holland or Spain ?

In the UK the average person should be able to pass a test after 30 hours of instruction, waiting times are in the order of three weeks. There's a Korean guy who has taken a stupid number of tests ~300 to get his license ( he had problems with the reading part ) - point is he had the opportunity to do so.

If you drive responsibly and you have read the books and taken all your lessons and had plenty of practicefor your test and you have done it right, then I believe you know how to drive as much as someone who has their full licence.

You could say the same thing about AIDS and safe sex, but the stats on what actually happens speak for themselvers. The real problem is that the government is denying you the opportunity to show you can drive.
50% of people fail their test and by developed country standards it's a short uncomplicated test. And that's the ones who reckon they are ready to do the test, it excludes many people driving around on their own "learning". On that basis we can't continue to have people on L plates self-certify themselves to drive unaccompanied. When the numbers who pass the test first time are consistantly above 95% then maybe, possibly consider a rethink.

In fairness now in any other OECD country I would probably have had the opportunity to take my test and get my full licence by now.

Was it posted by someone else here ? but I've heard of someone asking to do a driving test in Oz and told come back that afternoon !

Because 400 people get killed every year on the road, we can't be complacent. Cars are killing machines. Allowing people to drive on their 2nd provisional on their own is crazy. Even worse IMHO is allowing them to drive illegaly on other provisionals and on motorways, and then they wonder why people don't obey other rules of the road. You have to instill safety when people are learning, you can do that by getting people to obey the rules and laws by simply enforcing. Bad habits are hard to get rid of and the powers that be don't seem to care about this.

About 1/10 of the population has a provisional license, the percentage of drivers without a full license is even higher. Also maybe 1 in 15 cars doesn't have valid insurance. Any sort of a clampdown will yeild results very fast. And I'll say it again a clampdown on illegal driving would be cheaper than building more roads. And it would sort out many problems for legit drivers.

Hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers.

Victor

pontovic wrote:

I believe I have as much right to drive into work as anyone who has a full licence

They have a full licence, you don't. Sorry, but the law is technical.

Illkillya

eth0_ wrote:

The majority of people only have once a week lessons. The majority of people wouldn't be likely to pass their test after only 5 months driving. especially if you're driving on your own all the time, you'd have so many bad habits.

Theres no reason to assume that pontovic is one of this "majority". I don't know anyone who took weekly lessons for 5 months, that would cost a fortune. I drove to work and around the place for 6 months, then got 2 lessons a few days before the test, then passed the test in the first go - I have no reason to believe that pontovic wouldn't be capable of this, its not particularly difficult.

You do have just as much right to drive into work as anyone else, provided you have a fully licenced driver in the car with you while you're on the first provisional, assuming you're not going on the motorway. I sympathise with people, probably like yourself, naturally good drivers with 6 months or so experience, having to suffer another few months of high insurance and being treated like a horse and cart just because of the long waiting list at the test center, even though they would easily pass the test.

My brother drove for 8 years with a full American licence, but he moved to the Netherlands a few years ago and has not been driving since then. When he moves back to Ireland this summer, he will be forced to apply for a provisional licence. With no no-claims bonus, and a provisional licence, his insurance will be very high, and he will have to put up with the L rules probably for 6+ months while he waits for his full licence. He could be a former chauffer for the president of the USA and still he would be required to find a fully licenced driver to sit in the car with him everytime he had to nip down to the shop for a pint of milk, for 6+ months. The house is miles out in the bog, there is no bus... how is he going to take his daughter to school? Because of the insanely long waiting list, I'm glad that the guards are lenient when it comes to the fully licenced driver rule. But at the same time it allows for half blind nuns struggling to see over the steering wheel and the like driving around by themselves. Last month a nun stopped my friend and I in Cork city because she had car trouble. She said it couldn't start, it was a 05 focus. My friend sat into the car, turned the key, and it started instantly. This nun drove away by herself... says it all really.

Drivers should be better prepared before they are allowed on the roads. And yes, it is ridiculous that someone should be rewarded for not being able to pass their test in the time it takes for a provisional licence to expire, by being given almost complete freedom on the road. Something like the Drivers Ed that they have in USA would be handy. They should really take a stand on the learner laws - either enforce them or change them. And if you're enforcing them, then do so with the superlong waiting lists in mind.

pontovic, there are loads of L drivers on the motorway, the guards don't seem to care... in fact when I was a learner, I got lost in the fog one night at 4am... I kind of knew the way back but a garda thought I was looking suspicious (I did a full circle around a roundabout and it looked like I was dodging the squad car) so I asked him for directions. He had a good look at my licence and my L plates, and although there were 2 equal routes to take, he told me to take the M50 But like everything, you're taking a chance, and you gotta ask yourself: 'Do I feel lucky'? Well do ya? PUNK????

Alun

Two things re: the above post. Why doesn't your brother get his driving licence in the Netherlands while he's there? The whole procedure is a little more thorough than it is here, but I'm sure he could be fasttracked through the system if he's a half way competent driver, and he'd be driving on the "right" side of the road for him too!

And why, if he knows he can't legally drive unaccompanied does he come back and live "miles out in the bog" where he knows he'll have to be reliant on a car? Doesn't make sense to me.

pontovic

Victor wrote:

They have a full licence, you don't. Sorry, but the law is technical.

Thats true but isnt it as legal for me to drive on the road as anyone else so long as I stay away from the motorways ?

I think from what I have seen here, in answering my own question about driving on the motorways, it may be as safe as houses if you know exactly what you are doing, but if you are involved in an accident you are screwed. Your insurance company will try to find ways out of paying your claim, and the cops will go to town on you.

I guess the answer is if you drive on the motorway you are taking a risk.

seamus

pontovic wrote:

Thats true but isnt it as legal for me to drive on the road as anyone else so long as I stay away from the motorways ?

Not unless you're on your second provisional.

declanoneill

You can drive unaccompanied if you're on your second. If you're on your first or third then you're supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with you.

Mike_Hunt

You can drive unaccompanied if you're on your second. If you're on your first or third then you're supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with you.

Why do the Gardai turn a blind eye to this one aswell. Although i'm glad they do because unemployment would rise sharply if it was enforced with people not being able to drive to work alone.

And just for your information I passed the driving test after 5 months driving with 8 lessons (i used a letter from work to get a cancellation). And thats 5 months on my own policy i hadnt had any named driver experience at all before that.

declanoneill

Mike_Hunt wrote:

Why do the Gardai turn a blind eye to this one aswell. Although i'm glad they do because unemployment would rise sharply if it was enforced with people not being able to drive to work alone.

And just for your information I passed the driving test after 5 months driving with 8 lessons (i used a letter from work to get a cancellation). And thats 5 months on my own policy i hadnt had any named driver experience at all before that.

I'm in a similar boat, I got 10 lessons over 2 months and then drove solo for a month and passed nay bother first time. Driving through rush hour traffic twice a day was great practice

GreeBo

seamus wrote:

then 78% of accidents do not involve (or are not caused by) people exceeding the posted speed limit.

So if I am stopped and someone crashed into me at 100mph would the statistics say that 50% of the cars involved in the accident were not exceeding the speed limit?
I think you need to list "caused by" and "involving" distinctly to have any weight.

Illkillya

Alun wrote:

Two things re: the above post. Why doesn't your brother get his driving licence in the Netherlands while he's there? The whole procedure is a little more thorough than it is here, but I'm sure he could be fasttracked through the system if he's a half way competent driver, and he'd be driving on the "right" side of the road for him too!

And why, if he knows he can't legally drive unaccompanied does he come back and live "miles out in the bog" where he knows he'll have to be reliant on a car? Doesn't make sense to me.

Alun, thank you for completely missing the point.

But you're right, it doesn't make sense for a guy to return to his home after 15 years to raise his kids in a safe place, which isn't advertising drugs and sex every corner, with more than a 40 sq. foot living space - that doesn't make sense at all. What was he thinking?! With a provisional licence his only barrier, of course he should scrap the plans completely. Such great insight Alun, thank you.

And to answer your first question, his circumstances in Amsterdam prevent this from being possible. Please realise that this was just an example to highlight a situation which is made very difficult by the provisional licence laws and long waiting list for test. I could have mentioned a different example, of a girl I know in a similar position who just moved back to Ireland after 10 years in USA and was not allowed to change her full American licence, even though most EU countries allow this afaik.

ambro25

Pontovic,

Just a quick one about something that struck me as odd: if (as you say) you alternate regularly between Dublin & France, why don't you instead go pass your FR driving test for a full FR license? It's just as valid to drive with it here as an IE license, and no bother from IE insurers about it either... The your problem's solved.

Also: there are no test-waiting lists in FR that I am aware of (unless possibly you're in Paris), but you are not allowed to drive on a FR motorway for a year until after you have passed your test and have to stick to 90 kph in any circumstances (even where limit on a good 4-lane 'A' road is 110).

cormie

declanoneill wrote:

You can drive unaccompanied if you're on your second. If you're on your first or third then you're supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with you.

Surely most people who would be driving on their 2nd provisional would have already taken the test, and thus failed since they are on their 2nd. Meaning they aren't the safest people to be let driving alone. People on their third shouldn't be allowed either since they haven't passed their test with 2 or more goes.

And time isn't really a factor as I'm sure there are many people who have been driving say a month, who have done more miles than somebody who has been driving a year or so. It depends on road time, not however long you have held your license.

declanoneill

cormie wrote:

Surely most people who would be driving on their 2nd provisional would have already taken the test, and thus failed since they are on their 2nd. Meaning they aren't the safest people to be let driving alone. People on their third shouldn't be allowed either since they haven't passed their test with 2 or more goes.

Yep, or it could be someone who applied for their 1st one at 17, forgot about it, got their second a few years later and then jumped in a car and off they went. Just doesn't make any sense at all.

cormie

Just out of interest, if you waited at the building where you go to meet the tester and just said, if anyone forgets their L plates, or has a dodgy car and is told to go home, can you test me instead? I wonder would they be able to fit you in? If you needed your car for an urgent trip to France and you didn't expect to be called for your test for about a year, this could be a good way to speed it up:D

pontovic

ambro25 wrote:

Pontovic,

Just a quick one about something that struck me as odd: if (as you say) you alternate regularly between Dublin & France, why don't you instead go pass your FR driving test for a full FR license? It's just as valid to drive with it here as an IE license, and no bother from IE insurers about it either... The your problem's solved.

Also: there are no test-waiting lists in FR that I am aware of (unless possibly you're in Paris), but you are not allowed to drive on a FR motorway for a year until after you have passed your test and have to stick to 90 kph in any circumstances (even where limit on a good 4-lane 'A' road is 110).

In France you have to attent a special driving school that is recognised by the French Government, and you have to have at least 15 lessons with them. This would cost a fortune for me as I have already done my 10 lessons over here and a pre-test. I dont spend enough time in France to do this also, I only pop over about 5 or 6 times a year and spend the summers there, but Im staying in Dublin now to find a job and the pay is better here. Taking the test in France is something I thought of but I think it would be better to take it here or in the UK because driving in France is alot different.