STT's are the only profit for solid players?

Samba

absolutely, you have to make the odd value call, my favourite is flopping straights wit 86o!

The trick with the rockets is in early position limping in hope of a raise further down the line, the downfall to this play of course is you MUST be prepared to fold AA if there are too many people and dangerous cards coupled with big betting, you have to let them go.

If you catch a set on a clean board, kaching, ching $$

AK/AKs I will raise only in very late position, easy to throw away when you miss AQ/AJ, it's limp all the way and I will happily pick up a small pots with them every time and fold if my spidy senses kick in!

Do show bluffs, make sure if you do bluff in a cash game to do it properly, you have to push for the full effect and only do it on players you know are capable of laying down top pair.

People who do commit their entire stack on two pairs are generally people who pay me off.

With the tight table image, any time you put chips in the middle players run, so you have to be cunning and do alot of check raising, trapping, min betting to induce bluffs, they know you can be pushed off top pair, let them think you have top pair...

I could go on all day!

Lafortezza

DocFarrell wrote:

I'm surprized that a moderator of all people would choose to discuss this in an such antagonistic and facile way.

I'm not a mod of poker, I'm just another Joe in this forum, and the fact that I have a smidgin of responsibility on other areas of boards doesn't mean a thing here.

Doc Farrell wrote:

Every adult 'should have the mental faculties to play poker that doesnt put their livelihood in danger' but many do not. I don't know how long you have been around the poker scene but you are being incredibly naive. In fact I don't think I have the patience to read this stuff any further. Expressing a concern about the losses that the majority of players experience and whether they can really afford it and what my role is in this when I take their money.... how is this bull****? This is the fooking REALITY that I've been talking about in the first place.
Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to teenagers caught up in the hype of some kind of new gameboy.

The fact is that most people lose money at poker. And that is a subject that currently concerns me. Perhaps a public forum isn't the place for me to express that concern but believe me, the dozen ex-players I personally know who were just as good as the best here and who will never return to the game, wouldn't consider my view 'bull****'.

Apologies if I came across a bit strong, but I don't see how the regulars of the poker forum, who are by a reasonable majority winning poker players, can have a huge amount of worry and concern for those players who play and lose to the detriment of the rest of their lives, financial and family.

In earlier posts you said you play at the lower limits, you grind out a nice profit that you're happy with. Everyone on here is the same, we all play at whatever limits we are happy with. Most of us make a profit. Who are we making a profit from? Losing players.
We aren't to know if these people have the financial means to back up their losing play, or if they have a gambling problem.
Is it not slighly hypocritical to be happy making money from these losers but at the same time be expressing concern for their well-being?

Doc Farrell wrote:

So in the past two years I havent seen good players disappear because they've lost too much, their marriages have suffered, they've lost their jobs or chance at promotion. They've had to choose between poker and the rest of their lives, literally. And because u say it's bull**** then perhaps we should'nt discuss it?

They were obviously not good players. Being a good player involves a hell of a lot more than being tight aggressive and have good card sense. You need Bankroll management, discipline, and a host of other traits to be a winning player.
If you want to discuss it feel free, I'll probably participate (in a less insulting way this time I promise ), but I can't see how you can pity these people while you log onto your favourite site looking for a table of fish.

Waylander

For someone who thinks they may be too old to post here Doc, you are acting pretty immaturely. You have decided that you know better then all the other posters and you are just going to keep repeating yourself till people start listening to your concerns. I do not think it was Luke who was being antagonistic, similarly it is not him that is lecturing other posters. I am a couple of years older then him, and I agree with him, you are speaking some BS.

jimbling

Doc and lafortezza,

first off doc, lafortezza is quite right in most of what he sais. That is there is and will always be losing players in poker... and the majority at that. You can not have winners without losers... just not possible.

secondly he is also right about his def of a good poker player.... you need a mentality to know when your over your head. Once it gets out of control you quit.. which is what they did...lol... so maybe they are good players after all. But a person should never lose so much that he cant pay bills etc. (obv this is more difficult for a pro player as they are paying bills with winnings)


and lafortezza, I think what doc is worried about is the young people coming into the game now (of which there are thousands), getting the wrong idea about poker. thinking its all winnings and fun etc.... and he is just trying to put posts out there that dispel this idea. He is not saying that you can't make money in poker... or that its never fun....

and at the end of it all.... this is all just personal opinion.

NickyOD

Samba I really don't know how you do it with that strategy but I wish you the best. Please report on how you get on.

jimbling

just to add to that..... there are so many people coming into the game now... that includes me by the way... who are led to believe they have a chance or making it in poker. This is due to online gaming, and TV... this is inevitable, and good for the people who take advantage of it. The problem for doc (and im sure others feel the same) is that people are not always that bright... and they come into the game and lose money they dont have etc....

i agree with you that we shouldnt feel sorry for them, as it is there choice, but these posts are used as a guide when starting out... so conversations like this are important for others if nothing else....

you say that all the information about gamblers addiction etc is out there..... but that doesnt stop the problem (the same as all the information on alcohol and drug addiction doesnt solve those problems)... and neither will our ranting etc... just another helper....

NickyOD

jimbling wrote:

secondly he is also right about his def of a good poker player.... you need a mentality to know when your over your head. Once it gets out of control you quit.. which is what they did...lol... so maybe they are good players after all. But a person should never lose so much that he cant pay bills etc. (obv this is more difficult for a pro player as they are paying bills with winnings)

and lafortezza, I think what doc is worried about is the young people coming into the game now (of which there are thousands), getting the wrong idea about poker. thinking its all winnings and fun etc.... and he is just trying to put posts out there that dispel this idea. He is not saying that you can't make money in poker... or that its never fun....

The facts are that 95% of poker players are losing players, and of the 5% that are winning players only a tiny fraction are exceptional enough to make serious money. Of the losers almost all with tell you they break even or win a little but a lot of them lose big.

I recommended a friend who was starting out playing poker recently to try Pokerstars, depsoit $50 and start at the $5 SnGs. Now I told him that was $50 he going to lose, that he is playing for experience and warned him not to play above the limits of his BR. (Hell I had to make 4 or 5 deposits before I got any where near static). So after a couple of month he's telling me oh I'm up to $200 now playing $10 SnGs. "Nice work!" I say. a few weeks later. Up to $500, gona play some MTTs and $20 SnGs now. "Whoah, slow down there slick, but nice work!" So then I get a text while I'm in the middle of a $50 SnG and he says "Turn on your chat there"..... "Ehhhh, It is on"...... "Why can't I chat?" "Do you have the buy in for the table?"........*silence*

This is not an isolated incident. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a player lie about how much he won I'd be a millionaire. I met one guy who says he won 45K in a tourney and lost it all in HU matches. "Ahh, man that was unlucky, sorry to hear that" Poker players hate having there egos deflated, and only the very few tell the truth about how much they lose, and what's worse is the winners exaggerate. I've even been accused of it myself and to be honest I really don't blame people who are sceptical when I tell them I won $1000 this week. My parents don't belive me. They think I'm addicted. Every second sentence out of my father's mouth is. "How are you doing for money" DAD STOP> I MAKE MONEY FROM POKER OKAY!!!

I have a friend who's wife has left him because of his addiction to poker and another who's girlfriend of 3 years couldn't handle his addiction any more. It's a real problem. Hundreds of college kids around the country are getting their hands on credit cards and maxing them out losing at poker because of a pipe dream. I was there I know all about it but luckily I got good enough to stop the rot. 2 years ago I was 9K in debt (although hald of that was an engagement ring) and now I'm in the black.

Poker really is a life destroyer for many who venture into it, so I've got no quips about Doc's rant.

Samba

you can come and watch when i have my ac set up on pp

Hectorjelly

I have a group of friends (really!) and we all took up poker at roughly the same time. Now after a few years of playing every one of my friends is a winning player both online and offline. The fact is that most people who play poker play very badly. If you are smart, determined and willing to put a lot of effort into understanding the game then its not hard to make a profit.

Doc Farrell

ok, so that was an interesting thread. I think I'm over my crisis of conscience and now I just want all ur money, especially Nialls!

I'm gonna cut back on the hours and the little limits and play higher limits when I'm feeling focused enough.

so my answer to the question at the start of the thread is yes.

saw kingdom of heaven today, the movie that is, very impressive.

also fixed my bicycle while I was deciding whether to give this game up for good. glad to report that it is running smoothly again. as is my brain. see u all at the tables.

NickyOD, very interesting contributions, I'm glad u wrote them, I'll be following ur blog and wish u well in ur game.

Lafortezza

jimbling wrote:

just to add to that..... there are so many people coming into the game now... that includes me by the way... who are led to believe they have a chance or making it in poker. This is due to online gaming, and TV... this is inevitable, and good for the people who take advantage of it. The problem for doc (and im sure others feel the same) is that people are not always that bright... and they come into the game and lose money they dont have etc....

You see, I'm not 100% sure I agree with this either. The boom in the last few years in poker has brought a huge amount of new young players into the game. But at the very low-cost end of the market.
Very few of the youngsters who watched late night poker, and the other televised events, decided to give it a go at the €500 buy-in cash tables, or the €100+ buy-in tournament level. They all started at the freerolls. The max they'd spend there is €30-€50, pretty much what every struggling student spends on a college night out in Q Bar or wherever.

What Doc Farrell is talking about (I think) are those players who actually have 'more money than sense' when it comes to sitting at the table. They think they are better than they acually are, and instead of losing €30 twice a week in the freeroll they are gambling thousands in cash games where they are too far out of their league. Obviously this can lead to financial ruin, family trouble etc etc.
But to say that these stories of woe should be told as warnings to every 18 year old who wanders into the fitz is ott in my opinion. (I may be wrong, I dunno).

Most players when they decide to step it up from freerolls to the bigger tournaments, or similarly moving up limits online, usually get a sharp shock about the difference in standard.
I'd recommend people to read Alan Schoonmakers "Psychology of Poker" if they get a chance. There's an excellent couple of chapters about your different motives for playing poker, and the destructive types of personalities that can get themselves into trouble. They are exactly the people we constantly wish for at our tables.

SODSS

I know star wars episodes that didn't go on this long-lol

Dub13

SODSS wrote:

I know star wars episodes that didn't go on this long-lol

Yea but Star Wars is crap...

Shortstack

Lots of great points on this thread. There are a lot of people who fantasise that they are winning players. Poker is addictive and when you are addicted your views on reality change.

When I first started I won a few small MTT's online and the odd sit and go in a live home game and thought I was well up, only when I went back over my deposits and buyins I found I was up no where near what I thought, although I was up.

People also can forget ( and I am gulity as sin ) that once the money is taken out of the bankroll for life expenses (ie beer, holidays etc.) it is gone and the fact you are thousands up in your career is no reason to buy in bigger than you can really afford.

As for what makes the best profit? More and more players who want to make a living are playing the STT's online. I tried and although I was making a good ROI it bores me to tears. Every now and then when funds get low I go back and grind away but i find it soul destroying. Roll on the days when I don't feel the need to cash out big MTT wins and can take the runs of no cashes!

As for live play, I treat it as a night out. I still record it in my poker accounts and am still in profit live but I would still play if losing slightly as it never costs much more than a night on the beer.

Decker

How realistic is Samba's figure of $400 for 5 hours play?

Assuming you are playing 4x6max NL tables and getting 320 hands an hour in total, it works out at 25BB/100, the general consensus (from forums such as 2+2 etc) is that you are running red hot and that this figure is not sustainable over a significant number of hands even at lower limits, do you see why?:)

Play about 50K hands and then work out your BB/100, after this number of hands you can probably have some confidence in your win rate, after all such is the nature of the great statistical game called poker. My own figure for this year over approx 40k hands is about 4PTBB/100 at 10max $0.5/$1 NL. From what I’ve read on various forums a figure of about 8PTBB/100 is absolutely CRUSHING the game at $0.5/$1 unless you are the omnipresent Mr. Jelly.

I agree with DocFarell that for a first time reader of this board it would appear to be very easy to make good money with very little effort playing poker but as Lafortezza pointed out people have a natural tendency to only report the good. They vast majority of poker players lose money and consider it entertainment.

I’ve no idea how Samba is doing it by playing weak/tight, the classic style of a bonuswhore:).

Best of luck, sorry variance.

Samba

lol, look it's an aim, be it realistic or not I have it, it's a goal that serves a purpose

It all really depends on the tables too, if they are full of fish, you can make it in one hour with a good run of cards, some days i make 0 having grinded the whole day away on these days, you think of the next.

It's an aim i have, I did not come out and say "I make $400 a day for 5 hours poker"

ocallagh

Doc Farrell wrote:

ok, so that was an interesting thread. I think I'm over my crisis of conscience and now I just want all ur money, especially Nialls!

I'm gonna cut back on the hours and the little limits and play higher limits when I'm feeling focused enough.

so my answer to the question at the start of the thread is yes.

saw kingdom of heaven today, the movie that is, very impressive.

also fixed my bicycle while I was deciding whether to give this game up for good. glad to report that it is running smoothly again. as is my brain. see u all at the tables.

NickyOD, very interesting contributions, I'm glad u wrote them, I'll be following ur blog and wish u well in ur game.

Some good points made in this post.

And Des.. In future you're gonna have to stick to one of those multiple personalities when posting on boards; or maybe you could have a different username depending on your mood! you know.. just to give us a quick heads up!

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Maybe it is for the lower buy ins but in the tough SnGs you can have huge variance. Strangely enough I'm finding my best consistency 3 tabling on 3/6 and 5/10 LM 6 max tables.

I was just thinking about this today when looking through my records, I have never had a losing WEEK playing stts, and that includes buyins up to $100 on VC and Party. Ive had losing months in all other disciplines. This might suggest Im crap at everything but stts but Ive made more in both omaha and mtts, stts are just a very stable source of income.

TacT

Thanks to Samba, I now make good money at nothing but cash tables and place well in the odd tourney every now and again too, when I can be bothered to enter.

no holdem, foldem!

I got him to coach me but sadly it cost a lot