STT's are the only profit for solid players?

SODSS

Anyone agree that stt's are the only way for a steady player to make a profit or at least break even on line?seems i cant make a profit or im up and down like a prosie's underwear.seem the only way that has a "consistant" result for me-anyone find the same?

murfie

Would you believe I was just thinking the same thing today, at the moment I am using the STT games to fund my MTT adventures for the larger profits. But what I am finding is, i should just stick to the STT's as it’s much harder to make money on the MTT's.
And cash games for me personally are a disaster!!!!

Hectorjelly

Any form of poker should lead to a profit by a good player, STTs have the least varience and a lot of dead money.

NickyOD

I have gone 10 ITMS in a row in $50 SnGs on Stars and gone 16 in a row without finishing ITM. Those were almost all bubbles in coinflip or better scenarios. Thats $800 plus juice down the tubes in a very short period considering I would always play 2 at a time. Now these were sandwiched inside 2 firsts and a couple of 2nds so the losses were minimal but to say that SnGs aren't swingy for good players is just not true. Maybe it is for the lower buy ins but in the tough SnGs you can have huge variance. Strangely enough I'm finding my best consistency 3 tabling on 3/6 and 5/10 LM 6 max tables. I think if you multitable in your ring games and move from the tables you are losing on for another you can greatly improve your cash game consistency.

Hectorjelly

You can have very bad runs at stts but the varience is still much lower than for Mtts (obviously) and for cash games at a similar buy in level. The format is so restricted than assuming you are playing against weaker opposition you will tend to do consistantly well.

Obviously if you are playing very tough sngs with a low ROI then you will experience higher swings than playing against weak cash opposition.

Doc Farrell

ok, there isnt one

however

I make a constant small profit that pays for my real tournies by limiting my gambling to the mantra 'get in cheap, get out cheap'. its dull and boring playing in the lowest no limit games, waiting for the great hands then going crazy.

i'm serious about how dull it is but if you wanna make a couple of hundred a week forget about moving up the limits, forget about playing different gears, forget about having fun or doing anything interesting. Grinding is boring but its the closest u'll get to guaranteed money.

And having said all that I'm hoping to give it all up. I can't afford to right now but it bores me to tears. go back to playing once a week when it was fun and not a pain in the ass.

hope that helps, d.

Imposter

I find the shorthand cash games (100$ buy-in usually 0.50/1$) to be the most profitable. Ok the variance is huge and it's not uncommon to drop a buy-in only to make it back on the same table. I'm considering a run at the 20$ STT's on PS soon, as the handful I have played show a good ITM % and profit. The variance would be lower too. I'd be bankrolled for 50$ STT's but i'm not sure I want to go that route without first determining if i'm a profitable player at 20$. How many games would be a good indication? I'm thinking about 100-200.

MTT's are a disaster for me, as i've been playing primarily shorthand cash games and as a result my full table game is crap. This is why a load of STT's might be a good idea too. I should have an avantage there when it gets shorthand too.

ionapaul

I've been concentrating on Stars €35+3 6-seated STTs recently, with a much improved ITM ratio compared to the 9 or 10 seater STTs on Stars or Party. Like murfie, I use my STT profits to fund my MTTs, which I greatly enjoy. Obviously I am not relying on poker for a secondary (or primary) source of income, if I was I would disregard the MTTs and focus solely on the format I am most successful with.

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

I find the shorthand cash games (100$ buy-in usually 0.50/1$) to be the most profitable. Ok the variance is huge and it's not uncommon to drop a buy-in only to make it back on the same table. I'm considering a run at the 20$ STT's on PS soon, as the handful I have played show a good ITM % and profit. The variance would be lower too. I'd be bankrolled for 50$ STT's but i'm not sure I want to go that route without first determining if i'm a profitable player at 20$. How many games would be a good indication? I'm thinking about 100-200.

MTT's are a disaster for me, as i've been playing primarily shorthand cash games and as a result my full table game is crap. This is why a load of STT's might be a good idea too. I should have an avantage there when it gets shorthand too.

You'll roll those over Imposter. The $20 SnGs on Strars are one of the the softest SnGs on the net. Just make sure you only play the 9 player one's and expect a ROI of about30% at least. I think you'd have to play about 200 before your ROI will flatten out and you'll be able to figure out your long term hourly rate.

I firmly believe shorthanded ring games are way more profitable than SnGs though especially if you're on a rakeback deal. Even at 3/6 limit I can get back around $150 for every 5,000 hands. The swings can be mentally very tough but its worth it.

Samba

I find MTTs require alot of time and I usually play in 3-4 hour sessions at the most...so MTTs i play little of these days.


$50 6 Seater STT's have been very good to me but I still feel there is better money to be made playing cash.

If you are losing money in cash play, you need to alter your game

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

What cash games are you playing Samba?

Imposter

NickyOD wrote:

You'll roll those over Imposter. The $20 SnGs on Strars are one of the the softest SnGs on the net. Just make sure you only play the 9 player one's and expect a ROI of about30% at least. I think you'd have to play about 200 before your ROI will flatten out and you'll be able to figure out your long term hourly rate.

I need to get comfortable playing multiple tables as well. I've toyed occasionally with 2 tables but i'm not comfortable doing it. Couldn't see going beyond that either unless I got a new computer as I can't get my laptop to work properly at 1600*1200 resolution and multitabling overlapping tables is annoying. This is a lot of the reason why I stick with shorthanded cash games.

careca

Since christmas I was on the worst run possible. Didn't matter if it was stt, mtt or cash games. Absolutely terrible bad beats combined with negative play (no confidence) meant I was losing badly.

However for the last two/three weeks I am on the best run I have ever had (and I don't want to tempt fate ) playing omaha cash games. Normally 1/2 pl but also .50/1 pl as sometimes this is the only omaha game on PP. There really are some bad players who will call all in bets with flush draws on a paired board, play with third nuts and so on. now of course you still have to get cards to beat them, but I just find there are a lot more bad omaha players than bad holdem players.

I hate to say it but JP was right all along

Samba

I play four tables at a time at .50/1 I also like to hit the Omaha tables, when you get a good run of cards, it's so easy to get paid online in Omaha, just don't constantly join the pre-flop gamble fest.

Doc Farrell

Samba wrote:

I find MTTs require alot of time and I usually play in 3-4 hour sessions at the most...so MTTs i play little of these days.


$50 6 Seater STT's have been very good to me but I still feel there is better money to be made playing cash.

If you are losing money in cash play, you need to alter your game

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

Samba,

if ur making an average of 400 a day why are you working in customer services on the Paddy Power site?
i'm trying to give an honest view of what its like playing the smallest no limit tables 30 hours a week. Ur telling people u make 400 on average for 5 hours. And u work for Paddy Power?

if i could make 2000 on average for 25 hours online why would i work a wage job too?

i am confused Samba, enlighten me please.

NickyOD

Doc Farrell wrote:

Samba,

if ur making an average of 400 a day why are you working in customer services on the Paddy Power site?
i'm trying to give an honest view of what its like playing the smallest no limit tables 30 hours a week. Ur telling people u make 400 on average for 5 hours. And u work for Paddy Power?

if i could make 2000 on average for 25 hours online why would i work a wage job too?

i am confused Samba, enlighten me please.

I was thinking the same thing. 80BBs an hour consistently? You're having us on aren't you?

Doc Farrell

NickyOD wrote:

I was thinking the same thing. 80BBs an hour consistently? You're having us on aren't you?

I'm gonna start posting about the reality of poker so that the new people who read here wake up to the news that only 10% of players make money and most make very little. I make half my income from poker and I have to play 30 hours online and 2-3 live tournies a week to do so.

I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that someone from Paddy Power can say that he makes 400 on average from 50cent/1 dollar omaha for 5 hours. Thats $100,000 a year for 25 hours a week. From small pot limit omaha. I'm annoyed. I spend a lot of time on those tables and average 10 dollars an hour. And i'm one of the few making money. man i'm annoyed.

Clarifications Samba, quickly.

Rodge

80 BB an hour does seem a tad excessive but not hugely so. In limit games there is no chance of this happening but in the lower limit PL or NL games I think it reasonably possible in a session where you get 4 - 5 very strong hands and get to play big pots with them. The glory of the lower limit games is that it really does kill some people to fold a hand and there are plenty of lovely people out there who like to think they are pro's coming over the top thinking they can muscle you out.

In the 25 cent NL games on Party, 80 BB's profit would be 20 dollars. I would honestly be very unhappy if I didnt turn my 25 dollars in 50 in a session and it is more likely to become 75 than 0.

NickyOD

Doc Farrell wrote:

I'm gonna start posting about the reality of poker so that the new people who read here wake up to the news that only 10% of players make money and most make very little. I make half my income from poker and I have to play 30 hours online and 2-3 live tournies a week to do so.

I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that someone from Paddy Power can say that he makes 400 on average from 50cent/1 dollar omaha for 5 hours. Thats $100,000 a year for 25 hours a week. From small pot limit omaha. I'm annoyed. I spend a lot of time on those tables and average 10 dollars an hour. And i'm one of the few making money. man i'm annoyed.

Clarifications Samba, quickly.

Well I'm gona come out with it right now and say that its BS. I have a collumn where I post my profits weekly and I have had only 2 weeks this year where I've made over a grand and had several weeks where I've lost close to $500. I've made close to 4K this year but my hourly rate is very low. I would say its closer to 5% of players make money from poker. and 90% of players that say they do lie, even those that do make money lie about how much they make. Only the very elite players are good enough to make a living from it.

A friend of mine who has helped me become a winning player (I would consider him a mentor of sorts) plays 10/20 and 15/30 limit holdem, 4 tabling. His target is a rate of 1.5BBs per 100 + rakeback which I think works out to $2.5K a week. He has long periods where he struggles, even recently he has had a 6 week spell where he has made barely any profit at all. He has had weeks where he makes 5K and weeks where he makes nothing but we are talking about 40 hours per week here, so forgive me for being suspicious of anyone who says they have an hourly rate of $80 from .5/1 NL. I would do that on a good day but long term there's no fookin way I could get close to that as an average.

Rodge

maybe you should try and get away from the grindfest that is limit poker and into the wild exciting highs of no limit cash games.

Doc Farrell

NickyOD wrote:

Well I'm gona come out with it right now and say that its BS. I have a collumn where I post my profits weekly and I have had only 2 weeks this year where I've made over a grand and had several weeks where I've lost close to $500. I've made close to 4K this year but my hourly rate is very low. I would say its closer to 5% of players make money from poker. and 90% of players that say they do lie, even those that do make money lie about how much they make. Only the very elite players are good enough to make a living from it.

A friend of mine who has helped me become a winning player (I would consider him a mentor of sorts) plays 10/20 and 15/30 limit holdem, 4 tabling. His target is a rate of 1.5BBs per 100 + rakeback which I think works out to $2.5K a week. He has long periods where he struggles, even recently he has had a 6 week spell where he has made barely any profit at all. He has had weeks where he makes 5K and weeks where he makes nothing but we are talking about 40 hours per week here, so forgive me for being suspicious of anyone who says they have an hourly rate of $80 from .5/1 NL. I would do that on a good day but long term there's no fookin way I could get close to that as an average.

Finally, an honest post.

Samba, u may have hit $400 but what were the blinds? One needs 10 grand in ur bankroll to comfortably play 1-2 no limit over the long term and 400 is a very generous win then. And at those tables u ain't playing against students and grannies anymore.

Nicky OD, the best of luck with your game. Most of the few, like us, who win at those levels take their money and aim for the bigger games. And lose it. Few stay at the low tables and continue to win there.

I'm trying to stay at the bottom tables and be happy with my little profits but its getting more and more difficult as the months go by.
I don't even want to grind it out at the next level either. And even if i quadrupled my wins it still, eventually, becomes a grind.
in all honesty I've been thinking of giving it up. maybe just playing in satellites for the big shows.

I know I've posted quite a lot over the past few months here and I'm grateful to have a place to express my opinions but I've noticed more and more that most posters only talk about their wins, not their losses. And those from various sites and tournaments talk about how much can be won not how much 95% are going to lose.

So I'm nominating myself to become the resident grouch, and to start telling the nasty truth about poker playing.

I'll start with this. In Ireland I've only come across a handful, maybe four players, that I consider to be better than very good. Most others are average, or like me, slightly better than average but nowhere near good enough to win enough money to live on it. And they've been playing for years. And a couple of them have weaknesses outside of poker that sees them throw their winnings away.

So no more self-delusion folks. Congrats if u win a tourney once a month but till u start winning them back to back, don't be getting too far out of ur pram.

best of luck, d.

jimbling

im glad someone has finally stepped up to the table....

im a beginner (about 2/3 months), but it is obvious that most people lie their asses off in these posts... and to be honest it is worse on others... much worse.

Take a look at twoplustwo forums, and every member makes about €10000 a month playing online... just plain unrealistic.

in my 2/3 months im running on a profit of €100, which in my opinion is excellent going since i am on a learning curve, and would def not consider myself above average (I would only for my periodic slip back into my fish personna, which of yet i cant gain full control over).

On top of that the main reason im in the black is because i won my first multi-table tourney on friday night, which replenished the major loses i had in the first 3 weeks of playing.


anyhow back to the point... I read posts around the place, people claiming to make an hourly rate of about $25 etc... and then a few posts later you see them asking advice on the play of a hand and its obv there rookies unable to read a play properly (and not because there asking for help, its the question they ask).


i love poker, and would love to get good enough to play professionally, but I do realise that it is highly unlikely.
So as you have said above.... I plan to improve my game enough make money, which will in turn fund entry into tournements with big prize money etc....

i dont really know im just rambling....

BigDragon

^^^^^^

Rambling allowed. You're doing fine .

SODSS

Well having looked at the replys etc and realising what a sore point it is for ppl to be lieing about what profit there earning i thought i'd give you an insight into my first 18 months of poker(playing 3yrs).
Within the first 18 months i was blowing AT LEAST 100 quid a week and for a man with a young family thats not good yet obviously i could afford it but can think of better things i could have done with it.at last i have found my game to be consistant along with my results.(in stt's only).i always seem to make the last quarter or fifth of entrants of mtt's but never quite cross the line.my bankroll is steadily bulding playing $15-20 stts and to be honest im happy with that as im making a few quid(only enough to continue to play online not to buy a bmw..lol)and for me thats all i wanted out of it was entertainment in the evening.
At the end of it anyone planning to become another gus or phil think twice about what dissposible income you have to start with and dont rob from your left to give to your right if you know what i mean.in other words leave the fantasy books and storys for the kids and enjoy playing poker and expect REALISTIC results,
Thamks for the feedback ppl

ionapaul

Maybe the overstating / lying about profits is something that will always be associated with the latest 'get rich quick' craze? The reason I mention this is that during the dotcom madness I knew a few daytraders in the States who sat in front of their PCs fulltime trying to make millions trading equities. They all claimed to be making a bundle, but all had to face reality at some stage or other (even before March 2000) and get a real job. Likewise, many of our new landlord class might have impressive paper profits, but some of them are living on credit cards and a mountain of debt.
Twoplustwo can be very entertaining when you read the many 'So, should I turn pro' threads. That said, most posters there actually give helpful advice....'NO!'

jimbling

imo..... the main reason you lost that money is because you had the money to burn. Although I would always say that I would never gamble with money I cant afford to lose, at the same time my bankroll would be pretty small. therefore i am trying not to lose it. So if i win a few stt's and am feeling confident, i might move up to the $30 stt.... etc... if my bankroll is getting low then ill drop back to $5 stts etc.... basicaly I try not to bottom out. which i have done on pokerroom only once, empire poker once... and about 3 times on paddypower (never seem to be able to win consistantly on that site)

I do believe you can learn this game without it costing a fortune... and I intend to prove it... or get as far until it does:)

I only play cash games on empirepoker... as it just seems to be the easiest.. dont really know why, but i do the best there.

i play my multi tourneys on pokerroom... ie the $5, $10 mtt... which can sometimes have big prizes... the 5k rebuy a prime example. As well as 5-30 stts.....

and im managing to stay in the black....just about:)

Samba

I finish up at PP on the 25th

Hitman Actual

Can someone in this thread please point me to a post where people have been lying about what they make playing poker. I've only been a member here for about 6 months or so, but as fair as I can see, the regular posters here are very realistic about what they can and cant do in the game. I think its fair to say that the regulars here are all profitable players, so if you're prepared to state that people are lying about what they make, then show me a specific post.

And another thing... if you're playing poker just for pure entertainment, then you wont have the mental edge to become a really good player (not saying that I'm one, by the way). It takes a lot of hard work, just like any other sport that you care to play. I think it's no fluke that players who were at the top of their field in another discipline can become very good poker players (Doyle Brunson being the obvious example).

SODSS

first of all get off your high horse lenny and read the threads properly.What i said was that people lying about there winnings was a sore point with all players.i.e we all know one or two that tend to bend the truth whether it be online or live tourneys and i didnt specifcally say boards.ie players or any players for that point alright?.secondly glad to see your such a proficent player and that you believe that plenty of practice will make you a pro as i personally believe that for 1 person that you show me that is making it as a profit making pro than i will show you 100 that are failing miserably at it.thats my point and it wasnt an attack on any members of here ar any other place just a general statement so best thing for you to do is prob read each thread twice and type once.

Daithio

Doc Farrell wrote:

Finally, an honest post.

Samba, u may have hit $400 but what were the blinds? One needs 10 grand in ur bankroll to comfortably play 1-2 no limit over the long term and 400 is a very generous win then. And at those tables u ain't playing against students and grannies anymore.

Nicky OD, the best of luck with your game. Most of the few, like us, who win at those levels take their money and aim for the bigger games. And lose it. Few stay at the low tables and continue to win there.

I'm trying to stay at the bottom tables and be happy with my little profits but its getting more and more difficult as the months go by.
I don't even want to grind it out at the next level either. And even if i quadrupled my wins it still, eventually, becomes a grind.
in all honesty I've been thinking of giving it up. maybe just playing in satellites for the big shows.

I know I've posted quite a lot over the past few months here and I'm grateful to have a place to express my opinions but I've noticed more and more that most posters only talk about their wins, not their losses. And those from various sites and tournaments talk about how much can be won not how much 95% are going to lose.

So I'm nominating myself to become the resident grouch, and to start telling the nasty truth about poker playing.

I'll start with this. In Ireland I've only come across a handful, maybe four players, that I consider to be better than very good. Most others are average, or like me, slightly better than average but nowhere near good enough to win enough money to live on it. And they've been playing for years. And a couple of them have weaknesses outside of poker that sees them throw their winnings away.

So no more self-delusion folks. Congrats if u win a tourney once a month but till u start winning them back to back, don't be getting too far out of ur pram.

best of luck, d.

I have to agree with Lenny on this one Doc. First of all, where are the posts where people are lying about the profits they are making? Of course you are only going to hear about the wins, peopled are sick of hearing bad beat stories and it's alot more interesting to hear about people winning the odd tournament than about every single time they get busted out. Anyway, the nature of poker is such that one win every so often in a mtt is plenty to keep a positive bankroll going.
Further about there being only 4 or more decent players in Ireland, I don't know where you are coming up with that statistic from. How many people's poker diaries have you seen apart from your own? I know of about 20 regular Irish players who are making more than enough to support themselves, and that is only players that I know well, I'm sure there are alot more.
It's obvious that you're getting a little disillusioned with poker but to make such a bold statement about Irish players in general is a bit rash.
Another point that you might note is that it is alot harder to make a profit in online cash games as the rake is so much bigger. If you are looking to make a profit off cash games it should be done in the casino where the rake is smaller. I don't know that much about cash games though so I won't pretend that I do.
My basic point is that there are plenty of people making an ample amount of cash off poker, and to say that there are only 4 players better than very good is certainly a bit presumptuous.

SODSS

And by the way thanks for all the other advice/examples given by other users..Food for thought about my game.Dunno but i still think(for me anyway)that stt's are a "steady" way to build a bankroll even if they are a little repetitive.But than again only probably cause my game is not aggressive enough for the cash tables and that i have been burnt too many times on them.anyway thanks again for the replies ppl and all advice gladly taken.

SODSS

k apoligies for anyone offended by my post(still can't see how) but the point i was trying to make was that some ppl bend the truth(that i know anyway) about what they win/lose.just a personal opinion of my experiences and not about anyone in here or any particular type/nationaility of player.apoligy accepted?

fixer

Samba wrote:

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

Samba pointed out his personal goals, not his actual income. Lighten up, Doc.

NickyOD

fixer wrote:

Samba pointed out his personal goals, not his actual income. Lighten up, Doc.

I don't think he was but even so the goal is unrealistic. No one can consistantly make $80 an hour at that level even 4 tabling and I'll stake my right ball on that one.

Samba

No not constantly, and yes I will re-itterate My AIM... jesus. like a bloody mob in here.


Some days it is very possibly, others impossible

I have a goal, I try to reach it... simple as that, without one i feel you are lost.

SODSS

would have to agree with you samba,anything you say in here gets jumped on and a cross examination done on it-relax ppl. :eek:

Hitman Actual

SODSS wrote:

first of all get off your high horse lenny and read the threads properly.What i said was that people lying about there winnings was a sore point with all players.i.e we all know one or two that tend to bend the truth whether it be online or live tourneys and i didnt specifcally say boards.ie players or any players for that point alright?.secondly glad to see your such a proficent player and that you believe that plenty of practice will make you a pro as i personally believe that for 1 person that you show me that is making it as a profit making pro than i will show you 100 that are failing miserably at it.thats my point and it wasnt an attack on any members of here ar any other place just a general statement so best thing for you to do is prob read each thread twice and type once.

SODSS (and jimbling), this quote annoyed me a hell of a lot:

Jimbling wrote:

... but it is obvious that most people lie their asses off in these posts...

My reply was off-topic regarding your thread, so apologies for that, but I didn't like the way it seemed to be heading. As far as I'm concerned, the regular posters here are realistic about their game.

SODSS

fair enough lenny,point taken,and i'd agree that 99% of users here are bang on and can see your point of why u were annoyed.

Doc Farrell

Samba good luck with the new job.

I stick by my claim that there are only a handful of players who are 'better than very good' around. That isnt a slur on anyone here since I don't consider myself one of them. Anyone who takes it personally needs to ask themselves why.

What I am suggesting is that, yes, I am tired of grinding in low levels, as I have repeatedly said in the thread above. I am suggesting that there is little fun or excitement to be had from even consistently winning in stt and low limit games.

I attacked no one on a personal level. What I am attacking is the constant barrage of hyped-up 'u can't lose, jump on board, be one of the winners' attitude that is taking over the poker scene at the moment. I don't like to see students, parents of young families, like the writer above,and basically anyone who can't afford it, getting caught up in this hype.

Thats not attacking winners, nor telling bad beat stories, thats just bringing some reality to a gambling game.

And believe me I intend to do it a lot more often, whether anyone here likes it or not.

Waylander

The poster above maintained that he was playing within his means. That is his decision to make not yours. I can see your point and where you are coming from, but each man makes his own choices about what he can afford. I agree with Daithio and with Lenny, I think they were both spot on in what they said. Good luck to you Samba, but sure you have been there before and you know what you are playing at.

ocallagh

Doc Farrell wrote:

I'll start with this. In Ireland I've only come across a handful, maybe four players, that I consider to be better than very good.

'better than very good' needs to be defined.. '' If Ireland only has a handful of them then you're talking world class standard.

But you don't need to be a word class player to make money at poker. There are 100s of players in Ireland who are 'better than very good' at the games they play in and believe it or not, they ARE making money! As long as you have some idea how to play, you should be able to find a game that suits you, be it on the internet, home game or the casino.

I make money out of poker. Not enough to live on, but good pocket money. I think that goes for most of the players on boards. Some make more than others, but very few claim to make a living from it! For the most part it is a hobby. I fully agree with Derek and David on this. You'll get the odd punter who claims to make 10k a week, but just ignore them. Who cares if they do or not!!

Doc Farrell wrote:

I attacked no one on a personal level. What I am attacking is the constant barrage of hyped-up 'u can't lose, jump on board, be one of the winners' attitude that is taking over the poker scene at the moment. I don't like to see students, parents of young families, like the writer above,and basically anyone who can't afford it, getting caught up in this hype.

Thats not attacking winners, nor telling bad beat stories, thats just bringing some reality to a gambling game.

And believe me I intend to do it a lot more often, whether anyone here likes it or not.

You touch on a good point here Des, but they are the people you're taking money off in the low limit games! Which side are you on? Maybe your recent lack of enthusiasm for the game is somehow linked to this moral dilemma!! now that is a toughie..

Doc Farrell

Indeed it is Niall.

maybe i'm just tired, time to move up the ranks or go back to a once a week hobby. i'm caught between making a few hundred a week and being bored out of my mind or playing with the big boys and getting burnt to a cinder.

i took up poker two years ago as research for a movie idea that I never wrote. maybe its time to put it on the back burner and go back to writing. either way i probably should take a break.

good luck to u and ur brother. u guys are almost as good as i am now. time for u to show the magic soon.

cheers, d.

Imposter

Played a few more 20$ STT's last night on PS and had a look at my stats.
After 18 games i've got a 50% ITM percentage and a 12$ average profit per game. 5 1st's, 1 2nd, 3 3rd's and 4 bubbles. I can't imagine that rate is sustainable but the games sure are soft. Need to work on that bubble stat too!

jimbling

Lenny,
i apologise for the way my post came accross, but if u look i am extremely new to boards.ie, although I have been reading them for a few weeks now....

my point was against poker forums in general...... i did phrase it pretty badly....

by the way... it looks worse when taken out of context.. i do go on to say that other forums are much worse.

my point was very general... and shouldnt have been directed at these posts.... in fact... i really meant overall.. including live players...


Some people lie about there ability to make a profit... others actually believe what they say.... .u know the people... people who believe they are winning poker players, but just have had a rough time with lots of bad beats etc.... its an illusion...



And samba, (lenny and daitho)

back to your post... docs argument was against your post saying that you made 400 in a 5 hour session on average....

'cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.'


I realise that you have the word aim in there, but come on.. how would u read it if someone else wrote it....... i myself thought exactly what doc thought... especially with the far exceed comment....

Culchie

Doc Farrell wrote:

Indeed it is Niall.

maybe i'm just tired, time to move up the ranks or go back to a once a week hobby. i'm caught between making a few hundred a week and being bored out of my mind or playing with the big boys and getting burnt to a cinder.

i took up poker two years ago as research for a movie idea that I never wrote. maybe its time to put it on the back burner and go back to writing. either way i probably should take a break.

good luck to u and ur brother. u guys are almost as good as i am now. time for u to show the magic soon.

cheers, d.

Doc, I've a feeling we're similar in thinking.

I grind every month on the $10 STT tables, move up to $15, and then $20 as the bankroll grows, then cash out at the end of the month down to by starting point, and carry out the same process again at the $10 level again.

A normal month is bringing in enough to cover most bills, which is great at the time, but you get the little voice saying "Here we go again" at the start of the each month as the process is repeated.

It's nice to ringfence money for a certain thing though ..a 'spurge pool' and I found by setting a specific goal in mind, it helps to (a) Focus the mind, and reduce boredom, and the inevitable throwing away of money and bankroll and (b) It's nice to buy something from the winnings, so that it makes it all worthwhile.
I ringfenced enough winnings over a few months to buy a New PC, Printer, Scanner, Leather Chair etc last month .... and it was a great feeling walking out of the shop with the merchandise.


I like adding to the 'splurge pool' and I hate not contributing, hence my reluctance to play MTT's of $35 or over, and in fact my reluctance to go into the live games where my chances of winning are not as good as that of playing a few STT's most nights.

I read here about alot of players here who play most nights of the week in the fitz playing €100 or €50 games and I'm saying to myself these fellahs must have some bankroll...... or is it (controversial) something a little deeper than that ... are they moving away from Return on Investment and moving into addiction territory?

Iago

I consider myself an average player, mayble slightly below average but on an upwards curve.

I started tracking my online play on 26th March, and began with $5 STT's ( small tables I know) and my current ITM is 40% with ROI at around 35% over the last two months. I've only played around 500 games though so I don't know if this is a big enough range to form an opinion on yet.

In total over the last two months I'm up just over $2K, this came predominantly from a 1st and 2nd place in two MTT's. At the moment my target is to make $50 a day from the low end STTs and play a couple of MTT's to try and increase that amount.

Last night I was unlucky to go out in 15th (paid $24 got $36)in the $2K on VC when my JJ ran into QQ on a flop of 8 9 4 rainbow, and then in the 7.5K I went out in 25th when my all-in on TT was called by A4o and he hit a straight!

Personally I thought it was a bad call, he had around 25K I went all-in for 7K and there was only 1.5K in the pot.

Anyway, generally I'm making money, but it's small money maybe $100-$200 in a week, some weeks I make less and some weeks I make nothing. Certainly not going to make a living out of it...

Waylander

Culchie and Doc, I am not trying to have a go here, but it seems to me that your theory is when anyone who goes about there poker in a different way to yours, they must be playing beyond their means. You both claim to be making a fair bit of money at the levels you play, yet you both seem to be reluctant to try to take a step up. Now you are criticizing other people who have made the step up, and who say they are making money at that level. Doc surely if you are as successful as you say at the level you are playing at, moving up a grade would be a natural progression, and with the slightly bigger stakes making the same profits may not be such a grind for you. You may even start enjoying playing again.

Dub13

Culchie wrote:

I read here about alot of players here who play most nights of the week in the fitz playing €100 or €50 games and I'm saying to myself these fellahs must have some bankroll...... or is it (controversial) something a little deeper than that ... are they moving away from Return on Investment and moving into addiction territory?

I cant speek for all hear but I am sure some will agree.I am one of these players who plays in the €100 or €50 games in the fitz,and its nothing like moving into addiction territory.I injoy playing "live" and even paying into the 100 game can work out cheaper than a night on the beer.I have finished in the money at both the 100 and the 50 Tuesday games but I would/could make more grinding it out on the net.But their is no substitute for playing live.


When you go on the beer you dont think about Return on Investment.When you play the 100 game and even when you get your arse kicked (like I did loads of times at the start) you still injoy the night and come away a better player.

Culchie

Yeh, I think I need to go and play some more live games.

I'm not criticising a different approach to playing, I suppose I'm thinking out loud that to enter these events, if one was to play within recommended bankroll management criteria, then the bankroll must be huge.

And I see the logic of the 'cheaper than a few beers' type comparison, as it is true ...... think a few visits to the Fitz are on the cards.

ionapaul

^^I'm with Dub13 on this one

At the end of the day (or insert your favourite over-used phrase here), most of us have different goals, discipline and plans when it comes to our poker playing. Personally I keep track of all my poker expenses via a great spreadsheet kindly passed along to me by one of our board regulars. At the same time, I certainly don't look upon my poker playing as an 'investment' (it doesn't make it into Quicken, let me tell you!) in the same league as any stocks I may own - poker is a hobby I can afford to play, enjoy playing and one that *currently* pays for itself. That said, at the stage of my life I'm in, I can afford to lose a couple hundred a month, if it comes to that. The minute I don't get 'the buzz' before playing or when I make it into the money, I'll stop - there are far easier ways of making money out there. I'll bet that the vast majority of players, good and bad, feel the same as I do about poker.

NickyOD

The main reason I raise an eyebrow when I read about a players amazing consistent success is because the same players never talk about horrible downswings which are part of the normal variance of poker. I read about players who quote a number that they claim to make EVERY week and I just kinow its nonsense. Even players who make 6 figures a year have weeks where they lose over 5K. I've seen big name professionals go through weeks of constant chip dumping at high stakes tables on Full Tilt. Long periods of ass-reaming bad beats, bad luck and even a few brainfarts from good players are part of poker at every level. EVERY player from Johnny Chan to Mr. Anyace will go through weeks if not months of horrible losses more than once in their poker lives. Ironically I only have faith in players who claim to be winning players when they talk about their bad runs as well as their good ones.

I don't know any Irish player who can make 6 figures a year from online poker (I know they exist, but I'm sure I could count them on one hand) and any player I know who is attempting to make a living from online poker is struggling to make an average years wage. (and that's just what they say they are making. It could be much less) The reason they do struggle even though they are winning players is because they dont use proper bankroll management techniques, don't take advantage of rakeback or use bad game selection like playing too many MTTs when they should be playing cash games to fund the buy ins OR put simply they are just not as good as they thought they were and got brought back to earth with a gut wrenching splash.

If anyone on this forum is even considering being an online pro make sure you've got no debts, a good job to fall back on, a BIG ****ing bankroll and have the more important things in life like a home already taken card of. If not I hope you are an exceptional player because you really have to be exceptional to make it.

BTW Good luck Samba. Get there!

My own goal has always been to turn pro but the light seems so far away right now its just a dot. I can make an average wage a year but that's not good enough. I need to be making 2K a week consistently over at least a period of 200,000 hands before I would even consider it. 10/20 6 handed Limit holdem is the goal. As of this week I am playing exclusively 3/6 LM 6 handed and I'm going to try and climb the ladder but its dificult to get enough hands in every week. If anyone is interested I'll post the weekly stats in my blog. 2K a week is the goal.