STT's are the only profit for solid players?

SODSS

Anyone agree that stt's are the only way for a steady player to make a profit or at least break even on line?seems i cant make a profit or im up and down like a prosie's underwear.seem the only way that has a "consistant" result for me-anyone find the same?

murfie

Would you believe I was just thinking the same thing today, at the moment I am using the STT games to fund my MTT adventures for the larger profits. But what I am finding is, i should just stick to the STT's as it’s much harder to make money on the MTT's.
And cash games for me personally are a disaster!!!!

Hectorjelly

Any form of poker should lead to a profit by a good player, STTs have the least varience and a lot of dead money.

NickyOD

I have gone 10 ITMS in a row in $50 SnGs on Stars and gone 16 in a row without finishing ITM. Those were almost all bubbles in coinflip or better scenarios. Thats $800 plus juice down the tubes in a very short period considering I would always play 2 at a time. Now these were sandwiched inside 2 firsts and a couple of 2nds so the losses were minimal but to say that SnGs aren't swingy for good players is just not true. Maybe it is for the lower buy ins but in the tough SnGs you can have huge variance. Strangely enough I'm finding my best consistency 3 tabling on 3/6 and 5/10 LM 6 max tables. I think if you multitable in your ring games and move from the tables you are losing on for another you can greatly improve your cash game consistency.

Hectorjelly

You can have very bad runs at stts but the varience is still much lower than for Mtts (obviously) and for cash games at a similar buy in level. The format is so restricted than assuming you are playing against weaker opposition you will tend to do consistantly well.

Obviously if you are playing very tough sngs with a low ROI then you will experience higher swings than playing against weak cash opposition.

Doc Farrell

ok, there isnt one

however

I make a constant small profit that pays for my real tournies by limiting my gambling to the mantra 'get in cheap, get out cheap'. its dull and boring playing in the lowest no limit games, waiting for the great hands then going crazy.

i'm serious about how dull it is but if you wanna make a couple of hundred a week forget about moving up the limits, forget about playing different gears, forget about having fun or doing anything interesting. Grinding is boring but its the closest u'll get to guaranteed money.

And having said all that I'm hoping to give it all up. I can't afford to right now but it bores me to tears. go back to playing once a week when it was fun and not a pain in the ass.

hope that helps, d.

Imposter

I find the shorthand cash games (100$ buy-in usually 0.50/1$) to be the most profitable. Ok the variance is huge and it's not uncommon to drop a buy-in only to make it back on the same table. I'm considering a run at the 20$ STT's on PS soon, as the handful I have played show a good ITM % and profit. The variance would be lower too. I'd be bankrolled for 50$ STT's but i'm not sure I want to go that route without first determining if i'm a profitable player at 20$. How many games would be a good indication? I'm thinking about 100-200.

MTT's are a disaster for me, as i've been playing primarily shorthand cash games and as a result my full table game is crap. This is why a load of STT's might be a good idea too. I should have an avantage there when it gets shorthand too.

ionapaul

I've been concentrating on Stars €35+3 6-seated STTs recently, with a much improved ITM ratio compared to the 9 or 10 seater STTs on Stars or Party. Like murfie, I use my STT profits to fund my MTTs, which I greatly enjoy. Obviously I am not relying on poker for a secondary (or primary) source of income, if I was I would disregard the MTTs and focus solely on the format I am most successful with.

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

I find the shorthand cash games (100$ buy-in usually 0.50/1$) to be the most profitable. Ok the variance is huge and it's not uncommon to drop a buy-in only to make it back on the same table. I'm considering a run at the 20$ STT's on PS soon, as the handful I have played show a good ITM % and profit. The variance would be lower too. I'd be bankrolled for 50$ STT's but i'm not sure I want to go that route without first determining if i'm a profitable player at 20$. How many games would be a good indication? I'm thinking about 100-200.

MTT's are a disaster for me, as i've been playing primarily shorthand cash games and as a result my full table game is crap. This is why a load of STT's might be a good idea too. I should have an avantage there when it gets shorthand too.

You'll roll those over Imposter. The $20 SnGs on Strars are one of the the softest SnGs on the net. Just make sure you only play the 9 player one's and expect a ROI of about30% at least. I think you'd have to play about 200 before your ROI will flatten out and you'll be able to figure out your long term hourly rate.

I firmly believe shorthanded ring games are way more profitable than SnGs though especially if you're on a rakeback deal. Even at 3/6 limit I can get back around $150 for every 5,000 hands. The swings can be mentally very tough but its worth it.

Samba

I find MTTs require alot of time and I usually play in 3-4 hour sessions at the most...so MTTs i play little of these days.


$50 6 Seater STT's have been very good to me but I still feel there is better money to be made playing cash.

If you are losing money in cash play, you need to alter your game

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

NickyOD

Samba wrote:

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

What cash games are you playing Samba?

Imposter

NickyOD wrote:

You'll roll those over Imposter. The $20 SnGs on Strars are one of the the softest SnGs on the net. Just make sure you only play the 9 player one's and expect a ROI of about30% at least. I think you'd have to play about 200 before your ROI will flatten out and you'll be able to figure out your long term hourly rate.

I need to get comfortable playing multiple tables as well. I've toyed occasionally with 2 tables but i'm not comfortable doing it. Couldn't see going beyond that either unless I got a new computer as I can't get my laptop to work properly at 1600*1200 resolution and multitabling overlapping tables is annoying. This is a lot of the reason why I stick with shorthanded cash games.

careca

Since christmas I was on the worst run possible. Didn't matter if it was stt, mtt or cash games. Absolutely terrible bad beats combined with negative play (no confidence) meant I was losing badly.

However for the last two/three weeks I am on the best run I have ever had (and I don't want to tempt fate ) playing omaha cash games. Normally 1/2 pl but also .50/1 pl as sometimes this is the only omaha game on PP. There really are some bad players who will call all in bets with flush draws on a paired board, play with third nuts and so on. now of course you still have to get cards to beat them, but I just find there are a lot more bad omaha players than bad holdem players.

I hate to say it but JP was right all along

Samba

I play four tables at a time at .50/1 I also like to hit the Omaha tables, when you get a good run of cards, it's so easy to get paid online in Omaha, just don't constantly join the pre-flop gamble fest.

Doc Farrell

Samba wrote:

I find MTTs require alot of time and I usually play in 3-4 hour sessions at the most...so MTTs i play little of these days.


$50 6 Seater STT's have been very good to me but I still feel there is better money to be made playing cash.

If you are losing money in cash play, you need to alter your game

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

Samba,

if ur making an average of 400 a day why are you working in customer services on the Paddy Power site?
i'm trying to give an honest view of what its like playing the smallest no limit tables 30 hours a week. Ur telling people u make 400 on average for 5 hours. And u work for Paddy Power?

if i could make 2000 on average for 25 hours online why would i work a wage job too?

i am confused Samba, enlighten me please.

NickyOD

Doc Farrell wrote:

Samba,

if ur making an average of 400 a day why are you working in customer services on the Paddy Power site?
i'm trying to give an honest view of what its like playing the smallest no limit tables 30 hours a week. Ur telling people u make 400 on average for 5 hours. And u work for Paddy Power?

if i could make 2000 on average for 25 hours online why would i work a wage job too?

i am confused Samba, enlighten me please.

I was thinking the same thing. 80BBs an hour consistently? You're having us on aren't you?

Doc Farrell

NickyOD wrote:

I was thinking the same thing. 80BBs an hour consistently? You're having us on aren't you?

I'm gonna start posting about the reality of poker so that the new people who read here wake up to the news that only 10% of players make money and most make very little. I make half my income from poker and I have to play 30 hours online and 2-3 live tournies a week to do so.

I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that someone from Paddy Power can say that he makes 400 on average from 50cent/1 dollar omaha for 5 hours. Thats $100,000 a year for 25 hours a week. From small pot limit omaha. I'm annoyed. I spend a lot of time on those tables and average 10 dollars an hour. And i'm one of the few making money. man i'm annoyed.

Clarifications Samba, quickly.

Rodge

80 BB an hour does seem a tad excessive but not hugely so. In limit games there is no chance of this happening but in the lower limit PL or NL games I think it reasonably possible in a session where you get 4 - 5 very strong hands and get to play big pots with them. The glory of the lower limit games is that it really does kill some people to fold a hand and there are plenty of lovely people out there who like to think they are pro's coming over the top thinking they can muscle you out.

In the 25 cent NL games on Party, 80 BB's profit would be 20 dollars. I would honestly be very unhappy if I didnt turn my 25 dollars in 50 in a session and it is more likely to become 75 than 0.

NickyOD

Doc Farrell wrote:

I'm gonna start posting about the reality of poker so that the new people who read here wake up to the news that only 10% of players make money and most make very little. I make half my income from poker and I have to play 30 hours online and 2-3 live tournies a week to do so.

I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that someone from Paddy Power can say that he makes 400 on average from 50cent/1 dollar omaha for 5 hours. Thats $100,000 a year for 25 hours a week. From small pot limit omaha. I'm annoyed. I spend a lot of time on those tables and average 10 dollars an hour. And i'm one of the few making money. man i'm annoyed.

Clarifications Samba, quickly.

Well I'm gona come out with it right now and say that its BS. I have a collumn where I post my profits weekly and I have had only 2 weeks this year where I've made over a grand and had several weeks where I've lost close to $500. I've made close to 4K this year but my hourly rate is very low. I would say its closer to 5% of players make money from poker. and 90% of players that say they do lie, even those that do make money lie about how much they make. Only the very elite players are good enough to make a living from it.

A friend of mine who has helped me become a winning player (I would consider him a mentor of sorts) plays 10/20 and 15/30 limit holdem, 4 tabling. His target is a rate of 1.5BBs per 100 + rakeback which I think works out to $2.5K a week. He has long periods where he struggles, even recently he has had a 6 week spell where he has made barely any profit at all. He has had weeks where he makes 5K and weeks where he makes nothing but we are talking about 40 hours per week here, so forgive me for being suspicious of anyone who says they have an hourly rate of $80 from .5/1 NL. I would do that on a good day but long term there's no fookin way I could get close to that as an average.

Rodge

maybe you should try and get away from the grindfest that is limit poker and into the wild exciting highs of no limit cash games.

Doc Farrell

NickyOD wrote:

Well I'm gona come out with it right now and say that its BS. I have a collumn where I post my profits weekly and I have had only 2 weeks this year where I've made over a grand and had several weeks where I've lost close to $500. I've made close to 4K this year but my hourly rate is very low. I would say its closer to 5% of players make money from poker. and 90% of players that say they do lie, even those that do make money lie about how much they make. Only the very elite players are good enough to make a living from it.

A friend of mine who has helped me become a winning player (I would consider him a mentor of sorts) plays 10/20 and 15/30 limit holdem, 4 tabling. His target is a rate of 1.5BBs per 100 + rakeback which I think works out to $2.5K a week. He has long periods where he struggles, even recently he has had a 6 week spell where he has made barely any profit at all. He has had weeks where he makes 5K and weeks where he makes nothing but we are talking about 40 hours per week here, so forgive me for being suspicious of anyone who says they have an hourly rate of $80 from .5/1 NL. I would do that on a good day but long term there's no fookin way I could get close to that as an average.

Finally, an honest post.

Samba, u may have hit $400 but what were the blinds? One needs 10 grand in ur bankroll to comfortably play 1-2 no limit over the long term and 400 is a very generous win then. And at those tables u ain't playing against students and grannies anymore.

Nicky OD, the best of luck with your game. Most of the few, like us, who win at those levels take their money and aim for the bigger games. And lose it. Few stay at the low tables and continue to win there.

I'm trying to stay at the bottom tables and be happy with my little profits but its getting more and more difficult as the months go by.
I don't even want to grind it out at the next level either. And even if i quadrupled my wins it still, eventually, becomes a grind.
in all honesty I've been thinking of giving it up. maybe just playing in satellites for the big shows.

I know I've posted quite a lot over the past few months here and I'm grateful to have a place to express my opinions but I've noticed more and more that most posters only talk about their wins, not their losses. And those from various sites and tournaments talk about how much can be won not how much 95% are going to lose.

So I'm nominating myself to become the resident grouch, and to start telling the nasty truth about poker playing.

I'll start with this. In Ireland I've only come across a handful, maybe four players, that I consider to be better than very good. Most others are average, or like me, slightly better than average but nowhere near good enough to win enough money to live on it. And they've been playing for years. And a couple of them have weaknesses outside of poker that sees them throw their winnings away.

So no more self-delusion folks. Congrats if u win a tourney once a month but till u start winning them back to back, don't be getting too far out of ur pram.

best of luck, d.

jimbling

im glad someone has finally stepped up to the table....

im a beginner (about 2/3 months), but it is obvious that most people lie their asses off in these posts... and to be honest it is worse on others... much worse.

Take a look at twoplustwo forums, and every member makes about €10000 a month playing online... just plain unrealistic.

in my 2/3 months im running on a profit of €100, which in my opinion is excellent going since i am on a learning curve, and would def not consider myself above average (I would only for my periodic slip back into my fish personna, which of yet i cant gain full control over).

On top of that the main reason im in the black is because i won my first multi-table tourney on friday night, which replenished the major loses i had in the first 3 weeks of playing.


anyhow back to the point... I read posts around the place, people claiming to make an hourly rate of about $25 etc... and then a few posts later you see them asking advice on the play of a hand and its obv there rookies unable to read a play properly (and not because there asking for help, its the question they ask).


i love poker, and would love to get good enough to play professionally, but I do realise that it is highly unlikely.
So as you have said above.... I plan to improve my game enough make money, which will in turn fund entry into tournements with big prize money etc....

i dont really know im just rambling....

BigDragon

^^^^^^

Rambling allowed. You're doing fine .

SODSS

Well having looked at the replys etc and realising what a sore point it is for ppl to be lieing about what profit there earning i thought i'd give you an insight into my first 18 months of poker(playing 3yrs).
Within the first 18 months i was blowing AT LEAST 100 quid a week and for a man with a young family thats not good yet obviously i could afford it but can think of better things i could have done with it.at last i have found my game to be consistant along with my results.(in stt's only).i always seem to make the last quarter or fifth of entrants of mtt's but never quite cross the line.my bankroll is steadily bulding playing $15-20 stts and to be honest im happy with that as im making a few quid(only enough to continue to play online not to buy a bmw..lol)and for me thats all i wanted out of it was entertainment in the evening.
At the end of it anyone planning to become another gus or phil think twice about what dissposible income you have to start with and dont rob from your left to give to your right if you know what i mean.in other words leave the fantasy books and storys for the kids and enjoy playing poker and expect REALISTIC results,
Thamks for the feedback ppl

ionapaul

Maybe the overstating / lying about profits is something that will always be associated with the latest 'get rich quick' craze? The reason I mention this is that during the dotcom madness I knew a few daytraders in the States who sat in front of their PCs fulltime trying to make millions trading equities. They all claimed to be making a bundle, but all had to face reality at some stage or other (even before March 2000) and get a real job. Likewise, many of our new landlord class might have impressive paper profits, but some of them are living on credit cards and a mountain of debt.
Twoplustwo can be very entertaining when you read the many 'So, should I turn pro' threads. That said, most posters there actually give helpful advice....'NO!'

jimbling

imo..... the main reason you lost that money is because you had the money to burn. Although I would always say that I would never gamble with money I cant afford to lose, at the same time my bankroll would be pretty small. therefore i am trying not to lose it. So if i win a few stt's and am feeling confident, i might move up to the $30 stt.... etc... if my bankroll is getting low then ill drop back to $5 stts etc.... basicaly I try not to bottom out. which i have done on pokerroom only once, empire poker once... and about 3 times on paddypower (never seem to be able to win consistantly on that site)

I do believe you can learn this game without it costing a fortune... and I intend to prove it... or get as far until it does:)

I only play cash games on empirepoker... as it just seems to be the easiest.. dont really know why, but i do the best there.

i play my multi tourneys on pokerroom... ie the $5, $10 mtt... which can sometimes have big prizes... the 5k rebuy a prime example. As well as 5-30 stts.....

and im managing to stay in the black....just about:)

Samba

I finish up at PP on the 25th

Hitman Actual

Can someone in this thread please point me to a post where people have been lying about what they make playing poker. I've only been a member here for about 6 months or so, but as fair as I can see, the regular posters here are very realistic about what they can and cant do in the game. I think its fair to say that the regulars here are all profitable players, so if you're prepared to state that people are lying about what they make, then show me a specific post.

And another thing... if you're playing poker just for pure entertainment, then you wont have the mental edge to become a really good player (not saying that I'm one, by the way). It takes a lot of hard work, just like any other sport that you care to play. I think it's no fluke that players who were at the top of their field in another discipline can become very good poker players (Doyle Brunson being the obvious example).

SODSS

first of all get off your high horse lenny and read the threads properly.What i said was that people lying about there winnings was a sore point with all players.i.e we all know one or two that tend to bend the truth whether it be online or live tourneys and i didnt specifcally say boards.ie players or any players for that point alright?.secondly glad to see your such a proficent player and that you believe that plenty of practice will make you a pro as i personally believe that for 1 person that you show me that is making it as a profit making pro than i will show you 100 that are failing miserably at it.thats my point and it wasnt an attack on any members of here ar any other place just a general statement so best thing for you to do is prob read each thread twice and type once.

Daithio

Doc Farrell wrote:

Finally, an honest post.

Samba, u may have hit $400 but what were the blinds? One needs 10 grand in ur bankroll to comfortably play 1-2 no limit over the long term and 400 is a very generous win then. And at those tables u ain't playing against students and grannies anymore.

Nicky OD, the best of luck with your game. Most of the few, like us, who win at those levels take their money and aim for the bigger games. And lose it. Few stay at the low tables and continue to win there.

I'm trying to stay at the bottom tables and be happy with my little profits but its getting more and more difficult as the months go by.
I don't even want to grind it out at the next level either. And even if i quadrupled my wins it still, eventually, becomes a grind.
in all honesty I've been thinking of giving it up. maybe just playing in satellites for the big shows.

I know I've posted quite a lot over the past few months here and I'm grateful to have a place to express my opinions but I've noticed more and more that most posters only talk about their wins, not their losses. And those from various sites and tournaments talk about how much can be won not how much 95% are going to lose.

So I'm nominating myself to become the resident grouch, and to start telling the nasty truth about poker playing.

I'll start with this. In Ireland I've only come across a handful, maybe four players, that I consider to be better than very good. Most others are average, or like me, slightly better than average but nowhere near good enough to win enough money to live on it. And they've been playing for years. And a couple of them have weaknesses outside of poker that sees them throw their winnings away.

So no more self-delusion folks. Congrats if u win a tourney once a month but till u start winning them back to back, don't be getting too far out of ur pram.

best of luck, d.

I have to agree with Lenny on this one Doc. First of all, where are the posts where people are lying about the profits they are making? Of course you are only going to hear about the wins, peopled are sick of hearing bad beat stories and it's alot more interesting to hear about people winning the odd tournament than about every single time they get busted out. Anyway, the nature of poker is such that one win every so often in a mtt is plenty to keep a positive bankroll going.
Further about there being only 4 or more decent players in Ireland, I don't know where you are coming up with that statistic from. How many people's poker diaries have you seen apart from your own? I know of about 20 regular Irish players who are making more than enough to support themselves, and that is only players that I know well, I'm sure there are alot more.
It's obvious that you're getting a little disillusioned with poker but to make such a bold statement about Irish players in general is a bit rash.
Another point that you might note is that it is alot harder to make a profit in online cash games as the rake is so much bigger. If you are looking to make a profit off cash games it should be done in the casino where the rake is smaller. I don't know that much about cash games though so I won't pretend that I do.
My basic point is that there are plenty of people making an ample amount of cash off poker, and to say that there are only 4 players better than very good is certainly a bit presumptuous.

SODSS

And by the way thanks for all the other advice/examples given by other users..Food for thought about my game.Dunno but i still think(for me anyway)that stt's are a "steady" way to build a bankroll even if they are a little repetitive.But than again only probably cause my game is not aggressive enough for the cash tables and that i have been burnt too many times on them.anyway thanks again for the replies ppl and all advice gladly taken.