STT's are the only profit for solid players?

SODSS

k apoligies for anyone offended by my post(still can't see how) but the point i was trying to make was that some ppl bend the truth(that i know anyway) about what they win/lose.just a personal opinion of my experiences and not about anyone in here or any particular type/nationaility of player.apoligy accepted?

fixer

Samba wrote:

cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.

Samba pointed out his personal goals, not his actual income. Lighten up, Doc.

NickyOD

fixer wrote:

Samba pointed out his personal goals, not his actual income. Lighten up, Doc.

I don't think he was but even so the goal is unrealistic. No one can consistantly make $80 an hour at that level even 4 tabling and I'll stake my right ball on that one.

Samba

No not constantly, and yes I will re-itterate My AIM... jesus. like a bloody mob in here.


Some days it is very possibly, others impossible

I have a goal, I try to reach it... simple as that, without one i feel you are lost.

SODSS

would have to agree with you samba,anything you say in here gets jumped on and a cross examination done on it-relax ppl. :eek:

Hitman Actual

SODSS wrote:

first of all get off your high horse lenny and read the threads properly.What i said was that people lying about there winnings was a sore point with all players.i.e we all know one or two that tend to bend the truth whether it be online or live tourneys and i didnt specifcally say boards.ie players or any players for that point alright?.secondly glad to see your such a proficent player and that you believe that plenty of practice will make you a pro as i personally believe that for 1 person that you show me that is making it as a profit making pro than i will show you 100 that are failing miserably at it.thats my point and it wasnt an attack on any members of here ar any other place just a general statement so best thing for you to do is prob read each thread twice and type once.

SODSS (and jimbling), this quote annoyed me a hell of a lot:

Jimbling wrote:

... but it is obvious that most people lie their asses off in these posts...

My reply was off-topic regarding your thread, so apologies for that, but I didn't like the way it seemed to be heading. As far as I'm concerned, the regular posters here are realistic about their game.

SODSS

fair enough lenny,point taken,and i'd agree that 99% of users here are bang on and can see your point of why u were annoyed.

Doc Farrell

Samba good luck with the new job.

I stick by my claim that there are only a handful of players who are 'better than very good' around. That isnt a slur on anyone here since I don't consider myself one of them. Anyone who takes it personally needs to ask themselves why.

What I am suggesting is that, yes, I am tired of grinding in low levels, as I have repeatedly said in the thread above. I am suggesting that there is little fun or excitement to be had from even consistently winning in stt and low limit games.

I attacked no one on a personal level. What I am attacking is the constant barrage of hyped-up 'u can't lose, jump on board, be one of the winners' attitude that is taking over the poker scene at the moment. I don't like to see students, parents of young families, like the writer above,and basically anyone who can't afford it, getting caught up in this hype.

Thats not attacking winners, nor telling bad beat stories, thats just bringing some reality to a gambling game.

And believe me I intend to do it a lot more often, whether anyone here likes it or not.

Waylander

The poster above maintained that he was playing within his means. That is his decision to make not yours. I can see your point and where you are coming from, but each man makes his own choices about what he can afford. I agree with Daithio and with Lenny, I think they were both spot on in what they said. Good luck to you Samba, but sure you have been there before and you know what you are playing at.

ocallagh

Doc Farrell wrote:

I'll start with this. In Ireland I've only come across a handful, maybe four players, that I consider to be better than very good.

'better than very good' needs to be defined.. '' If Ireland only has a handful of them then you're talking world class standard.

But you don't need to be a word class player to make money at poker. There are 100s of players in Ireland who are 'better than very good' at the games they play in and believe it or not, they ARE making money! As long as you have some idea how to play, you should be able to find a game that suits you, be it on the internet, home game or the casino.

I make money out of poker. Not enough to live on, but good pocket money. I think that goes for most of the players on boards. Some make more than others, but very few claim to make a living from it! For the most part it is a hobby. I fully agree with Derek and David on this. You'll get the odd punter who claims to make 10k a week, but just ignore them. Who cares if they do or not!!

Doc Farrell wrote:

I attacked no one on a personal level. What I am attacking is the constant barrage of hyped-up 'u can't lose, jump on board, be one of the winners' attitude that is taking over the poker scene at the moment. I don't like to see students, parents of young families, like the writer above,and basically anyone who can't afford it, getting caught up in this hype.

Thats not attacking winners, nor telling bad beat stories, thats just bringing some reality to a gambling game.

And believe me I intend to do it a lot more often, whether anyone here likes it or not.

You touch on a good point here Des, but they are the people you're taking money off in the low limit games! Which side are you on? Maybe your recent lack of enthusiasm for the game is somehow linked to this moral dilemma!! now that is a toughie..

Doc Farrell

Indeed it is Niall.

maybe i'm just tired, time to move up the ranks or go back to a once a week hobby. i'm caught between making a few hundred a week and being bored out of my mind or playing with the big boys and getting burnt to a cinder.

i took up poker two years ago as research for a movie idea that I never wrote. maybe its time to put it on the back burner and go back to writing. either way i probably should take a break.

good luck to u and ur brother. u guys are almost as good as i am now. time for u to show the magic soon.

cheers, d.

Imposter

Played a few more 20$ STT's last night on PS and had a look at my stats.
After 18 games i've got a 50% ITM percentage and a 12$ average profit per game. 5 1st's, 1 2nd, 3 3rd's and 4 bubbles. I can't imagine that rate is sustainable but the games sure are soft. Need to work on that bubble stat too!

jimbling

Lenny,
i apologise for the way my post came accross, but if u look i am extremely new to boards.ie, although I have been reading them for a few weeks now....

my point was against poker forums in general...... i did phrase it pretty badly....

by the way... it looks worse when taken out of context.. i do go on to say that other forums are much worse.

my point was very general... and shouldnt have been directed at these posts.... in fact... i really meant overall.. including live players...


Some people lie about there ability to make a profit... others actually believe what they say.... .u know the people... people who believe they are winning poker players, but just have had a rough time with lots of bad beats etc.... its an illusion...



And samba, (lenny and daitho)

back to your post... docs argument was against your post saying that you made 400 in a 5 hour session on average....

'cash play is the most profitable area for me on average i aim to take $400 a day for about 5 hours play some days I fall short others I far exceed that figure.'


I realise that you have the word aim in there, but come on.. how would u read it if someone else wrote it....... i myself thought exactly what doc thought... especially with the far exceed comment....

Culchie

Doc Farrell wrote:

Indeed it is Niall.

maybe i'm just tired, time to move up the ranks or go back to a once a week hobby. i'm caught between making a few hundred a week and being bored out of my mind or playing with the big boys and getting burnt to a cinder.

i took up poker two years ago as research for a movie idea that I never wrote. maybe its time to put it on the back burner and go back to writing. either way i probably should take a break.

good luck to u and ur brother. u guys are almost as good as i am now. time for u to show the magic soon.

cheers, d.

Doc, I've a feeling we're similar in thinking.

I grind every month on the $10 STT tables, move up to $15, and then $20 as the bankroll grows, then cash out at the end of the month down to by starting point, and carry out the same process again at the $10 level again.

A normal month is bringing in enough to cover most bills, which is great at the time, but you get the little voice saying "Here we go again" at the start of the each month as the process is repeated.

It's nice to ringfence money for a certain thing though ..a 'spurge pool' and I found by setting a specific goal in mind, it helps to (a) Focus the mind, and reduce boredom, and the inevitable throwing away of money and bankroll and (b) It's nice to buy something from the winnings, so that it makes it all worthwhile.
I ringfenced enough winnings over a few months to buy a New PC, Printer, Scanner, Leather Chair etc last month .... and it was a great feeling walking out of the shop with the merchandise.


I like adding to the 'splurge pool' and I hate not contributing, hence my reluctance to play MTT's of $35 or over, and in fact my reluctance to go into the live games where my chances of winning are not as good as that of playing a few STT's most nights.

I read here about alot of players here who play most nights of the week in the fitz playing €100 or €50 games and I'm saying to myself these fellahs must have some bankroll...... or is it (controversial) something a little deeper than that ... are they moving away from Return on Investment and moving into addiction territory?

Iago

I consider myself an average player, mayble slightly below average but on an upwards curve.

I started tracking my online play on 26th March, and began with $5 STT's ( small tables I know) and my current ITM is 40% with ROI at around 35% over the last two months. I've only played around 500 games though so I don't know if this is a big enough range to form an opinion on yet.

In total over the last two months I'm up just over $2K, this came predominantly from a 1st and 2nd place in two MTT's. At the moment my target is to make $50 a day from the low end STTs and play a couple of MTT's to try and increase that amount.

Last night I was unlucky to go out in 15th (paid $24 got $36)in the $2K on VC when my JJ ran into QQ on a flop of 8 9 4 rainbow, and then in the 7.5K I went out in 25th when my all-in on TT was called by A4o and he hit a straight!

Personally I thought it was a bad call, he had around 25K I went all-in for 7K and there was only 1.5K in the pot.

Anyway, generally I'm making money, but it's small money maybe $100-$200 in a week, some weeks I make less and some weeks I make nothing. Certainly not going to make a living out of it...

Waylander

Culchie and Doc, I am not trying to have a go here, but it seems to me that your theory is when anyone who goes about there poker in a different way to yours, they must be playing beyond their means. You both claim to be making a fair bit of money at the levels you play, yet you both seem to be reluctant to try to take a step up. Now you are criticizing other people who have made the step up, and who say they are making money at that level. Doc surely if you are as successful as you say at the level you are playing at, moving up a grade would be a natural progression, and with the slightly bigger stakes making the same profits may not be such a grind for you. You may even start enjoying playing again.

Dub13

Culchie wrote:

I read here about alot of players here who play most nights of the week in the fitz playing €100 or €50 games and I'm saying to myself these fellahs must have some bankroll...... or is it (controversial) something a little deeper than that ... are they moving away from Return on Investment and moving into addiction territory?

I cant speek for all hear but I am sure some will agree.I am one of these players who plays in the €100 or €50 games in the fitz,and its nothing like moving into addiction territory.I injoy playing "live" and even paying into the 100 game can work out cheaper than a night on the beer.I have finished in the money at both the 100 and the 50 Tuesday games but I would/could make more grinding it out on the net.But their is no substitute for playing live.


When you go on the beer you dont think about Return on Investment.When you play the 100 game and even when you get your arse kicked (like I did loads of times at the start) you still injoy the night and come away a better player.

Culchie

Yeh, I think I need to go and play some more live games.

I'm not criticising a different approach to playing, I suppose I'm thinking out loud that to enter these events, if one was to play within recommended bankroll management criteria, then the bankroll must be huge.

And I see the logic of the 'cheaper than a few beers' type comparison, as it is true ...... think a few visits to the Fitz are on the cards.

ionapaul

^^I'm with Dub13 on this one

At the end of the day (or insert your favourite over-used phrase here), most of us have different goals, discipline and plans when it comes to our poker playing. Personally I keep track of all my poker expenses via a great spreadsheet kindly passed along to me by one of our board regulars. At the same time, I certainly don't look upon my poker playing as an 'investment' (it doesn't make it into Quicken, let me tell you!) in the same league as any stocks I may own - poker is a hobby I can afford to play, enjoy playing and one that *currently* pays for itself. That said, at the stage of my life I'm in, I can afford to lose a couple hundred a month, if it comes to that. The minute I don't get 'the buzz' before playing or when I make it into the money, I'll stop - there are far easier ways of making money out there. I'll bet that the vast majority of players, good and bad, feel the same as I do about poker.

NickyOD

The main reason I raise an eyebrow when I read about a players amazing consistent success is because the same players never talk about horrible downswings which are part of the normal variance of poker. I read about players who quote a number that they claim to make EVERY week and I just kinow its nonsense. Even players who make 6 figures a year have weeks where they lose over 5K. I've seen big name professionals go through weeks of constant chip dumping at high stakes tables on Full Tilt. Long periods of ass-reaming bad beats, bad luck and even a few brainfarts from good players are part of poker at every level. EVERY player from Johnny Chan to Mr. Anyace will go through weeks if not months of horrible losses more than once in their poker lives. Ironically I only have faith in players who claim to be winning players when they talk about their bad runs as well as their good ones.

I don't know any Irish player who can make 6 figures a year from online poker (I know they exist, but I'm sure I could count them on one hand) and any player I know who is attempting to make a living from online poker is struggling to make an average years wage. (and that's just what they say they are making. It could be much less) The reason they do struggle even though they are winning players is because they dont use proper bankroll management techniques, don't take advantage of rakeback or use bad game selection like playing too many MTTs when they should be playing cash games to fund the buy ins OR put simply they are just not as good as they thought they were and got brought back to earth with a gut wrenching splash.

If anyone on this forum is even considering being an online pro make sure you've got no debts, a good job to fall back on, a BIG ****ing bankroll and have the more important things in life like a home already taken card of. If not I hope you are an exceptional player because you really have to be exceptional to make it.

BTW Good luck Samba. Get there!

My own goal has always been to turn pro but the light seems so far away right now its just a dot. I can make an average wage a year but that's not good enough. I need to be making 2K a week consistently over at least a period of 200,000 hands before I would even consider it. 10/20 6 handed Limit holdem is the goal. As of this week I am playing exclusively 3/6 LM 6 handed and I'm going to try and climb the ladder but its dificult to get enough hands in every week. If anyone is interested I'll post the weekly stats in my blog. 2K a week is the goal.

Waylander

Nicky I am sure that when most players give you a weekly earnings figure, it is an average figure they are giving you, otherwise it means nothing. Sp while they are not telling you about the down swings, which noone is disputing, they are also not telling you of the weeks a big tournie and cleared alot more then their weekly average.

Culchie

I think this is an interesting topic, different people have different views on things.

It appears to me that players apply good bankroll management principles on-line, (I've seen Dub13 also post about grinding out throughout the month and then cashing out) as well as myself and Doc.

But then, it seems that somehow the entry fee to a live tourney is seen as 'cheaper than a night out' or whatever..... so that is what I find interesting..... the application of the bankroll management is not applied equally accross the internet and live game environments.

Hitman Actual

jimbling wrote:

Lenny,
i apologise for the way my post came accross, but if u look i am extremely new to boards.ie, although I have been reading them for a few weeks now....

Nah, dont sweat it, it was just turning into a contentious thread anyway. Welcome to the forum by the way!

Doc, like a few lads said, I think your enthusiasm is just waning a bit at the moment. I reckon this is totally normal; every year I go through a couple of months where I have no interest in playing, but all it takes is a good streak or a decent win to start enjoying it again. The problem I find with stopping for too long is that you lose a lot of sharpness, which can take a while to get back.

Regarding bankroll management, I've been lucky, both this year and last, to pick up a decent early result, and this basically pays for my tournies for the year. As much as I possibly can, I try to keep poker winnings for poker and nothing else. At the moment I'm only playing live tournies, so you do need a decent fund to get through the bleak spells. My money could definately be better spent online in STTs.

My aim for the year is simple... I want a 50% return in live tournaments. Hector stated a while back that he would only expect 60/70% return from live tournies, so I have to be a bit more realistic! The problem is, I expect to only play about 120 live tournaments in the year, and I'm not sure whether that's a decent sample size for my results to have any meaning (any views on that?).

One last point: getting back-to-back first spots in live tournaments is unrealistic, especially in the structure-tight games in the Fitz. I'm sure it's against the odds even for the top-class pros.

ionapaul

'Back-to-Back' Derek Screw Layne Flack, the nickname is yours for the taking!

NickyOD

lenny_leonard wrote:

every year I go through a couple of months where I have no interest in playing, but all it takes is a good streak or a decent win to start enjoying it again.

In order to keep my enthusiasm from waining I usually take about 3 days off every couple of weeks to allow my anus to shrink back to normal size, because of the excrutiating bad beats.

Lafortezza

Doc Farrell wrote:

What I am suggesting is that, yes, I am tired of grinding in low levels, as I have repeatedly said in the thread above. I am suggesting that there is little fun or excitement to be had from even consistently winning in stt and low limit games.

Thats not attacking winners, nor telling bad beat stories, thats just bringing some reality to a gambling game.

And believe me I intend to do it a lot more often, whether anyone here likes it or not.

I don't understand what you are trying to do here. People usually tell the good stuff that happens to them, play down the bad stuff, it's just ego and probably because hearing how one of your mates won a couple of hundred quid in the Fitz last night is much more fun compared to listening how he bluffed into the BB's Aces to be knocked out 16th.

I don't think the poker forum on boards.ie is full of people *just* telling each other about the plus side of making money from poker. There's plenty of post about bad beats, poor decisions, "I can't believe he called with that", etc etc.

One thing that I think is very true about the poker forum here is that the majority of the people who post here are of a much higher standard than vast number of players over the internet. If you read the 2+2 forums you read about people who are far far more intelligent poker-wise and analyse the game in incredible detail. It's like the top 10% of poker players meeting up for a chat. The other 90% aren't good enough.
This poker forum is getting there, there are way more winning players than losing players and the content reflects that.

DocFarrell wrote:

What I am attacking is the constant barrage of hyped-up 'u can't lose, jump on board, be one of the winners' attitude that is taking over the poker scene at the moment. I don't like to see students, parents of young families, like the writer above,and basically anyone who can't afford it, getting caught up in this hype.

This is bullshít. Ever adult should have the mental faculties and common sense to play poker/bet the horses/enter the lottery/spend their money in a way that doesn't put their livelyhood in danger.
There is a huge amount of money to be made playing poker, some people are able to do it, some people aren't. If you aren't then you should be able to lose only the money you can afford to lose.
There's enough information out there about gambling addiction, and more inportantly about how to play winning poker for nobody to ever get themselves into financial diffiulty.

Samba

My style of cash play is extremely conservative and I believe this style saves me many a bad beat. If in doubt....fold.


I don't go raising every time with AK/AQ/AJ and then give out because A3 took me out.

I limp in and save myself alot of pain I have seen countless stacks lost on AK..... there is no need to play AK so hurridly in a cash game, sit back relax.

I play a very simple Trips upwards game, anything less and my stack is staying right by me

Believe me though, it is no stroll in the park, you have to be on your toes and alert in every pot you enter.

Krusty_Clown

Samba wrote:

My style of cash play is extremely conservative and I believe this style saves me many a bad beat. If in doubt....fold.
I play a very simple Trips upwards game, anything less and my stack is staying right by me.

Samba: Do you find that you end-up with an uber-tight table image? i.e. people folding as soon as you make any kind of raise? How do you avoid this? Do you vary your game and making a few loose-calls which you make sure get shown?

Davey Devil

It's not an image, there's more blood in a stone than Samba.

Doc Farrell

lafortezza wrote:

This is bullshít. Ever adult should have the mental faculties and common sense to play poker/bet the horses/enter the lottery/spend their money in a way that doesn't put their livelyhood in danger.
There is a huge amount of money to be made playing poker, some people are able to do it, some people aren't. If you aren't then you should be able to lose only the money you can afford to lose.
There's enough information out there about gambling addiction, and more inportantly about how to play winning poker for nobody to ever get themselves into financial diffiulty.

Thats nice. So, because the information is out there then it shouldnt happen. How lovely. So I don't see the same players make the same bad plays in live games and online and leave broke. So in the past two years I havent seen good players disappear because they've lost too much, their marriages have suffered, they've lost their jobs or chance at promotion. They've had to choose between poker and the rest of their lives, literally. And because u say it's bull**** then perhaps we should'nt discuss it?

Every adult 'should have the mental faculties to play poker that doesnt put their livelihood in danger' but many do not. I don't know how long you have been around the poker scene but you are being incredibly naive. In fact I don't think I have the patience to read this stuff any further. Expressing a concern about the losses that the majority of players experience and whether they can really afford it and what my role is in this when I take their money.... how is this bull****? This is the fooking REALITY that I've been talking about in the first place.
Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to teenagers caught up in the hype of some kind of new gameboy.

The fact is that most people lose money at poker. And that is a subject that currently concerns me. Perhaps a public forum isn't the place for me to express that concern but believe me, the dozen ex-players I personally know who were just as good as the best here and who will never return to the game, wouldn't consider my view 'bull****'.

I'm surprized that an experienced poster like you would choose to discuss this in an such antagonistic and facile way. As I say, perhaps I'm simply too old to be posting here. Perhaps in a couple of years you might have a little bit more awareness of what I'm concerned about, when you've seen a little more of the dark side of this game.

best of luck, d.