Gardai shooting to kill?

shltter

shltter wrote:

then we are agreed on the need for an ombudsman

yup-it would be the cost effective and right thing to have aswell as being the necessary mechanism to look into all incidents regardless of how obvious or un obvious the circumstances may be.
Theres no real insight into what happened here other than, the guys were up to no good and they died as a consequence.

I agree there will be a trial but a trial of the 3 remaining suspects will not be an investigation into the legitamacy of the shooting dead of the other 2

I wouldnt contend that its a substitute for an ombudsman either by a long shot, but it will have to bring out evidence from a non Garda source regarding the incident, which will be a lot more than we have to go on now.
That said I couldnt prejudge what a Nuala o' Loan style ombudsman would have to say in regards to this instance.
It would be hard to make everyone happy though.
O'Loan excelent as she is, hasnt avoided criticism in the North, but like my attitude to criticism is to look at who is directing it first and see if they have some other axe to grind before I take the criticism as worth more as opposed to worth less.

mike65

I hate being on the road when this sort of story breaks.

My philosophy is simple - if a cop sees an armed man with a gun and he does'nt disarm when ordered you shoot him. I'm sure Dirty Harry would have a quote for this sort of situation but I cant recall one right now.

Some of the Liveline calls were infurating, esp the indymedia type who talked of state execution :rolleyes:

Mike.

AmenToThat

One gun two dead, something certainly doesnt add up!

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

One gun two dead, something certainly doesnt add up!

It was probably a quick call made.
I will have to say this , though a lot of people wont share my sentiment-RIP

mike65

Earthman wrote:

I will have to say this , though a lot of people wont share my sentiment-RIP

Con, on this I have to disagree. They went out will evil intent and paid the price.

Mike.

Trotter

Ah look.. this is crazy. Its bad that they died, but hey.. lets just avoid that happening by arming the ERU with teddy bears and water balloons.

Its so frustrating how anti Garda people can be!! It wasnt kids that died, it was two ARMED ROBBERS!! Both scenarios are bad I know but there IS a difference!! Look at the outpouring of grief after the poor school kids died yesterday.

I find it sickening to compare their lives to those of two thugs who put themselves in harms way. They'd have killed ANY of us if we got in their way!!

Thankfully most people Ive spoken to today agree.. you rob a post office, threatening innocent people.. you are scum and deserve the conseqences.

The do-gooders have a point, there should be a garda ombudsman, if only to back up the gardai actions and so, stop the pro armed robber waffle Im seeing all over this thread!!

seamus

AmenToThat wrote:

One gun two dead, something certainly doesnt add up!

The law doesn't refer to "guns" it refers to "weapons". Gardai are in fact authorised to shoot someone holding a knife and posing a threat to the Gardai or the public.

Having seen the news, all we know now is that one gun and several weapons were receovered.

The Black Oil

I presume there'll be something on Prime Time tonight, they're usually quick enough in responding.

shltter

Trotter wrote:

Ah look.. this is crazy. Its bad that they died, but hey.. lets just avoid that happening by arming the ERU with teddy bears and water balloons.

Its so frustrating how anti Garda people can be!! It wasnt kids that died, it was two ARMED ROBBERS!! Both scenarios are bad I know but there IS a difference!! Look at the outpouring of grief after the poor school kids died yesterday.

I find it sickening to compare their lives to those of two thugs who put themselves in harms way. They'd have killed ANY of us if we got in their way!!

Thankfully most people Ive spoken to today agree.. you rob a post office, threatening innocent people.. you are scum and deserve the conseqences.

The do-gooders have a point, there should be a garda ombudsman, if only to back up the gardai actions and so, stop the pro armed robber waffle Im seeing all over this thread!!

I am not anti gardai I understand that they have a difficult job to do

I also understand that they may have had to make a split second decision
and that second guessing that decision is easy

I think that whenever Gardai shoot someone there should be an inquiry by an independent body

mike65

mike65 wrote:

on this I have to disagree. They went out will evil intent and paid the price.

Mike.

heh see what I mean I get it from all sides

mike,I wont speak ill of the dead once they are dead when I know nothing about them even if they have done something terrible.
I do know they brought it upon themselves and dont deserve sympathy for that but thats that.

Quantum

shltter wrote:

I am not anti gardai I understand that they have a difficult job to do

I also understand that they may have had to make a split second decision
and that second guessing that decision is easy

I think that whenever Gardai shoot someone there should be an inquiry by an independent body

I think that that is basically a fair statement that few could disagree with. It is the case in all shootings in the US, and i think in the UK.

But the enquiry should be low key on, by a special review team that is part of the police system (though not a normal section of the gardai) and not made into a national circus.

Quantum

mike65 wrote:

I hate being on the road when this sort of story breaks.

My philosophy is simple - if a cop sees an armed man with a gun and he does'nt disarm when ordered you shoot him. I'm sure Dirty Harry would have a quote for this sort of situation but I cant recall one right now.

Some of the Liveline calls were infurating, esp the indymedia type who talked of state execution :rolleyes:

Mike.

Yes.

There seems to be some kind of bizarre Wild-West cowboy 'duelling' philosophy involved....

Are the Gardai supposed to allow the bank robbers "first shot" out of some gentleman's sense of fair play ?

Are the gardai supposed to tackle these criminals and say STOP... but I won't shoot until you get a chance to kill me first ?

What NONSENSE !!

Armen Tanzarian

I have to say it was the highlight of my day and probably my week, two gun wielding, drug dealing, bank robbing Fcukin scum bags brought to justice. Pity they didn't get the other 2 knackers. I hope the gardai can continue this, fair play lads.

riskky

The moral of the story is that those who live by the guns shall die by the guns :cool:

tim3115

Some of the comments here are unbelievable. RIP???? Hahahaha

Sorry, it's just the way this country is gone now. Armed robbers shot dead, people whinge. What's going on like?

What we need is more Gardaí on the streets, armed too. This country is wayyy too lenient. Keep the shootings up :thumbsup:

FX Meister

As has been said, two less pieces of scum on the street. At least my taxes won't have to pay to keep them in Prison until their release where they would probably do the same thing again.

oscarBravo

AmenToThat wrote:

Agreed but from knowing a number of Gardai on a personal level the fact that a couple of them carry weapons doesnt inspire me with confidence, more a feeling of anxiety.

I know a lot of guards on a personal level, and a number of scumbag criminal knackers also.

Say what you will about the Gardaí, I'd rather they had the guns than the scumbags.

oscarBravo

AmenToThat wrote:

Its seems the Gardai knew of this gangs movements so why not arrest them at their home addresses...

That's a brilliant idea! All it needs now is a catchy name. How about... internment!!

"I'm arresting you for being one of the blokes someone told me was planning to rob a post office..."

MrPudding

AmenToThat wrote:

At the end of the day gardai knew in advance of this robbery and steps could have been taken before it came to this.
Its seems the Gardai knew of this gangs movements so why not arrest them at their home addresses or as they met up to go on the raid before firearms were distributed among the gang?

This is real life, not minority report. They have to be in the process of commiting the crime in order to be charged with it.

How many of you people slagging the Gardai about shooting robbers would be calling for their blood if they didn't shoot and a couple of innocent bystanders got killed.

There is a place for armed police. At the same time I also think there should be an independent ombudsman to investigate any shooting.

MrP

Rew

Sparks wrote:

Nope. The ERU's rules of engagement say they should issue a warning if possible, but if the criminals are a threat to life, the ERU can shoot first. The idea is to keep the number of casulties to a minimum - and if there's an armed robbery going on and one of the robbers has a firearm pointed at a civilian, the ERU can open fire without warning and should do so.

I said "within reason", I know the rules of engagement and the escalation of force. They are required to issue a waring if possible/within reason obviously if a warning is going to mean the loos of life thats not within reason.

fathersymes

Top marks to Gardai, 75,000 euro PA to house these knackers in Jail, pity the other two weren't shot too.

There is NO question, you go to commit a robbery armed with intent, you should be shot on sight, this is what you appear to intend to do to others when you carry a firearm with intent to threaten other.

More 'Harry Callaghan' please.

MoeHawk

**** sake I was going to post no, then read two posts and changed my mind, im uch a teen ager see click

Rew

AmenToThat wrote:

One gun two dead, something certainly doesnt add up!

Radio said a shotgun and a sidearm were recovered. They dont have to have a gun to get shot, there are other vaild resons to shoot (threating some ones life with another weapon or attempting to disarm a one of the cops for example).

pete

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/05/26/story204414.html

A garda spokesman said officers challenged four raiders after they entered the premises shortly after 8am.

“Shots were fired by gardaí,” he said.

“A loaded firearm (side arm) carried by one of the raiders was recovered at the scene. It is currently undergoing forensic examination to definitively establish as to whether or not it was fired.

I'd like to know why our (apparently) highly trained police don't know if the (apparently) single gun which was (apparently) pointed at them "definitively" went "BANG" and made a "definitive" hole in the wall / floor / ceiling or not.... are we looking at a "he pointed the gun and pulled the trigger but it failed to discharge" situation?

I wonder does the post office have video security cameras, and if so were they on, and if so will the footage see the light of day at an inquiry?

Dyr

oscarBravo wrote:

That's a brilliant idea! All it needs now is a catchy name. How about... internment!!

"I'm arresting you for being one of the blokes someone told me was planning to rob a post office..."

gardai already have similar powers but ssshhh about it. :rolleyes:

I'm starting to believe that the cops wanted a shootout and were willing to risk the public and post staff to get it. Embarrasing cowboys.

stil at least the streets are being made safe for joe public... hows that granny that got smacked by the squad car doing btw? :rolleyes:

FX Meister

Not to mention that cop doing 90 in a 30 zone that crashed into the gaff who walked free when the evidence "disappeared".

therecklessone

pete wrote:

I'd like to know why our (apparently) highly trained police don't know if the (apparently) single gun which was (apparently) pointed at them "definitively" went "BANG" and made a "definitive" hole in the wall / floor / ceiling or not.... are we looking at a "he pointed the gun and pulled the trigger but it failed to discharge" situation?

Perhaps the officers on the scene when the incident occured "know" it was fired, but given the scepticism most show towards the Gardai these days, forensics are needed to confirm a shot(s) was fired by the raiders?

Isn't it standard practise in other states to investigate the circumstances of all shootings by police officers?

mycroft

pete wrote:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/05/26/story204414.html



I'd like to know why our (apparently) highly trained police don't know if the (apparently) single gun which was (apparently) pointed at them "definitively" went "BANG" and made a "definitive" hole in the wall / floor / ceiling or not.... are we looking at a "he pointed the gun and pulled the trigger but it failed to discharge" situation?

again call me nuts, but exactly at what point do the garda give the benefit of the doubt to someone who could maybe be carrying a loaded firearm? Wheres the line, at what point when someone carrying a firearm (which they have no way of knowing is loaded) is pointed at them can kill them?

I wonder does the post office have video security cameras, and if so were they on, and if so will the footage see the light of day at an inquiry?

hopefully but you are engaged in pure speculation, you've yet to provide an example of whether some poor cop on 30€ a year should decide whether the gun pointed at him is loaded and when he should shoot.

pete

re: 2 posts back:

maybe, but i don't remember any other case of cops being shot at that required a forensic analysis before they could state "definitively" that it happened...

Dyr

perhaps they should decide whether they should create a situation where shootings are nigh on inevitable.

in previous instances the gardai told "untruths", again and again about the circumstances in which they opened fire, a gun was fired at them, no it was that a gun was pointed at them, no wait it was pointed at a member of the public ...etc etc until the media frenzy dies down.