Gardai shooting to kill?

mycroft

Trotter wrote:

Its great to hear that happens.. but its so naive to think that it could ever be the norm. Taking Dublin's inner city crime gangs for example.. many of those guys learned their trade from their fathers, and no doubt will pass it on.

So instead of blasting them away, or locking em up for longer sentences, lets make rehabilitation the priority.

I'm tired of this "lock em up and chuck away the key in some cell for 14hrs a day and then for the other 8 have em do menial labour for a euro an hour, that'll teach 'em", attitude. It doesn't work, all you have at the end of it is a bitterer hardened criminal. If we're spending €40,000 plus a year on each prisoner, then I'd rather spend a few hundred more a prison with an educational , drug rehabilitation, therapy. I'd rather my taxes were slightly higher if I thought there was a better chance of a rehabilitated prisoner.

If you get a chance, go through his backlog of columns, you see a progression, you see how intimidated he is by simple things outside, you see self confidence and self belief grow.

We don't have enough prisons like the one he left, and I think it's our responsibilty to ourselves, to ensure the guy coming out of prison, is less likely to reoffend. We're not doing that.

Saying the guy had 12 convictions and therefore was beyond redemition, damns him and damns us. The cynical should realise that the idealist has a point, if they come out with a trade and drugs help, and some shred of self confidence, theres a chance they're less likely to re offend, and the potential of them mugging or stealing is decreased.

There are teenagers who have far more convictions that this bloke, should we be happy if they die?

Call Me Jimmy

well if some teenagers have convictions up to their eyeballs then it's probably a certainty they will become even bigger scumbags so i don't mind if they die

mycroft

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

well if some teenagers have convictions up to their eyeballs then it's probably a certainty they will become even bigger scumbags so i don't mind if they die

And the boards.ie humanitarian of the year award goes to.............. :rolleyes:

So at what point do they become culpable, we don't let most teenagers vote, we have laws protecting them they're supposed to be unfit to make major decisions, at what point do you look at a 14yo and decide "fu*k it, I'd rather see him dead"?

Trotter

mycroft wrote:

So instead of blasting them away, or locking em up for longer sentences, lets make rehabilitation the priority.

Rehabilitation is fine for the first 2 or 3 offences. After that.. Work them. You'd pay more tax to make criminals lives nicer? Have you ever been attacked by someone like this!?! Your core beliefs are very honorable but shortsighted in my view. Some people are beyond rehabilitation. Some people are just scum.

mycroft wrote:

I'm tired of this "lock em up and chuck away the key in some cell for 14hrs a day and then for the other 8 have em do menial labour for a euro an hour, that'll teach 'em", attitude. It doesn't work, all you have at the end of it is a bitterer hardened criminal. If we're spending €40,000 plus a year on each prisoner, then I'd rather spend a few hundred more a prison with an educational , drug rehabilitation, therapy. I'd rather my taxes were slightly higher if I thought there was a better chance of a rehabilitated prisoner.

Criminals have NO fear of prison these days, thats why they risk good decent lives just to get what they want... and your ideal world values wouldnt stop them blowing a hole in your chest if you were in the way of a post office full of pensions.

mycroft wrote:

If you get a chance, go through his backlog of columns, you see a progression, you see how intimidated he is by simple things outside, you see self confidence and self belief grow.

Like I said, this is an excellent result, but you cannot expect this to happen in all cases. Its a naive view, and without meaning this as an insult in ANY way because I respect your opinion, it sounds like you have never spent any time in an inner city, drug ridden community. My family spent years trying to get out of inner city Dublin and I could tell you stories about scum that would make your skin crawl, and you wouldnt want these fellas rehabilitated, just locked up.

mycroft wrote:

There are teenagers who have far more convictions that this bloke, should we be happy if they die?

Nope.. But theres more teenagers dying from AIDS and Poverty as a result of the post office robbing drug dealers than there is teenagers being shot by Gardai.

Face it.. these guys were using the money they planned to rob to buy a drug shipment, and were selling it to kids. Dont blame the kids for that. On the other hand, get VERY rough with the ones that are to blame. Yesterday was getting tough.. day 1.

Trotter

mycroft wrote:

at what point do you look at a 14yo and decide "fu*k it, I'd rather see him dead"?

These guys were fully grown adults!! Capable of deciding whether to threaten ME or YOU and dealing with the consequences that fell on them.

You are being very very provocative and extremist with your "do we kill kids" argument. Nobody said that!! Extremism like that is just a reaction to the extremists on the other end of the scale. The point at which the Gardai wanted to see the guys yesterday dead..NEVER came! They shot to stop the criminals killing innocent people! I guarantee they didnt have time to think.. Hmmm.. I'll kill you I think.

I think you need to reason that last point out a bit. Its a bit ridiculous to directly compare a criminal on yesterdays scale being shot to that of a teenager who wasnt pointing a gun... and its a great example of extremist views that do nobody any good in any debate.

mycroft

Trotter wrote:

Rehabilitation is fine for the first 2 or 3 offences. After that.. Work them. You'd pay more tax to make criminals lives nicer? Have you ever been attacked by someone like this!?! Your core beliefs are very honorable but shortsighted in my view. Some people are beyond rehabilitation. Some people are just scum.

Firstly I've survived a couple of muggings, and several riots.

I'm sorry after two offences work em, and I'm short sighted? Long term rehabilitation doesn't work? What if crime two or three isn't a career criminal act, it's a stupid drunk and disorderly, he's off your happy nice list?

Criminals have NO fear of prison these days, thats why they risk good decent lives just to get what they want... and your ideal world values wouldnt stop them blowing a hole in your chest if you were in the way of a post office full of pensions.

Again a generalisation and speculation on your part? Did you conduct a survey of offenders heading to the joy?

Also good decent lives? You come from poverty you know only crime, and suddenly they have good decent lives, you said earlier they all did learn their trade from their dads, thats a good decent live for you?

Like I said, this is an excellent result, but you cannot expect this to happen in all cases. Its a naive view, and without meaning this as an insult in ANY way because I respect your opinion, it sounds like you have never spent any time in an inner city, drug ridden community. My family spent years trying to get out of inner city Dublin and I could tell you stories about scum that would make your skin crawl, and you wouldnt want these fellas rehabilitated, just locked up.

Really don't play the I'm more working class than yis card, it's cheap and it descends into a pardiy of that monty python sketch quickly.

Nope.. But theres more teenagers dying from AIDS and Poverty as a result of the post office robbing drug dealers than there is teenagers being shot by Gardai.

This is chalk this is cheese, my point was chalk, can you guess what your rebuttal is? The implication of above is that I should care more about teenagers with aids and poverty, I can care about all three.

Face it.. these guys were using the money they planned to rob to buy a drug shipment, and were selling it to kids.

Again thats conjecture and speculation without evidence to support it.

Dont blame the kids for that. On the other hand, get VERY rough with the ones that are to blame. Yesterday was getting tough.. day 1.

Ooooh macho.

See I'm not blaming the kids, I'm merely pointing out that todays teenager with a several convictions, is tomorrows bank robbery who's death you're lauding as a trimuph for law and order.

mycroft

Trotter wrote:

These guys were fully grown adults!! Capable of deciding whether to threaten ME or YOU and dealing with the consequences that fell on them.

You are being very very provocative and extremist with your "do we kill kids" argument. Nobody said that!!

Ahem

Call me Jimmy wrote:

well if some teenagers have convictions up to their eyeballs then it's probably a certainty they will become even bigger scumbags so i don't mind if they die

I was refering to this specific point. I wouldn't mind but I actually quoted it in my response.

tim3115

lets make rehabilitation the priority

I'd rather not actually, thanks for your input though. Give them the toughest time possible in prison, making them serve their actual sentence. If you're a repeat offender, hit them hard, very hard.

I can't understand the prison system here. I was listening to Newstalk106 this morning, had this prison warden on from the US. Had the right idea and it's a pity we don't follow suit. 2 meals a day, tough conditions, 23 hours inside for some and so on...

I'd rather my taxes were slightly higher if I thought there was a better chance of a rehabilitated prisoner

What an attitude. How can you have sympathy for these folk? I'd rather give my good hard earned money to people I actually care about, people who deserve it.

Saying the guy had 12 convictions and therefore was beyond redemition, damns him and damns us

It damned him alright, one bullet sorted that out fairly quickly. Why on earth would you want to rehabilitate people like this? I would think you have similar opinions regarding sex offenders? It wouldn't surprise me really.

There are teenagers who have far more convictions that this bloke, should we be happy if they die?

Totally off topic, but yes, why not? There's no turning back, no matter what way you look at it. If the problem hasn't been tackled early on, then that's it.

CiaranC

Its wall to wall Sun readers in this thread.

/me pukes

tim3115

CiaranC wrote:

Its wall to wall Sun readers in this thread.

/me pukes

That directed at me?

Carefull now guys-Big moderator is watching

coolhandluke

CiaranC wrote:

Its wall to wall Sun readers in this thread.

/me pukes

I think you'll find were the silent majority,even if RTE has attempted to turn it into another campaign against the gardai.

pete

tim3115 wrote:

I can't understand the prison system here. I was listening to Newstalk106 this morning, had this prison warden on from the US. Had the right idea and it's a pity we don't follow suit. 2 meals a day, tough conditions, 23 hours inside for some and so on...

... because as we all know, it's practically wiped out crime in America.

pete

coolhandluke wrote:

I think you'll find were the silent majority,even if RTE has attempted to turn it into another campaign against the gardai.

eh?

Dyr

Trotter wrote:

Yep.. 7 years , reduced to 3 for good behaviour, so they can come back out and do the same thing in 4 years time.

rubbish, take a look at the amount of time anyone who has shot a cop in this country has done. last i knew, The death sentence was still technically on the books for this very reason.

Trotter

Bambi wrote:

rubbish, take a look at the amount of time anyone who has shot a cop in this country has done. last i knew, The death sentence was still technically on the books for this very reason.

Rubbish?? The last people I heard that shot a cop were all set to be released early last christmas and even though they werent, they live in bungalows with SKY TV!! I dont even have Sky TV!!

Dyr

Are they still serving their sentences?

Trotter

CiaranC wrote:

Its wall to wall Sun readers in this thread.

/me pukes

I find that pretty insulting.

Trotter

Bambi wrote:

Are they still serving their sentences?

Maybe so, I accept that they are, but still.. living in relative comfort etc, not something I expect Garda killers to be doing. Now Im not saying hang them by the ankles but I do find it unacceptable that they were almost released, thankfully because the voice of the people was so loud that it was taken off the table just in time.

Call Me Jimmy

CiaranC wrote:

Its wall to wall Sun readers in this thread.

/me pukes

CiaranC who reads the ****ing SUN? 15 year old girls. If you have a point make it, if not don't insult me with such crap

Trotter

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

CiaranC who reads the ****ing SUN? 15 year old girls. If you have a point make it, if not don't insult me with such crap

Not to worry, as far as I can see the forum is 99% full of people with strong views, being put forward in a rational way, making for very interesting reading. I might not agree with everyones ideas but I respect the way most of them are put forward.

Then theres others who make no point at all.. just insult. The Mods are minding us, we'll be grand

billy the squid

I am of the view that the Gardai were right in their actions yesterday. And it is not like the Guards came out with guns blazing, they repeatedly orderd these men to lower their weapons. which they didnt and they ended up killing two of them.

It is interesting how the Original poster used the "shoot to kill" title of the thread trying to make the guardai out to be the RUC of the 1970s. I would like to know what that was all about.

murphaph

I and all of my colleagues were pleased to hear that those individuals were carried away in bodybags. Crime pays in this country and it's good to see the society getting a 'rebate'.

Dyr

billy the squid wrote:

I am of the view that the Gardai were right in their actions yesterday. And it is not like the Guards came out with guns blazing, they repeatedly orderd these men to lower their weapons. which they didnt and they ended up killing two of them.

It is interesting how the Original poster used the "shoot to kill" title of the thread trying to make the guardai out to be the RUC of the 1970s. I would like to know what that was all about.

probably becasue the gardai appeared to have set up an ambush rather than intervene before the raid was in progress to make arrests

murphaph

Bambi wrote:

probably becasue the gardai appeared to have set up an ambush rather than intervene before the raid was in progress to make arrests

meh...

CJhaughey

Sorry, been away for a while and this thread developed way faster than I could respond to.
I was not likening the Gardai to the RUC of the 70's -80's.
I was asking the question based either correctly or incorrectly on my recollection that nearly every incident that armed Gardai are in attendance appears to result in a Casualty/Fatality, not always the criminals as in this case but also in Abbeyleix (Garda killed and injured) and Abbeylara (man shot dead).
I asked are the gardai adequately trained or trigger happy?
It seems the more information that comes to light the more questionable the tactics employed by the gardai are.
Had they had not thought that the Robbers might use a back/side door?

d22ontour

billy the squid wrote:

I am of the view that the Gardai were right in their actions yesterday. And it is not like the Guards came out with guns blazing, they repeatedly orderd these men to lower their weapons. which they didnt and they ended up killing two of them.

It is interesting how the Original poster used the "shoot to kill" title of the thread trying to make the guardai out to be the RUC of the 1970s. I would like to know what that was all about.

Don't forget the 80's and 90's as well.The gardai done no wrong in my eyes.Gangs are getting more armed all the time and why should the gardai be held responsible for reacting in the manner that they did when compared to this scum robbing/murdering people.As for the people saying they should have been warned do they think that the gardai can suss out every job that is done ?

The answer is no if it was yes ireland would be a safer place to live in i would think.Gun crime is serious and when scum use guns they should be stopped in whatever means nessacary.

There are two less armed robbers in ireland who for what we know could have murdered people"probaby scum" but thanks to the gardai won't be around to kill anyone else innocent or not.

Trotter

Bambi wrote:

probably becasue the gardai appeared to have set up an ambush rather than intervene before the raid was in progress to make arrests

You cant arrest someone for an armed robbery they havent committed yet.

rabbitinlights

In my eyes If a person steps into a public place with a gun drawn in anger, they should be shot and killed even if they shoot or not. If this was the case, Im sure the fall of gun crime would follow. I know its not ideal, but It would make them think before walking out of the door with a gun.

Trotter

CJhaughey wrote:

I was asking the question based either correctly or incorrectly on my recollection that nearly every incident that armed Gardai are in attendance appears to result in a Casualty/Fatality, not always the criminals as in this case...

Most ERU activities arent publicised, thats why you only ever hear the "bad news".

Often when the Gardaí are praised for catching criminals, Ive heard its often the ERU that are heavily involved, and then disappear into the background immediately.

In this case it was impossible to claim they werent involved.. hence we hear all about the incident.