Gardai shooting to kill?

shltter

Earthman wrote:

you could ask the postmistress, she was there and a witness.

Really do you have her phone number

and was she standing outside when the shooting happened

will she be present at all future garda related shootings since you seem to be offering her as some kind of alternative to an independent garda ombudsman

shltter

AmenToThat wrote:

Apparently Amnesty Internation want an enquiry into the incident as it seems the gardai knew in advance that they were in a stolen car, had been tracking their movements and knew they had stored weapons and so arrests could have taken place before they even reached the post office.
How true any of this is is anyones guess I guess it will take a few days for the facts to come out but it certainly doesnt seem as clear cut a case for shooting as it did this morning.

My point exactly

If it was clear cut why the spin that gardai had returned fire

that is what makes me suspicous

shltter

shltter wrote:

Really do you have her phone number

and was she standing outside when the shooting happened

will she be present at all future garda related shootings since you seem to be offering her as some kind of alternative to an independent garda ombudsman

According to news reports she was in the post office with 2 eru officers hiding behind her when the raid started.
I'd already mentioned that here, did you read the whole thread?

I'd imagine she will be a witness when the thing goes to court, you will be reading her testimony no?

shltter

Big Ears wrote:

Some people here would nearly rather than a couple of guards had been shot dead and no criminals , from reports it seems they have done their job and done it well .

I see that amnesty International have called for an independent inquiry as well
they must be a shower of garda hating scumbags as well I suppose

segadreamcast

This is a bit ridiculous. Surely if the Garda were waiting to pounce and knew this was going to happen - they could have arranged something better to incapacitate these robbers?

I'm thinking stun grenades, gas, etc. Frankly they seem to have jumped to the last resort first and whilst I'm not trying to condemn the brave work of the Garda (infact, I commend it in general) - I do wonder does this not strengthen the case to disarm the trigger happy Garda after the incidents at Abbeylara and, indeed, the less cited Abbeyleix.

AmenToThat

shltter wrote:

I see that amnesty International have called for an independent inquiry as well
they must be a shower of garda hating scumbags as well I suppose

Well thats pretty much the defence the American administration is using about Amnesty's latest report published turesday so the Gardai will be in good company.

Kingsize

the less cited Abbeyleix

or the Athy bank robbery in 1990

shltter

shltter wrote:

I see that amnesty International have called for an independent inquiry as well
they must be a shower of garda hating scumbags as well I suppose

Nope, just doing what they always and rightly always do.

You would want to read what they say about the IRA...

Why the spin by they way by you on their call for an enquiry?

NoelRock wrote:

- I do wonder does this not strengthen the case to disarm the trigger happy Garda after the incidents at Abbeylara and, indeed, the less cited Abbeyleix.

Personally,I'd prioritise the disarming of trigger happy bankrobbers before,I'd be disarming the Gardaí.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

According to news reports she was in the post office with 2 eru officers hiding behind her when the raid started.
I'd already mentioned that here, did you read the whole thread?

I'd imagine she will be a witness when the thing goes to court, you will be reading her testimony no?

again earthman it does not say she witnessed the shooting

and presumably the two ERU officers with her were not the ones that did the shooting as they were behind the screen


One witness who was in the Post Office is not an alternative to an independent inquiry or a garda ombudsman

AmenToThat

Earthman wrote:

Personally,I'd prioritise the disarming of trigger happy bankrobbers before,I'd be disarming the Gardaí.

Agreed but from knowing a number of Gardai on a personal level the fact that a couple of them carry weapons doesnt inspire me with confidence, more a feeling of anxiety. I dunno what kind of vetting the Gardai do for firearms training but its not upto scratch in my opinion.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

Nope, just doing what they always and rightly always do.

You would want to read what they say about the IRA...

Why the spin by they way by you on their call for an enquiry?.

why the attempt to drag the discussion of topic and on to AIs views on the IRA

what spin ??

Earthman wrote:

Personally,I'd prioritise the disarming of trigger happy bankrobbers before,I'd be disarming the Gardaí.

except in this case and from memory the other two mentioned the robbers did not discharge their weapons

shltter

shltter wrote:

again earthman it does not say she witnessed the shooting

According to the news report I heard, she(the post mistress) was at her desk behind the security screen as one of the raiders started to pound it with a sledge hammer.I'd imagine, she was enough in the thick of things to know whether the raiders were armed and whether they were threatening to use these arms.
You and I however were not there so cant assume anything really other than that she will be a non garda witness at the trial.

One witness who was in the Post Office is not an alternative to an independent inquiry or a garda ombudsman

Oh I agree with you there should be a Garda ombudsman.
Where I will have truck with you , is your discounting of what good the postmistress is as a witness when you werent there and she was.

shltter

shltter wrote:

why the attempt to drag the discussion of topic and on to AIs views on the IRA

no attempt at all, I could have mentioned any organisation that they are critical of,I merely used one example of how amnesty international do their job and rightly so.

what spin ??

The spin you put on peoples supposed opinions of amnesty before anybody even offered one...

except in this case and from memory the other two mentioned the robbers did not discharge their weapons

I see so you are advocating what here? That the Gardaí should have ignored that they didnt put down their weapons when law enforcement officers told them to do so?
Or that the Gardaí should have been of the opinion that the robbers by not putting down their weapons would not have taken a shot?
In other words the Gardaí should have waited ?
Get real, the Gardaí didnt initiate the agression and to be honest you wont find too many law abiding ordinary citizens having much sympathy for the criminals ignoring the Garda order to lower their weapons.
Rather I would suggest, you'd see praise for them for a job well done.

seamus

why would he have been shot dead

Exactly. That's why I'm skeptical about some randomer on Joe Duffy claiming there was only one weapon.

shltter wrote:

My point exactly

If it was clear cut why the spin that gardai had returned fire

that is what makes me suspicous

Because when reporters are talking to people at the scene, they take anybody's word for it and print it. If the Gardai had said it, the news report would say "A Garda spokesman said..."

As far as I can see, the Gardai have made no comment, so why would you be suspicious?

AmenToThat

At the end of the day gardai knew in advance of this robbery and steps could have been taken before it came to this.
Its seems the Gardai knew of this gangs movements so why not arrest them at their home addresses or as they met up to go on the raid before firearms were distributed among the gang?
They used a stolen car and had at least one firearm so there would have been enough evidence for a conviction.
Alot of talk about 'Hollywood movies' on here but it seems to me that its the Gardai who were involved in todays operation who have been watching to many movies.

Sleipnir

The 'story' has changed alright, according to RTE.
The facts, however, remain the same. I'll wait for them and I suggest others do to before leaping from one conclusion to another with a happy cry.

segadreamcast

Earthman wrote:

Personally,I'd prioritise the disarming of trigger happy bankrobbers before,I'd be disarming the Gardaí.

Oh brav-o. You isolated one part of the message and decided to say you'd prefer to "disarm the trigger happy bankrobbers". How about looking at the part of my message you didn't copy and paste? Stun grenades, gas... there were alternative options available - especially considering the guards were prepared.

Sleipnir

NoelRock wrote:

Oh brav-o. You isolated one part of the message and decided to say you'd prefer to "disarm the trigger happy bankrobbers". How about looking at the part of my message you didn't copy and paste? Stun grenades, gas... there were alternative options available - especially considering the guards were prepared.

Example:Someone is pointing a gun at your heart.
You're holding a stun grenade.
You both react at the same time.
Who's going to get there target first?

I certainly would rather be the guy with the gun.

Gas only really works in a confined space. If the Gardai had threatened to use gas or stun grenades on the criminal while they were in the post office they would have put the civilians inside at personal risk or risked a hostage situation.

Situations like that are extremely fluid and it's easy for us to say "they should have done this or shouldn't have done that" but at the time you might have a tenth of a second to make a decision.

In the words of a great WWII general
"Plans are extremely useful things until things actually get started"

AmenToThat

NoelRock wrote:

Oh brav-o. You isolated one part of the message and decided to say you'd prefer to "disarm the trigger happy bankrobbers". How about looking at the part of my message you didn't copy and paste? Stun grenades, gas... there were alternative options available - especially considering the guards were prepared.

Precisely the point Im making, I have no love for bankrobbers but the fact remains the gardai knew in advance about the activities of these fellas and in my opinion these robbers shouldnt have even got to the 'scene of the crime' let alone there be a need for stun grenades or gas!

Sparks

Rew wrote:

They have a procedure they have to follow or they will be done for murder same as anyone else. Part of it requires them to issue a warning (within reason).

Nope. The ERU's rules of engagement say they should issue a warning if possible, but if the criminals are a threat to life, the ERU can shoot first. The idea is to keep the number of casulties to a minimum - and if there's an armed robbery going on and one of the robbers has a firearm pointed at a civilian, the ERU can open fire without warning and should do so.

Sleipnir

AmenToThat wrote:

Precisely the point Im making, I have no love for bankrobbers but the fact remains the gardai knew in advance about the activities of these fellas and in my opinion these robbers shouldnt have even got to the 'scene of the crime' let alone there be a need for stun grenades or gas!

Then they would not be able to be tried for attempted armed robbery or armed robbery.

shltter

seamus wrote:

Exactly. That's why I'm skeptical about some randomer on Joe Duffy claiming there was only one weapon.

well only time will tell

seamus wrote:

Because when reporters are talking to people at the scene, they take anybody's word for it and print it. If the Gardai had said it, the news report would say "A Garda spokesman said..."

As far as I can see, the Gardai have made no comment, so why would you be suspicious.

RTEs crime corrospondent was on morning Ireland this morning about 15 minutes after the shooting
although he did not name the guy who had been shot he made it pretty clear he knew who the guy was
he also said that there had been an exchange of fire

now the only place that info came from was the gardai themselves

and i would imagine it was from the gardai in charge or involved as it was so soon after the incident
so it was a case of the gardai getting their side out first

Phil_321

Great job by the Gardaí. Who cares if a few scumbags got their comeupance. There's been a spate of robberies over the last year, some securicor personnel have been shot by these criminals. I can't see how anyone could give a fook about these scumbags.

segadreamcast

Sleipnir wrote:

Example:Someone is pointing a gun at your heart.
You're holding a stun grenade.
You both react at the same time.
Who's going to get there target first?

I certainly would rather be the guy with the gun.

Gas only really works in a confined space. If the Gardai had threatened to use gas or stun grenades on the criminal while they were in the post office they would have put the civilians inside at personal risk or risked a hostage situation.

Situations like that are extremely fluid and it's easy for us to say "they should have done this or shouldn't have done that" but at the time you might have a tenth of a second to make a decision.

In the words of a great WWII general
"Plans are extremely useful things until things actually get started"

But the Guards had advance knowledge of the robbery - there was time to prepare - this was not, as many of you are describing, some sort of erratic stand-off that suddenly occured. Your example is fairly fanciful and somewhat absurd to be perfectly honest, anybody could twist that any way they wished for the sake of their own agenda - let's try and stick to the facts instead of hypothesising, shall we?

Surely if the guards were in the post office waiting for the robbers - the place would have been cleared of civilians for instance? That would resemble common sense surely...

(Yes Amen, it seems we're on the same page in a sense)

Sparks

I can't see how anyone could give a fook about these scumbags.

I'd be more worried about the civilians. Meaning, the report I heard a half-hour ago stated that one of the people in the shop was a gardai who'd been dressed as the usual courier in order to get into the shop and at the gang. If they had that level of prior warning, leaving any civilians in the shop wasn't exactly the more responsible course of action.
Again, like Abbylara, it's not the shooting that's the problem, it's what led up to it.

shltter

Phil_321 wrote:

Great job by the Gardaí. Who cares if a few scumbags got their comeupance. There's been a spate of robberies over the last year, some securicor personnel have been shot by these criminals. I can't see how anyone could give a fook about these scumbags.

But we live in a democratic society where the rule of law applies

and it applies to everyone we as a society have not give anyone the right to just shoot as they please

the gardai are entitled and obliged to shoot for all the various reasons that have already been laid out

as a society we have to ensure that this incident is covered and that the men who were shot were shot legitimately

shltter

Earthman wrote:

According to the news report I heard, she(the post mistress) was at her desk behind the security screen as one of the raiders started to pound it with a sledge hammer.I'd imagine, she was enough in the thick of things to know whether the raiders were armed and whether they were threatening to use these arms.
You and I however were not there so cant assume anything really other than that she will be a non garda witness at the trial.

Oh I agree with you there should be a Garda ombudsman.
Where I will have truck with you , is your discounting of what good the postmistress is as a witness when you werent there and she was.

I have not discounted any witness

All i have said is that there should be an independent inquiry and or the garda ombudsman

to which you suggested that the post mistress would be an alternative

now as you have conceded we dont know what the postmistress saw or heard so i hardly think suggesting i go and ask the postmistress what happened is a better suggestion than having an independent investigation

NoelRock

NoelRock wrote:

Oh brav-o. You isolated one part of the message and decided to say you'd prefer to "disarm the trigger happy bankrobbers". How about looking at the part of my message you didn't copy and paste? Stun grenades, gas... there were alternative options available - especially considering the guards were prepared.

Generally (but not always) if someone replying ignores a point in the post to which they are replying it generally(but not always) means that they agree with that part.
You can take it that I took your point,I'll elaborate a bit now, see-ing as you drew my attention to it.
The criminals may well have been able to shoot if tear gas or stun grenades were used-fact of the matter is, there have been an awfull lot of shootings in raids in the last year meaning something had to be done.
Kudos to the Gardaí in my opinion for having the inteligence to crack this attempted robbery and arrange this sting, it's a good sign with repect to crime prevention that they are able to get it spot on in regards to inteligence.

shltter

shltter wrote:

I have not discounted any witness

All i have said is that there should be an independent inquiry and or the garda ombudsman

to which you suggested that the post mistress would be an alternative

now as you have conceded we dont know what the postmistress saw or heard so i hardly think suggesting i go and ask the postmistress what happened is a better suggestion than having an independent investigation

I'd prefer a Garda ombudsman myself - Nuala o loan style.I think the watered down proposals for here are inadequate.
The holding of an abbeylara style inquiry every time to incidents such as this would be a waste in my opinion.

what I suggested was that there would be a trial and that then would be the time to comment properly on the evidence presented.
I'll qualify that opinion now to say that I said it without predjudice to my opinion that there should be a Garda ombudsman with investigative powers as full and complete as Nualo O' Loan has.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

I'd prefer a Garda ombudsman myself - Nuala o loan style.I think the watered down proposals for here are inadequate.
The holding of an abbeylara style inquiry every time to incidents such as this would be a waste in my opinion.

what I suggested was that there would be a trial and that then would be the time to comment properly on the evidence presented.
I'll qualify that opinion now to say that I said it without predjudice to my opinion that there should be a Garda ombudsman with investigative powers as full and complete as Nualo O' Loan has.

then we are agreed on the need for an ombudsman

I agree there will be a trial but a trial of the 3 remaining suspects will not be an investigation into the legitamacy of the shooting dead of the other 2