Diesels

jayok

I can assure you there will be tears, but the time has come to sell the Civic Type-R and grow up. There's a baby on the way and we're moving out of the current residence to a place thats a good bit a way from work. As such I will be doing about 3k-4k miles per month and realistically I am looking at getting a diesel car, but my question is simple. What one?

I like the Accord diesel since it's very quiet compared to the competition and is fully loaded for under €40k. But then again I was told the BMW 320D is best in it class - but the cost of these hardly seems worth it for a car that in 3 years will probably have 100k on it and be worth nothing. Mercedes seem to fall into that class.

Basically I am looking for a reliable diesel car in the size class of the Accord or BMW 3 series that I can drive into the ground. Help, I am familiar with petrol but diesel, that's always been for tractors

greglo23

the Accord diesel is the best of the bunch at the moment and it`s not silly money. the new mercs and bmw`s are very troublesome and cost a small fortune to fix. look here for a test http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=99.

ando

Well I'b biased but a great diesel is the Seat Leon TDI 150, a cheap remap and its a rocket, aprox 200BHP and 300ft/lbs of torque :cool:

and its a 5dr, keep the family happy :rolleyes:

ds20prefecture

If you're looking for reliability and you're going to drive it into the ground, why not buy a new Škoda Octavia? The new one has great space & kit and the 2.0 diesel is almost as good as the BMW. Use the 10k you saved to buy something classic, fast and stylish.

Or a 156 JTD. This is probably the best diesel in the class. Note: I am not intending to hijack your thread with an Alfa reliability discussion - it's been done to death on these forums. Suffice it to say that their reliability reputation is poor, but the reality of ownership is great.

Or spend €40k on a used BMW 530d. There is probably no better all round car. Running costs are high, though.

I would avoid other appliances like the Citroën C5 (These live up to their poor reliability reputation) or the Pug 407 (does anybody really need a 1 meter front overhang?)

Alun

If you're in need of space to transport buggies and all other manner of baby related paraphernalia around maybe something like a Focus C-Max TDCi? I have one, and it's the most car-like mini-MPV out there.

jayok

Thanks for the suggestions folks.

Obviously running costs are a concern, as that's all the car will be doing is running. That's what I'm thinking 2 litre bracket.

If you're looking for reliability and you're going to drive it into the ground, why not buy a new Škoda Octavia? The new one has great space & kit and the 2.0 diesel is almost as good as the BMW

Don't mean to be smart here but the only time I've been in these is when in a taxi and I thought the ride a little rough. I understand they're great cars to keep going, but can anyone compare them to an actual BMW / Accord for comfort.

jayok

Alun wrote:

If you're in need of space to transport buggies and all other manner of baby related paraphernalia around maybe something like a Focus C-Max TDCi? I have one, and it's the most car-like mini-MPV out there.

What's the news Ford diesels like? Is it a 2litre? I drove a Mondeo diesel once and it wouldn't pull the knickers off a wh*re. I imagine that the new diesels are better. Bearing in mind the long driving that has to be done.

ds20prefecture

jayok wrote:

What's the news Ford diesels like? Is it a 2litre? I drove a Mondeo diesel once and it wouldn't pull the knickers off a wh*re. I imagine that the new diesels are better. Bearing in mind the long driving that has to be done.

New fords use PSA Diesel engines - they are excellent engines, particularly in 1.6 form. I wouldn't buy a Ford. Not quite sure why, but I wouldn't.

I didn't mean to compare the Skoda to a BMW all round, rather the engine is as good as the BMW (almost). I was suggesting that you buy an appliance-type car for day-to-day, and use the money saved to buy something interesting for when you want to have fun. I run a 1.6 Škoda Octavia and a 1972 Citroën DS. My next new car will be another Octavia, definitely in Diesel form. The new Octavia is much more refined car than it's predecessor.

Compared with a C-Max, Volvo V50 (also a Focus, and also using PSA diesels), the Octavia is a lot bigger and a lot cheaper. V50 is a nice car inside, though.

CrowdedHouse

I have an A4 TDI (130) - very pleased with it.Very comfortable,solid,no squeaks or rattles after a year.Very economical 50+ mpg,nice/sufficient performance.
Elegant looking car I think.

Alun

jayok wrote:

What's the news Ford diesels like? Is it a 2litre? I drove a Mondeo diesel once and it wouldn't pull the knickers off a wh*re. I imagine that the new diesels are better. Bearing in mind the long driving that has to be done.

I've got the 1.6 TDCi. As ds20prefecture says they're manufactured by PSA, so effectively the same as the engine in, say, the Peugeot 307 HDi. The old Mondeo lump was a Ford-own TDDi, and was a little "agricultural" shall we say.

As for comfort ... there's a guy over on another forum I inhabit who's got a 2.0 TDCi Focus C-Max and a BMW 320d on his driveway ... guess which car he takes on long journeys? Hint: it hasn't got a propellor logo on the bonnet:)

knifey_spoonie

After doing some maths

Your cost of diesel per year will be around €4,200
Your cost of diesel per year will be around €4,600

Im going with toyota because i know them

Avensis Strata 1.6 petrol.........€26,450
Avensis Strata 2.0 diesel.........€31,150

Difference is 4,700 Which would pay for petrol If you were to choose it

in three years your diesel avensis would be worth say €14500
Including all road costs after 3 years you will have spent €31,650 on a diesel

A petrol anvensis would be worth €12,000

Including all road costs after 3 years in a petrol avensis it woould cost €29,700

I would say try a prius

if you do high millage i would be nice as it has an autobox climate control At 29,000 doing 55MPG its going to work out cheaper than a diesel.It also comes with a 10 year warenty on all hybrid parts

jayok

Hi Knife Fighter,

I assume it should be:

Your cost of diesel per year will be around €4,200
Your cost of petrol per year will be around €4,600

Hmmm... didn't actually think of it like that. I was simply comparing the Accord 2.0 vs the 2.2 diesel. The 2.0 petrol does 35 mpg urban were as the diesel does 62mpg urban. I simply guessed about 40% more efficient on fuel. But the 1.6 Avensis, now I didn't even think of that.

Isn't the Prius still trial technology? I know it gets 55MPG but compared to the Accord for example? Although it's significantly cheaper.... hmmmm... damn this just gets more complex. Need to test drive the Prius.

greglo23

apparently the Avensis 1.6 wouldnt pull the skin off a sausage !!!!!

unkel

This is interesting and whatever you go for, jayok, I hope it works out great for your family

A lot has been said already. If I were you and I had the inclination to buy a new car and the budget to get a BMW 320d, I would have no doubt and go for it

If you'd like to save some money but still want a great stylish diesel drivers' car, get the Alfa Romeo 156 1.9 JTD 16v. It is the best diesel in it's segment

If you'd like to save a helluvalot of money, get the Octavia - just got the "best family car" vote / award for the 4th year in a row from people owning it it the J.D. Power survey

The Toyota Avensis diesel and the Octavia probably are contenders of the cheapest and most reliable overall family size car to run for a long time with a huge mileage, but jaysis, how boring a car can one tolerate

jayok wrote:

I was told the BMW 320D is best in it class - but the cost of these hardly seems worth it for a car that in 3 years will probably have 100k on it and be worth nothing

If you're worried about 3 year depreciation, the slowest depreciating cars of all are the BMW 320d and the Mercedes C220 CDI (in the UK - I've never come across ratings for Ireland)

jayok wrote:

Basically I am looking for a reliable diesel car in the size class of the Accord or BMW 3 series that I can drive into the ground

Driving it into the ground, so 3 year depreciation is probably not that important?

greglo23 wrote:

the Accord diesel is the best of the bunch at the moment and it`s not silly money. the new mercs and bmw`s are very troublesome and cost a small fortune to fix

The Accord diesel is good and it is a remarkable performance from Honda for their first ever diesel engine. It is neither class leading nor great though...

Care to back that statement about the BMW diesel being troublesome up? Bet you can't :rolleyes:

The second hand but newish 530d that ds20prefecture suggested is a fantastic car and probably the best diesel engine in the world. It is the first of the "new diesels" - the very car that started the diesel revolution back in '99. I feel second hand prices are very, very high though :dunno:

alias no.9

Surely the Alfa 156 2.4 JTD, as the first common rail direct injection diesel engine, was the first of the "new diesels" in 1998?

Anyway, if you want a quiet diesel engine, stay away from VW and all it's clones. Thier reluctance to adopt common rail technology has left them behind the competition in terms of noise and refinement of the engine.

halkar

Jayok, I took two BMW 320d 02 and 03 almost new with low mileage for long test drives last week and I can only say that they are uber$hite. Don't buy a car for the badge and pay the primium to get nothing other than steering wheel and pedals. One had leather interior walnut dash and xeon lights bla bla and no CD and basic air con :eek: Feck all in them for the year unless you look for fully loaded ones that comes with a fury dice hanging on the mirror Driving them was crap, interior felt small and did not feel comfortable at all even the leather one. Only good part of the 320d were the outside looks and I must admit they do look stunning until you get inside where you will spend most of your time.

Now after I finished with beemers and got back in my C4 Woooooow I was in Star Trek comparing to those two $hites :cool: I do not understand why people does not like Citroens and Pugs but after trying many diesels they are the best out there, quite, economic, confortable and unlike many others think they are very reliable (at least for me as this is my second Cit). My last car Xsara had over 100k miles on the clock in 3,5 years it was never in the garage other than regular service and occasional tyre chages.

I do about the same mileage as you will be doing every month and costs me about €150 - €180 for the diesel, two services a year with the cost of about €300 maybe less (unlike beemers €300 to open the bonet ), cheap tax for 1.6 engine comparing to 2L and little saving on the insurance. You can do your maths from this.

My advice, try the beemers don't just jugde by their looks and try others including Pugs and Citroens get as much toys as you can for your money, beleive me I thought I never use cruise control and speed limiters but I do every day, very usefull toys to avoid getting speed tickets and points. Compare specs as you will spend long time in the car so put the confort on top of everything. Regardless what you buy now you will feel like changing in 3-4 years as those years will feel like 6-7 years comparing to average 10k a year drivers.

Good luck and welcome to the diesel world, there is no turning back.

unkel

alias no.9 wrote:

Surely the Alfa 156 2.4 JTD, as the first common rail direct injection diesel engine, was the first of the "new diesels" in 1998?

Yes it was, the JTD was the first common rail diesel engine on the market in '97. In fact Fiat started developing common rail in the 80s. Bosch finished it off for them. The 530d (also Bosch) was introduced in '98

The impact of the revolution of the common rail started with the 530d imho when shocked motoring journo petrolheads had to admit they'd recommend the 530d over the 530i

halkar wrote:

no CD and basic air con :eek:

As I stated, depreciation of the 320d is glacial, so buying a second hand one presents vary poor value for money. As for standard features, BMWs are now imported by BMW themselves. All Irish cars are full UK spec, so if you'd buy a 320d now, you would have the usuals as standard (aircon, cd, immobiliser, traction control, etc)

So I gather you don't like the 3-series then

I've no doubt that the E90 320d will again turn out to be best in class in terms of driving / handling / performance, but of course people buy cars for other reasons as well

Ratchet

530D

pleasure that you can measure

1109 for road tax :rolleyes:

halkar

unkel wrote:

..
I've no doubt that the E90 320d will again turn out to be best in class in terms of driving / handling / performance, but of course people buy cars for other reasons as well

I will take a E90 320d for test drive in the coming weeks out of curiosity, so far I only sat in it and played around for a while. Better layed out then older ones and some 735 thouches here and there but €45k for basic and €50k or little more for the model I would be interested with some bells and whistles it is a lot of money. 02 and 03 were around €30-35k so even though they might not depreciate much in 2-3 years because it is new model in the worst the lost is almost €20k depends on the mileage.

Don't forget doing over 30k miles a year will make almost 100k in 3 years and no garage will entertain you nicely if you go for trade in while private buyers will try avoiding you unless you cut your price with that much on the clock (it sounds even worst in KMs ). So it is loose loose stiuation. Of course unless the money is not problem then I would say go and get 735 fully loaded and live in it But if that was the case than jayok would not be thinking of getting rid of Civic Type-R .

My advice for cheap motoring go for Pugs or Cits with 1.6 hdi diesel fully loaded and have a nice holiday or two with what you save, beleive me it will be long time before you drive them into the ground.

bazz26

Probably mentioned already but did you look at the Audi A4 TDi 130bhp? Plenty of them about and cheaper than a 320D but again standard toys will be few and far between.

damo605

I drove a span new (04 at the time) BMW 320D once and honestly it felt *nothing* special, looked beautiful though. But take into account the terrible reliability of BMWs and how much they cost to keep going I personally think they would be a bad choice for a high mileage driver.
If I was planning on buying a car to cover that sort of high mileage I'd seriously look to Japan for a solution - i.e. Accord/Avensis/Primera/6... They'll take the abuse

jayok

Hi All,

Thanks for all the suggestions and debates I really thought it would be more simple than this.

Here's what I'm looking at from the discussion

1. BMW 320D - average enough, expensive to buy and if something goes wrong
2. 530D - great car but 1109 for tax!! :eek:
3. Skoda - good value for money but plain jane
4. Didn't consider Audi as these are just VW diesels and are they rough on the senses
5. Alfa 1.9JTD - may be best in it class, but I have to admit I fear Alfa's given my experience and the legal action I had before
6. Pugs, I know that the quality of the product has increased dramatically in the last few years but I also personally know a Service Manager in one of the largest Pug dealerships and I've hear so many horror stories.
7. Citroen - nothing personal but I see them in the category as 6
8. Japanese Diesels... hmmm... seem to be the way to go for value for money, not the cheapest but seem to get it all in one package. From aesthetics, I feel the accord has the advantage over the primera or avensis. But it is the dearer of the lot.

One final question, do Lexus do a Diesel IS200 type of thing I always liked that car?

bazz26

The all new IS200 will be available with a 2.2 D4D diesel engine towards the end of the year.

samo

Dont have much to add to this discussion but can say this, I had an 02 1.6 Petrol Avensis for 18 months from new and it was a nice car to drive, extremely reliable, reasonable on petrol 400 miles to approx €48 euro (admittidley thats 3 years ago when petrol was around 86c p/l!!) for mixed driving but it was not massive for 2 adults and 2 small kids with all the baggage they bring!

Having been in a Honda garage recently, even just sitting in the Honda accord tells me they are light years apart in terms of interior, quality and extra's etc. As much as I would have loved to have driven it, it seemed just on asthetics to be a much higher quality of car and felt like it was in a different class compared to the Avensis.

Apart from that - as boring as it is, current car is a (petrol) Mondeo which does just the job really well for what its needed to do as a good steady family car but not very exciting in the great scheme of things

Think you'll feel a major difference between the Avensis and Honda personally and having had 2 Nissans in the past would not be very enthusiatic about the Primera.

unkel

jayok wrote:

2. 530D - great car but 1109 for tax!! :eek:

A couple hundred more or less in tax per year is completely irrelevant when you'r looking at €15000 per year for fuel, depreciation and interest alone. Think about it

damo605 wrote:

take into account the terrible reliability of BMWs and how much they cost to keep going

Where do people get this from?

BMWs are generally very reliable as shows from all surveys etc. (see 2005 J.D.Power). What's your source? :rolleyes:

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

The all new IS200 will be available with a 2.2 D4D diesel engine towards the end of the year.

Yeah either this one or it's sibling the Avensis would probably give you very reliable, relatively low cost motoring over many years and lots of miles. Can you live with an Avensis though?

eljono

I think the Accord is the one to go for. Great engine, spec, looks and reputation (mechanically + reliability wise). Since you have a Civic you would find it easy to move in to an Accord. Plus you would probably getter a better trade in price for the Civic if you bring it to a Honda garage.
I'm a big fan of Honda and think that they're quite underrated in this country.
It's just a pity that your Type-R has to go. Smashing car, I'd give my left goolie for one.

bazz26

Well I have the current model Avensis for the last two years and it has just reached the 50k mile mark without any problems and still 12 months left on the warranty. Cannot speak for the diesel version but the petrol version is very well built, comfortable and solid on the road. Will be looking at diesel when I am trading and will definately check out a used Accord diesel.

unkel

eljono wrote:

Since you have a Civic you would find it easy to move in to an Accord. Plus you would probably getter a better trade in price for the Civic if you bring it to a Honda garage

Good point. You might as well test drive most of the cars in your shortlist to see what you like. Read loads of reviews / tests as well and estimate the annual total costs before you decide

jayok

Hi All,

This discussion has been really helpful and I think I'm going to shorten the test-drive list to the following:

1. Accord
2. Avensis
3. Mondeo
4. 320D (for the craic)



Need to work out the math for purchase price, mpg and taxes for each and see simply which I prefer.

As for trade-in prices the dealers will sell you anything these days. So I could trade-in the Civic to a Honda dealer and purchase the Toyota off them also. Of course the servicing will be done by a Toyota dealer.

Now, off to book me some test drives

Shane Smith

I have 96' Mondeo Turbo Diesel...if I don't go crazy on the turbo charge I would get over 400 miles on a full tank (usually costs about €60 to fill, people have told me this is a fairly large tank???)

Despite what people have said here about it being "agricultural" etc etc well I suppose it is a bit noisy but I would have no complaints with the drive itself (I do a lot of commercial mileage so it gets well used trust me)

Tax is €484 annually, feels very light on the diesel and very large boot space. Worth a look I'd say....