Digital TV system to be tested in Dublin

Mike 1972

Supplying UK terrestrials will be the downfall of any DTT.

Why ?

Why bother if your just plan to rebroadcast UK TV?

Because
1) Parts of Ireland have free access to UK terrestrials other places have to pay through the nose (if they can access them at all)
UK terrestrials are the main selling point for multichannel in Ireland (even to an extent with $ky)

I don't think TV3 would be to happy with ITV on DTT in Ireland.

1) Let them eat cake
2) Given the choice between watching the same programme on "ITV Southern Ireland" (which is what TV3 is effectively becoming) and "ITV UK" the majority of people in the Republic will go for their "home" ITV region Same as people still seem to watch watch BBC produced programmes on RTE even when the programmes are available (without ads) on BBC to a large majority of RTE viewers. Otherwise it would hardly be worth RTE's while buying these programmes for the sake of a small minority of viewers who dont have BBC

The few households that do not have subsriptions to any service provider i.e. NTL and Sky should be given a FTA box from RTÉ, just even for reception purposes to begin with.

Given that RTE dont seem to be able to afford a network of DTT or DAB transmitters how do you expect them to spend licencers payers money on buying up tens of thousands of digital RECIEVERS as well ?

Each of the Service providers should under the law provide all FTA DTT Channels on there services. Rather then trying to get people who already have Digital TV to pick up FTA DTT

Ummmmm I think youll find that NTL and Chorus are ALREADY obliged to carry RTE TV3 and TG4 on their cable networks (and TV3 on MMDS for some bizarre reason)

a FTA (sic) card should also be provided by Chorus, NTL and Sky for use on there (sic) set top boxes and if people what to pay more for their services let them.

Why should NTL and Chorus provide free transmission to RTE (especially when RTE arent even prepared to invest in their own digital network) ? And how does one force a company operating out of the UK to carry Irish channels

We need to start trying to keep advertising money in Ireland

I think youll find that the European Union (and possibly the WTO) would take a very dim view of any such attempt

Elmo

Why ?

We need to start trying to keep advertising money in Ireland. Money which would be taxed. Money that should go towards employing people in the industry.

1) Let them eat cake

indeed

Given that RTE dont seem to be able to afford a network of DTT or DAB transmitters how do you expect them to spend licencers payers money on buying up tens of thousands of digital RECIEVERS as well ?

IMO when RTE sold Cablelink they should have provide this service. But then I am sure 135,000,000 they got is gone now.

Ummmmm I think youll find that NTL and Chorus are ALREADY obliged to carry RTE TV3 and TG4 on their cable networks (and TV3 on MMDS for some bizarre reason)

I know thats why i think it should be the same for any extra DTT channels that Ireland can provide.

Why should NTL and Chorus provide free transmission to RTE (especially when RTE arent even prepared to invest in their own digital network) ? And how does one force a company operating out of the UK to carry Irish channels

NTL, Chorus and Sky. RTÉ network is capable of going digital the government is stalling because they wanted RTÉ to sell the network (no buyers) and IT's TV was happening. RTÉ idea of DIGCO part owned by RTÉ was a non starter because of the governments stance on selling the network.

I think youll find that the European Union (and possibly the WTO) would take a very dim view of any such attempt

The EU's policy on Television without frountier works very well in Ireland. Indeed TV3's (Thats ITV Eire) can hide behind there requirement of providing 50% programming from the EU. And they have the nerve to complain about it when all of that 50% comes from ITV and the UK and is alway the top of the charts.

We are possiblely the only country in the EU that allows 60,000,000 euros go untaxed and allows it to be taxed in another country.

BBC produced programmes on RTE even when the programmes are available (without ads) on BBC to a large majority of RTE viewers. Otherwise it would hardly be worth RTE's while buying these programmes for the sake of a small minority of viewers who dont have BBC

By this i assume you mean EastEnders, indeed you put something on RTÉ one and people watch it. Just like when RTÉ One started showing Coronation Street back in 1992.

I total disagree with RTE promoting British soap it is not good for them, they deserved what they got when TV3 got Coronation Street.

marclt

"Mr Dempsey said the availability of analogue televisions and equipment would shortly become scarce and prices of analogue equipment would then begin to rise sharply.


SCARCE! I can't see that happening yet! There's lots of cheap analogue sets on the market... so why would it become scarce... I mean there's no need for DTT equipment in Ireland yet, there are no DTT services yet *with exception of border areas*.

The whole Its TV process was bungled.. sometimes you have to relent to let things proceed... sure ITV digital was a mess... it was built on a financial deal with the premier league... a deal which probably would never had occurred in an Irish setting anyway.

Regardless of the penetration of Sky and Cable, you'll find people will take up a free to air dtt solution... Freeview is far outselling Sky in the UK and beats the cable tv companies despite their really cheap deals on broadband, tv and telephone packages. When you consider Analogue switch off, and you're going to have to get tv to the 3 or 4 other tv sets in the house.. then you're going to upgrade them the cheapest way possible... which wont mean additional sky boxes with additional sky subscriptions.

Perhaps the trial should take place on a transmitter which has lots of relays... then at least they can test how robust the signal is... Wasn't the idea that you could pick up the signal on an indoor aerial? Will this still be the case? I didn't see any mention of tech spec for the process.

Not trying to sound negative of the announcement, I just think the process could have been a lot quicker! Good luck to it!

byte

I'm not totally sure about it working on an indoor aerial. Only where signals are strong will this work. If rumours about Irish DTT to be on VHF are true (quite possible) it'll have a potentially bigger field of coverage than via UHF as VHF carries better over long distances (maybe this is what they're thinking?).

I for one, would be happy to see some sort of DTT service running, and would definitely get an STB for watching, despite having Sky. But then, I likes teh gadgets!

byrnefm

byte wrote:

If rumours about Irish DTT to be on VHF are true

One of comreg's documents about digital radio mentions VHF as the possible medium for broadcasting radio & TV digitally as there is enough bandwidth to cover it all.

I for one, would be happy to see some sort of DTT service running, and would definitely get an STB for watching, despite having Sky. But then, I likes the gadgets!

Me too

Capt'n Midnight

byte wrote:

If rumours about Irish DTT to be on VHF are true (quite possible)

hope so , also would improve reception in areas where it is poor at the moment because digital signals wouldn't suffer as much from ghosting etc. provided of course they use similar transmitter power as at present ( and that may help people on an island to the east to pick us up.

a bientot

The interview with Minister, recorded eight days ago) was aired this morning (delayed due to analysis of coverage of pope's death last Sunday) ....the test announcement will be made within six weeks...it will last up to two years, if I understood correctly and analogue will be switched off at the same time as in most other Union countries. No specific mention of digital in any other country such as the U.K. or France where it began on 31 March having acknowledged that they had learnt a lot from the U.K's mistakes.
Interview will be repeated tonight at 22h (first item) and by the way, Hector O was also interviewed on the same programme, Mediamatters.

DMC

I listened to that interview, and what it did confirm to me was that FINALLY something is going to happen. And he is looking after the North East too (his constituents!) What I will also say, is that, looking back, in hindsight, now is the right time for DTT to start to appear. It took the UK two attempts to get DTT right, and when IT'sTV was proposed, it was during the technology downturn and the problems that OnDigital/ITV Digital had, and NTL's woes.

If it is going to happen now, best get it right first time. I'm not saying that a Dublin/North East is the right test bed, but its where the population are.

Happy days ahead.

byrnefm

If it were to be tested on band III, does anyone know if the new Hauppauge WinTV NOVA-T USB2 covers VHF as well as UHF? I can't find any specs on it (nor for its other DVB tuners). It's a neat little unit, sizewise!

Velcrow

Had a quick look over this thread...

Can someone explain if the new digital service for ireland comes via satellite or over wires.

If on satellite can I use the same "free to air" box and dish I have for the bbc channels

thanks

Mossy Monk

it will over neither satellite or wires

it will come through your television aerial (Digital Terrestrial Television)

DMC

And the other big hint was that this is in the Terrestrial board....

Telefís

DMC, what did Dermot sat about the North East (I having a vested interest )
Is the trial covering just Dublin and the North East?

Anyone know how it's going to operate - i.e the making availabe of suitable set-tops?

Velcrow

Cheers Mossy, I should have "RTFM"

DMC wrote:

And the other big hint was that this is in the Terrestrial board....

Thanks DMC - comments like that really encourage people to post replies

Antenna

Velcrow wrote:

Had a quick look over this thread...

Can someone explain if the new digital service for ireland comes via satellite or over wires.

neither, it will be via a UHF TV aerial - however the type you might already have installed for analogue terrestrial may not be the right 'group' for DTT in many areas of the country so you'd have to get a different one.

For example Mt Leinster (South East of the country) DTT is planned to be in Group B - not Group A which is what is the case for analogue - so unless viewers are using a wideband UHF aerial (very few) - they will have to get a new aerial, greatly adding to the cost of installing DTT !

Even in areas where DTT and analogue are in the same 'group' many people will have to fork out for a higher gain UHF aerial to have reliable DTT reception.

Velcrow wrote:

If on satellite can I use the same "free to air" box and dish I have for the bbc channels

thanks

NO - unless dual DTT and satellite boxes become available here in the future!

Obviously if Irish channels went FTA on satellite you would be able to receive them on your existing box, but no sign of that happening at the moment

However if they are serious about switching-off analogue - Irish channels being either FTA or FTV on satellite is something that will have to be seriously looked at. If people in the UK and other countries have no or erratic DTT reception when analogue switch-off happens they have free satellite to fall back on for their domestic channels- but over here if people have no or erratic DTT reception when analogue switch-off happens, as things stand, they will have to subscibe the Sky or Chorus/NTL (if available) just to receive Irish channels!

Elmo

Can we go out a get an ariel that will provide us with access to the tests?

How much do they cost? And where can we get them? Will we need a set top box?

Antenna

Elmo wrote:

Can we go out a get an ariel that will provide us with access to the tests?
How much do they cost? And where can we get them? Will we need a set top box?

The cost of the aerial depends on how strong the signal is where you are, a very cheap aerial could do if you have line of sight with the transmitter.

You will need a settop box - ones for satellite, digital cable/MMDS will not do.
they are not generally for sale in this country yet

Charles Slane

Is anything known yet about the transmission standards that will be used ? For example, would a UK freeview box coupled with a suitable aerial work ? Or are we going to use a system that's not compatible with KK boxes ?

I also wonder what kind of aerial you'd need for reception in Dublin (with a good reception on analogue from rabbit ears). In the UK a lot of people had to have aerials installed to receive terrestrial digital, will we have the same scenario here?

So many questions ... I guess all will be revealed ... hopefully soon.

lawhec

Even in areas where DTT and analogue are in the same 'group' many people will have to fork out for a higher gain UHF aerial to have reliable DTT reception.

If the main stations as promised pump out 50kW ERP per multiplex I don't think too many UHF aerials in group will need changing!

I have a list somewhere of the DTT allocations for each transmitter in the Republic planeed for DTT, I'll print it out later.

lawhec

Charles Slane wrote:

Is anything known yet about the transmission standards that will be used ? For example, would a UK freeview box coupled with a suitable aerial work ? Or are we going to use a system that's not compatible with KK boxes ?

I also wonder what kind of aerial you'd need for reception in Dublin (with a good reception on analogue from rabbit ears). In the UK a lot of people had to have aerials installed to receive terrestrial digital, will we have the same scenario here?

So many questions ... I guess all will be revealed ... hopefully soon.

The provisional standards set for DTT in the Republic call for a transmission system using MPEG-2, with parameters of 64QAM, 8K mode FEC and guard interval unknown. The majority of STBs that have been on sale in the UK for about the last three years should be OK although they may not be able to decode interactive services if MHP is used instead of MHEG.

For Dublin the multiplexes from Three Rock have a planned ERP of 10kW and Kippure 50kW (The multiplexes from Divis are no more than 3kW, most 2.3kW, Limavady is just 800W and Brougher Mountain is 500W!), I remember reading a story of RTÉ conducting a test from Three-Rock on Channel 26 and demonstrating on an IDTV, reported to be excellent with just a stub aerial.

Charles Slane

Thanks Northern Correspondent ! Very informative !

I'd consider picking up a Freeview box in the UK for test-checking .....

weehamster

I remember reading a story of RTÉ conducting a test from Three-Rock on Channel 26 and demonstrating on an IDTV, reported to be excellent with just a stub aerial.

This is true, however this was a quick test and was a very powerful signal and was not offically approved by the regulator (ie RTE just simply turned on the transmitter and wacked up the signal, far above what what the regulator would allow)

Antenna

Antenna wrote:

For example Mt Leinster (South East of the country) DTT is planned to be in Group B - not Group A which is what is the case for analogue - so unless viewers are using a wideband UHF aerial (very few) - they will have to get a new aerial, greatly adding to the cost of installing DTT !

Not necessarally as many in this area will have a group B or a grid wideband already for presely.

DMC

Charles Slane wrote:

I'd consider picking up a Freeview box in the UK for test-checking .....

Guess what I've done!

DMC

RTE wrote:

DMC, what did Dermot sat about the North East (I having a vested interest )
Is the trial covering just Dublin and the North East?

Minister Noel Dempsey did mention that the trial will cover Dublin and the North East. That's all he said, and it wasn't pushed on air as to why or why not (as Newstalk is a Dublin station.)

Charles Slane

DMC wrote:

Guess what I've done!

You realise that we'll be expecting up-to-the-second reports on any activity over the coming weeks ?! Your life will now be dedicated to testing and reporting, testing and reporting .....

DMC

byrnefm wrote:

If it were to be tested on band III, does anyone know if the new Hauppauge WinTV NOVA-T USB2 covers VHF as well as UHF? I can't find any specs on it (nor for its other DVB tuners). It's a neat little unit, sizewise!

I missed this last time, sorry.
Any plans for frequencies to be used for DTT here (and they date back to 1998!) show only UHF for DTT in Ireland, so no to Band III.

Charles Slane wrote:

You realise that we'll be expecting up-to-the-second reports on any activity over the coming weeks ?! Your life will now be dedicated to testing and reporting, testing and reporting .....

I'm not expecting anything before year end. Announcement within six weeks, but the start of the tests, according to Dempsey last week on Newstalk, is before the end of the year. We'll see.

Telefís

Interesting times.

Thanks DMC - still can't used to Noel being Min for Communications

DMC

Raped from Richie Logue's site..... http://www.irish-tv.com/digital.asp
These were the plans for DTT transmission......

Transmitter 	Mux 1 	Mux 2 	Mux 3 	Mux 4 	Mux 5 	Mux 6 	ERP  	Polarisation 	Area Served
Kippure 	22 	25 	28 	32 	48 	67 	50kW 	H 	Wicklow
Three Rock 	41 	44 	47 	51 	23 	26 	10kW 	H 	Greater Dublin
Clermont Carn 	53 	57 	60 	63 	30 	34 	25kW 	V 	North East

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.irish-tv.com/digital.asp

RTÉ tested the wireless return path (which means that there would be no need to plug the digibox into a phone line).