Battlestar Galactica, episode 8: "Flesh and Bone"

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

It was great!

maybe the cylons are letting the fleet survive because they know it will find earth and they want to find earth to wipe out all of humanity?

like umm..john lee (?) said to starbuck.. they will find kobol, and it will lead them to earth?

maybe they're counting on that..

Fenster

It was okay...

More on the dream sequence: It was hard to make out, but El Presidente was being hunted by Galactica's marines and Lee helped her dodge them. Make of that what you will...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

It was great!

see now.. I'm not sure if I should read that, because I don't know if it relates to this episode or another future one..

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Fenster wrote:

More on the dream sequence: It was hard to make out, but El Presidente was being hunted by Galactica's marines and Lee helped her dodge them. Make of that what you will...

With regards to that....

That's what i couldn't understand....

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Mordeth wrote:

see now.. I'm not sure if I should read that, because I don't know if it relates to this episode or another future one..

Actually....there is no need to spoiler tag anything on this thread that relates to the episode....only future storylines/episodes that maybe known by certain posters....

perhaps syke was kinda right...

Fenster

It was okay...

Ruggie, read the spoiler thread if you want more on the dream.

RuggieBear

It was okay...

Fenster wrote:

Ruggie, read the spoiler thread if you want more on the dream.

get ye back satan.......don't go tempting me :eek:

Fenster

It was okay...

Well there's not much I can say here as this episode reeked of the cryptic hints so beloved of JMS

MisterAnarchy

It was crap!

I dont like this foreseeing of the future lark at all.
Bit silly.

ixoy

It was okay...

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I dont like this foreseeing of the future lark at all.
Bit silly.

Neither do I but maybe it's not what it seems. If we say the Prez is a Cylon, then we can theorize that they planted the idea in her to space him. That way it's no coincidence...

Calibos

It was okay...

Have we seen incontravertable evidence for 'The link' or are we just taking the cylons word for it??

Something Starbuck said to Oben plus all the 'God fearing Cylons' malarkey has got me thinking. Oben told her that torture and pain couldn't make him talk or words to that effect. She mentioned 'the link'. ie that he couldn't be 100% certain that they weren't too far away from the rest of the cylons for the link to work. That the fear of the possibilty that his conciousness could be lost rather than transferred intact into a new body ie that he would 'really' die, would make him talk. Thus threat of drowning was an efeective torture method.

What am I on about?? I wonder is there a central Cylon Computer, ie the real brains of the Cylons. The robotic models are pure machines merely programmed but not artificially intelligent. The main cylon intelligence needs autonomous cylons capable of a certain degree of autonomous operation and decision making ie AI. Problem is AI's have a nasty habit of contemplating their own existence and getting locked into a feedback loop if left completely to their own devices. So the Central Cylon intelligence had the brainwave of talking a leaf out of the human book, and programming the autonomus 'human' cylon models with a belief in God and a belief that when they die their conciousness would miraculously be transferred acrosss the cosmos into a new body. (remember human cylons are pure flesh and bone. If they had a transmitter in their skull to transmit their conciousness, then baltars cylon detecter would only have to be a metal detector or x-ray machine)

Could these God fearing cylons be akin to kryten in Red Dwarf scoffing at lister and rimmers belief in human heaven as merely a delusion to prevent humans going mad while at the same time paradoxically believing in a robot heaven himself (because his human creators programmed him to believe in Robot heaven to prevent all the robots and toasters going mad)

Am I onto something I wonder?? Although I do like a previous posters idea about the christians and the Romans. I think I remember backround info on TOS calling it wagon train to the stars but also the writers drawing analogies/inspiration with adama/moses leading the israelites from eqypt etc etc. Seems plausible the re-imagining for the new series might also draw analogies/inspiration from a 'different' part of the bible.

irishman_abroad

It was okay...

c0y0te wrote:

The Incomprehensible:-

Ice Ice Baby - So, as wonderful as the scene with Adama in the morgue was.. can anyone explain to me where the hell the body came from? By my count, the first time they encountered this cylon mutt it was on the space station, where they left him behind to rot. The second time was onboard BSG, where he blew himself into itty bitty pieces. The third time was tonights ep where he was locked into a cell with Starbuck.....so.... what the hell is the story with the frozen dude? Where did he come from?


c0y0te

This guy is the one who was on the station before the crew got there. He was the one who got caught with adama after the explosion. He is a different model to the press/bomb guy.


Is it just me or was Caprica Boomer told to stay where they were while the Cylons set up the cabin for them, only for her to sprint back - having flashes of how much Helo loves her - and then run away?

Why isint Galactica Boomer in the Brig right now? Granted Gaius had to tell her she was human while she was there in front of him, but once she was gone why did he not get on the batphone to the bridge?

c0y0te

It was great!

OK so that means we have seen exactly how many models out of the 12 so far....?

1) Six
2) Guy on space station who is now in freezer in morgue
3) Bomber dude
4) Boomer
5) ???

c0y0te

ixoy

It was okay...

irishman_abroad wrote:

Granted Gaius had to tell her she was human while she was there in front of him, but once she was gone why did he not get on the batphone to the bridge?

He's scared. He doesn't know what may happen if he reveals Boomer is a Cylon. Maybe Boomer will know what Gaius did, for example, and threaten him. Remember Gaius is a complete coward and isn't going to risk his skin (at least not until a pivotal episode).

irishman_abroad

It was okay...

Yeah but if he finds the Cylon then he's the hero and theres no threat to him if shes locked up.

Scruff

It was crap!

nah, dont think el presidentae is a cylon, the dreams are a result of her Kabala stuff that she is doing tho cure her of her cancer. Was it not supposed to involve some new age medicne and meditating or something?

Thought the scene towards the end where starbuck walked up to the glass and put her had up against the cylons in front of everybody was a load of poo

Also thought the president was great in her good cop bad cop routine and then blew him outa the airlock anyway. I honestly thought they keep him alive long enough to test Baltar's cylon detector to make sure it worked.

oh and does anyone at all have episode 7 recorded or downloaded????? i still havent managed to get it. Bloody sys admins not liking p2p software and the like

[mod-edit] I removed spoiler tags. Was all episode related so no requirement.[/mod-edit]

irishman_abroad

It was okay...

PS can everyone stop using spoiler tags when talking about this episode please

Peace

It was okay...

A great ep...

Interesting to see Planet Boomer doing a legger. I think she knows Helo will never buy yet another hide out with power electricity and medecine... I wonder what will be done with them and how she'll explain to Helo why they have to run faster than before!

Blowing the guy out of the airlock was a mistake. They would more than likely never get any useful information out of him but they should have conducted experiments on him and at the very least use him as a control test on the cylon detector.

I wonder how his revelation about adama being a cylon will affect the relationship between el presidento and adama. Just when it was starting to get on track between them a spanner in the works.

Baltar should have ratted Galactic boomer out as soon as she left the room. This would have gained him serious street rep with the military.

The bit about finding Kobol and then finding Earth.... didn't adama make it up? How can they find a made up planet?

Ivan

It was great!

Voted amazing. Second episode in a row, that got that rating for me. Am I becoming easier to please?

I must admit, I love it when writers leave little clues throughout a series for us to pick up on. And for later on, when we know exactly what they are talking about, we can look back and go... "Ah, how cool is that?" ala. JMS and B5.

However, then you have the whole matrix reloaded problem. Where people make assumptions which make the whole storyline seem really damn good, but then unfortunately the writers had something entirely different in mind, which just seems to be **** in comparison. So for the record, I shall be staying spoiler free.

So much so, that I think I'm going to be walking out of the room at the start of each episode, as they play snippets from the rest of the episode in a few seconds at the beginning.

Anyway, as for the episode I thought it was great. This was cemented by the very gritty Starbuck interogation. The insights she displayed into reading the cylon. Trying to trip him up by logic. Either he told her what she needed to know, or cheat, disable your pain receptors. And lose to her anyway. Very remarkable.

Despite all this he remains calm, continues to throw in lies mixed with truths, as Adama put it. Made for some very intense stuff. Excellent.

One other thing, did anyone catch the reference with Boomer?
She claims to be from Troy.
Wooden horse of Troy, anyone?

I laughed, while everyone around me thought I was going crazy.
Another excellent hilarious moment was when Gaius explained to cylon boomer that it was either green or red. Then when its red, he tells her he is just "interpolating" the results. To which she replies, I thought it was just red or green. Which brings the inevitable and characteristic Gaius reply; Well, its a bit more complicated than that.

Anyway, when the cylon said to the president that Adama was a cylon, I couldnt help but think back to what Adama said originally, about him telling lies mixed with truths. And I naturally suspected, that in fact its the president that is the cylon. This is made even more clear by the dreams she had. But that would seem too obvious so...

I'm just going to have to leave it at that.

amen

It was crap!

you asked how many out of the 12 models
I took that to mean there were only 12 physical cyclons that looked human
in the mini series when the cyclons come to the Ragnor docking station if
you count there are 11 cyclons on screen with one missing (adma fought and killed it)

I think there are now only 9 human like cyclons left

ishmael whale

David Stewart wrote:

I'm wondering, therefore, if the writers are drawing upon the history of Christianity in the time of the Roman Empire as inspiration with the Cylons cast in the part of the Christians.

I think there are a few different influences behind the cylon religious theme. To the extent that the humans have a polytheistic religion and the cylons are monotheists, the cylon religion is closer to Christianity while the human religion is more primitive.

So you could look at it two ways. The cylons are like the Europeans colonising America, with an unshakeable believe in that it is their manifest destiny. However, given that the human civilisation they are replacing is technological this is not completely comparable – other than in the sense of the cylons believing they have an absolute right to occupy the universe.

The second influence is more contemporary, and simply comes from the resurgence of Islam. This might inspire a vision of a struggle between religious zealots and a civilisation they see as decadent and corrupt (recall Adama’s speech at the decommissioning ceremony where he expresses doubts about the nature of the human civilisation).

I don’t think BSG sets out to be an allegory for either of these things – but I think the scenario is influenced by both.

http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/manifestdestiny.html

http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2deng.html

Peace

It was okay...

amen wrote:

you asked how many out of the 12 models
I took that to mean there were only 12 physical cyclons that looked human
in the mini series when the cyclons come to the Ragnor docking station if
you count there are 11 cyclons on screen with one missing (adma fought and killed it)

I think there are now only 9 human like cyclons left

There are 12 cylon models. There can be many copies of the same model.

Ivan

It was great!

ishmael whale wrote:

I think there are a few different influences behind the cylon religious theme. To the extent that the humans have a polytheistic religion and the cylons are monotheists, the cylon religion is closer to Christianity while the human religion is more primitive.

So you could look at it two ways. The cylons are like the Europeans colonising America, with an unshakeable believe in that it is their manifest destiny. However, given that the human civilisation they are replacing is technological this is not completely comparable – other than in the sense of the cylons believing they have an absolute right to occupy the universe.

The second influence is more contemporary, and simply comes from the resurgence of Islam. This might inspire a vision of a struggle between religious zealots and a civilisation they see as decadent and corrupt (recall Adama’s speech at the decommissioning ceremony where he expresses doubts about the nature of the human civilisation).

I don’t think BSG sets out to be an allegory for either of these things – but I think the scenario is influenced by both.

http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/manifestdestiny.html

http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/dialogues/prelude/manifest/d2deng.html

You are just way too political for my tastes.

And since when did a polytheistic religion = more primitive?

Brerrabbit

It was great!

When lee whats his face spoke to the presdent he didn't say which adama was the cylon, might be apollo? (Or he could just be winding everyone up ? )

Excellent ep; the prez flushing lee out an airlock was pretty brutal and came as a surprise (A bit out of character though?)

Yeah it was galactica marines chasing the president in the dream sequence, very curious. (Dont have a clue what it portends but very curious)

whoever mentioned the matrix and writers not having a clue (sorry to lazy to go back and quote :rolleyes: ; I really really hope not, that would suck bum though the writing so far has been top notch so hopefully it will continue that way and any silly matrix-like streams of story sputum will be avoided.

secret_squirrel

It was crap!

worst ep yet imo - it only got an ok from me. Too many inconsistencies. Too many bits and pieces thrown into the mix.

Liked borderline psycho starbuck and the hints about abuse in her family background. - How did the cylon know this?

Overall liked the mindgames but threw the cylon his life away awfully easily just to plant a few doubts in el presidente's mind. Especially if he wasnt sure if his consciousness would make it back?

Karala treatment - was expecting the prez's treatment to be bigger plot thread than this. One minute they are scouring the fleet for it - the next she has a big enough supply of this magical substance to OD (prev ep). But maybe its this stuff thats causing her dreams?

And Dr G - why didnt he wait til boomer left then get her ass arrested??? Made no sense - even by his loony standards.

Begining to get annoyed about just how many cylons there are in the fleet tbh - almost averaging 1 an ep at this stage. Cant believe that there could be that many more. Its getting old and and a tiresome plot device at this stage.

Quick fleet cylon count :
2xSix
2x Lee (ok one was at the depot)
2x PR Guy/Suicide Bomber.
1x Boomer.

Thats 7 in 8 eps ffs!

TCamen

It was great!

Ok, so I skipped to the end of the thread to post my review-- hate watchin' the show a day later than everyone else!!

Anyways, I'm gonna have to watch this one again, definitely my favourite episode since '33 Minutes'. It really reminded me of Babylon 5 'Signs and Portents'... nothing terribly action-y, but LOTS of intruiging stuff, and LOTS of great acting

Starbuck's character got a lot of development, from the abusive mother revelation (which was nicely hinted at in the beginning of the ep when Adama asked her to interrogate Lee). I thought Katee Sackhoff's acting was top notch, especially her reaction to Lee when he talked about her 'damaged goods' view of herself. Her religious beliefs have also been mentioned before, most noticeably when she was stranded on the planet and prayed to be saved. All in all, I loved Starbuck in this episode.

President Roslin had some great scenes too, and the dream sequences were brilliant, especially the one at the beginning in the forest. The symmetry @ the end with Lee flying out the airlock was a nice touch. Her apology and pandering to Lee got me a bit riled up, so I loved when she came out with "Put him in the airlock"!
I'm not sure I think she's a Cylon, but she's definitely a bit loopy on that medication!

Gaius, as usual, was on top form. The trio of Baltar, Six & Boomer in the lab was excellently played. I think Six's barely contained contempt/dislike for Boomer, either on Galactica or Caprica is fun to watch. Baltar's fumbling with the results screen was hilarious, but at the same time, I really felt like Boomer could and would, run & snap his neck if he told her she was a Cylon!

I really enjoyed the short & sweet trip to Caprica again this week. C-Boomer, even though she's fully aware she's a Cylon, still has a great ability to look doe-eyed and weak. The swing set bit with Six & Doral-- again, I really like Six's vemon towards Boomer, it's great!

Lee was a lot better this time, compared to his appearance in the miniseries. He had a quiet menace to him that worked really well in the interrogation scenes, and his "truths" were VERY entertaining. That he admitted to Starbuck about being too far away to download his consciousness into a new body was a nice little tidbit, whether it's true or not! His talk of repeating cycles, religion and that the fleet will find Kobol, and ultimately Earth....AND then to top it off with telling Roslin that Adama is a Cylon....

Who ISN'T dying to see the last five episodes right now?!

The undercurrent of danger in the whole episode was brilliant; from the potential nuclear bomb, to Lee in the interrogation, to Boomer in the lab, to the scenes on Caprica, and even when Adama was in the morgue-- there was just this sense that anything could happen. Plus with the revelations (that may all turn out to be lies), easily the best episode since the season opener!

PS- At least we got a token Apollo appearance even if he wasn't important to the episode...

Ivan

It was great!

TCamen wrote:

Ok, so I skipped to the end of the thread to post my review-- hate watchin' the show a day later than everyone else!!

Anyways, I'm gonna have to watch this one again, definitely my favourite episode since '33 Minutes'. It really reminded me of Babylon 5 'Signs and Portents'... nothing terribly action-y, but LOTS of intruiging stuff, and LOTS of great acting

Starbuck's character got a lot of development, from the abusive mother revelation (which was nicely hinted at in the beginning of the ep when Adama asked her to interrogate Lee). I thought Katee Sackhoff's acting was top notch, especially her reaction to Lee when he talked about her 'damaged goods' view of herself. Her religious beliefs have also been mentioned before, most noticeably when she was stranded on the planet and prayed to be saved. All in all, I loved Starbuck in this episode.

President Roslin had some great scenes too, and the dream sequences were brilliant, especially the one at the beginning in the forest. The symmetry @ the end with Lee flying out the airlock was a nice touch. Her apology and pandering to Lee got me a bit riled up, so I loved when she came out with "Put him in the airlock"!
I'm not sure I think she's a Cylon, but she's definitely a bit loopy on that medication!

Gaius, as usual, was on top form. The trio of Baltar, Six & Boomer in the lab was excellently played. I think Six's barely contained contempt/dislike for Boomer, either on Galactica or Caprica is fun to watch. Baltar's fumbling with the results screen was hilarious, but at the same time, I really felt like Boomer could and would, run & snap his neck if he told her she was a Cylon!

I really enjoyed the short & sweet trip to Caprica again this week. C-Boomer, even though she's fully aware she's a Cylon, still has a great ability to look doe-eyed and weak. The swing set bit with Six & Doral-- again, I really like Six's vemon towards Boomer, it's great!

Lee was a lot better this time, compared to his appearance in the miniseries. He had a quiet menace to him that worked really well in the interrogation scenes, and his "truths" were VERY entertaining. That he admitted to Starbuck about being too far away to download his consciousness into a new body was a nice little tidbit, whether it's true or not! His talk of repeating cycles, religion and that the fleet will find Kobol, and ultimately Earth....AND then to top it off with telling Roslin that Adama is a Cylon....

Who ISN'T dying to see the last five episodes right now?!

The undercurrent of danger in the whole episode was brilliant; from the potential nuclear bomb, to Lee in the interrogation, to Boomer in the lab, to the scenes on Caprica, and even when Adama was in the morgue-- there was just this sense that anything could happen. Plus with the revelations (that may all turn out to be lies), easily the best episode since the season opener!

PS- At least we got a token Apollo appearance even if he wasn't important to the episode...

Best review ever.

Basically sums up what I was trying to say.
Episode was great. Sure it wasnt action-y but there was character development along with setting the scenes for the "climactic ending".

And it was I who mentioned Matrix.
But not so much drawing an analogy between the style/quality of the Brothers' work and BSG, but more that while making assumptions is fun, it will inevitably lead to disappointment when the story doesnt pan out the way you expected it to.

c0y0te

It was great!

Congratulations people!

It looks like this episode thread has genreated (or at least will continue to generate) the most responses of all the eps to date in the series.

c0y0te

Johnny Storm

It was crap!

I don't think it was the worst episode todate but certainly not the best.

They have certainly slowed down the rate at which they were using up plot devices. It would have been impossible to continue at the pace of "33" and the one where Starbuck trains the rookie pilots without pretty much unravelling all the plot threads set up in the mini-series.

I hope they dont get themselves in an X-Files type muddle where in an effort to create a dark and confusing scenario they tie themselves in knots of self-contradictory misinformation. In other words I hope they dont put too much emphasis on torturing the charactors with a existentially bleak atmosphere where they cant find any truth at the expense of continuity and a satisfying self-consistent backstory.

Also I like the way the religious theme is being developed. I have great hopes for this aspect of the show to shock and delight.

Perhaps El Presidente has been doing the dirty with a Cylon at some time and has the same kind of chip in her brain as Balthar?

Its still the best SF TV show for a very long time.

PS howcum there's no spell checker on this board?

Mantel

secret_squirrel wrote:

And Dr G - why didnt he wait til boomer left then get her ass arrested??? Made no sense - even by his loony standards.

Gaius was a total traitor in the orignal series, perhaps they're trying to keep a bit of this in the new Gaius or it could be that chip in his head.