The 8 String "Leviathan"

Karl Hungus

Now, a lot of regulars here would know, I've been very seriously considering getting a custom made 8 String guitar from LGM, and it's looking more and more likely that I will be able to afford it (all things going to plan) in the very near future, so I've decided to post a thread about it in hope that the good people of boards will help me out on a few details I'm still unsure of.

Here's the details on the LGM LeVIIIathan

What I've decided on so far:

24 Fret
Mahogany Body
Maple Neck
Quilt Maple Top
Ebony Fretboard
Locking Tuners
2 Seymour Duncan Pickups
Tone, Volume & 3 Way Switch
Metal Pickup Rings
Black Hardware

I've had plenty of silly ideas for custom fretboard inlays, but I've settled on the idea of no fretmarkers on the fretboard face itself, just side markers. I'm nearly thinking just a plain solid black finish aswell, but this is really bugging me altogether whether or not I should get a transparent finish to show off the quilted maple, or a complete custom peice of artwork, only I don't know what that artwork would be. It really has me stumped, but at the same time, I love the minimalism of the solid black and blank ebony fretboard. So any advice here would be appreciated, as I'm just stumped.

As for the Piezo system, that's still kinda up in the air, so to speak, but I'm not sure I want to over-complicate things too much.

Thoughts on the setup so far?
Any advice would be very helpfull.

feylya

At this moment of drunkeness, the quilted top is absolutely worthless if you get a solid colour. I heartily recommend a custom inlay. It just adds to a guitar's uniqueness imo. As for the piezo, DON'T!!! Get a seperate acoustic guitar. It'll sound better. And if you have to, you could always simulate the acoustic properties from the magnetic pickups.

Karl Hungus

feylya wrote:

At this moment of drunkeness, the quilted top is absolutely worthless if you get a solid colour. I heartily recommend a custom inlay. It just adds to a guitar's uniqueness imo. As for the piezo, DON'T!!! Get a seperate acoustic guitar. It'll sound better. And if you have to, you could always simulate the acoustic properties from the magnetic pickups.

To be honest, I'm more interested in the maple top for the tonal qualities moreso than the aesthetic qualities, although I'm certainly not going to rule out a nice trans finish.

Fair enough on the piezo.

feylya

If you're going for the maple cap merely to balance the tone, there's is no reason to have it quilted. Simple plain maple will give you the same effect.

Karl Hungus

I was of the impression that quilted was a much more rich maple, and would make a difference? Anyway, I'm still undecided about the finish, so we'll just leave it as quilted maple for now.

feylya

As long as it's rock maple, it's basically the same tone. The quilted only adds to the price and lovliness

Karl Hungus

Fair enough so...
T'will depend on whether or not I go for a solid or trans finish.

Forgot to ask in the original post, but... Fanned Frets. I don't know if LGM will do this at all, I know Conklin does, but would it really make that much of a difference at all? Reading up about the concept, it seems very interesting altogether, and although it would probably take a lot of getting used to, well so would an 8 string guitar in the first place. So a worthwhile investment?

feylya

IMVO, no. It's a nice idea, making intonation closer to perfect but your average punter won't have that sort of ear.

Karl Hungus

Are you calling me an average punter? :mad:

feylya

No. I'm talking about your audience.

Karl Hungus

Well, I'm not really thinking about whether or not they'll have the ear for it, but simply for myself, is it worth it?

feylya

Put it this way - quilted maple is only for appearance.

A maple cap is recommended.

Karl Hungus

I was talking about the fanned frets...

feylya

/me blames beer

TBH, I'd take the Buzz Feiten tuning system over the fanned frets.

Karl Hungus

Buzz Feiten tuning system?
Explain...

feylya

Basicall detuning all the frets the same about.

Explain later. me sleep now.

Karl Hungus

*BOGGLE*

Right, well I was looking at the finishes on the ESP website, and I think I found a great example of a nice trans-black finish on a quilt maple top. Check the attatchment.

Sweet.

Karl Hungus

I've found some other nice examples of trans-black finishes here and here. Thoughts?

Edit:

Actually found some more excellent examples here and here.

So far, I think this is absolutely beautiful:



I think I'm really gone on the trans-black finish now.

eoin5

reminds me of skunk anansies pants! 8 strings , soon well basically have fretted harps

Zombienosh

8 strings madness i take it its B to A ?

its got a killer look to it too, nice finishes......especially the all blacked out one.....
how much would one of these set you back?

Phil_321

8 strings! fúck me!!
Those trans black finishes are pretty cool, but I'm not gone on the obvious line along the middle of the body.

Doctor J

Perhaps put a 5 way switch in it and have 2 and 4 as coil taps - ie - single coil bridge, single coil neck? A little bit more versatility if you ever need it.

Karl Hungus

-AlcoholicA- wrote:

8 strings madness i take it its B to A ?

its got a killer look to it too, nice finishes......especially the all blacked out one.....
how much would one of these set you back?

You take it wrong... It's F# to E I believe, the 8th string is lower than B. A hell of a lot of low-end. It's going to be hard getting strings though, I'll probably have to order a bunch of Ernie Ball custom gage 70's off the internet along with a few 7 string packs.

And yeah, it does indeed look fantastic. Very nice shape, really rather metal, but not too over the top like some of the more ridiculous BC Rich models, like the Beast or Ironbird. Definetly one of the best designed guitar I've ever come across, and possible the only guitar I actually think looks good with a downwards pointing headstock.

Not exactly sure how much it's going to be altogether, but a rough estimate would be about €2500. But there's not really anyway to tell as there's no set price for the mahogany body (standard is Alder) on the site, or a few other options I want. Or for that matter how much tax I'll have to pay when it arrives.

Doctor J wrote:

Perhaps put a 5 way switch in it and have 2 and 4 as coil taps - ie - single coil bridge, single coil neck? A little bit more versatility if you ever need it.

Hmm... Now that's something I've not actually considered before. Thanks for pointing out an excellent option, I must add that to the list. Any other helpfull suggestions while you're at it, Doc?

Doctor J

Either a 5 way or maybe have a three way and use a pull/push pot on the volume and tone, vol tapping the neck, tone tapping the bridge. That way tou get the most amount of tonal varieties out of the pickups.

Personally, I'd go for maybe chrome or smoked silver hardware, something to offset the blackness of the whole thing, a bit of contrast to highlight the trans black. It's the non black parts on that Les Paul which highlight the top.

Karl Hungus

Hmm... I don't know about that now, I really do like the black, and I don't really want to offset it much at all.

Oh, and what are your thoughts on the fanned frets btw?
That is, if I can get them done.

Doctor J

As a concept I like it, but how it'd feel in practice is a different matter. You may not find it comfortable and you don't want to spend two and a half grand on something you might regret and have difficulty adjusting to.

D!ve^Bomb!

wow that's a lot of money for somethin you have never played and will not play untill its paid for and recieved!!

Have you played an 8 string before? if you haven't do you plan to.. because i know i would find it very uncomfortable..

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

As a concept I like it, but how it'd feel in practice is a different matter. You may not find it comfortable and you don't want to spend two and a half grand on something you might regret and have difficulty adjusting to.

You raise another good point, and it is a lot of money to invest, but I think that the posibility I might regret it and have difficulty adjusting is a bit of an extreme. On the other hand, reading up on the idea, it does seem to be that the more strings on a guitar, the more relevant and important a concept fanned frets is. So while it's probably something I'd never fully consider on a 6 stringer, or even 7, it does seem like something that's worth considering in depth. That is, untill I find out whether or not Jeremy would even do fanned frets in the first place.

It's really unfortunate that there'd be no opportunity for me to test out a guitar with fanned frets. Though I really can't see myself having any problems adjusting, but that's just me it seems, as I've a friend who's quite an excellent bass player altogether, yet any time he plays my 5 string he simply cannot use it whatsoever and he just says that he's used to 4 strings. Me on the other hand, when I went from my 4 string Legend to my current Warlock I didn't really need to adjust at all. I guess I'm just a pretty bendy musician, eh?

Oh, and I think the 5-way switch would be better than the pull/push pots.

Doctor J

Sometimes you've got to gamble and hope for the best. When I got my 6 string bass, I had only ever played a 5 string in a shop about 5 years ago. Going for a 6 was a gamble and it did take a bit of time to adjust. I quickly established a short strap was the only way it'd work, to get my left hand around the bulk of the neck and comfortable, though I still find playing higher not as comfortable for my right hand. Sometimes I still feel the need to play a 4. I'm certainly not as mobile on a 6 as I am on a 4. I'm getting there but I see the 6 as a different instrument to a 4, rather than just a bass with more strings. I think you'll always find yourself coming back to a 6 at times. It requires a different approach, mentally, to make the most of what it can do. This guitar is a big gamble, but that's fine, you've got to take risks to progress in everything. Just be sure you go for what you want and what you'll use, rather than try and make it the guitar to end all guitars, because I don't think there is one 'right' guitar. It's a lot of money and, if I were you, I'd ask Jeremy if you could get in contact with other people he has sold 8's to, just to get their feedback on the 8 as an instrument and their experiences with it, perhaps this might help you decide what you'll need. You're heading into different instrument territory, and what you may experience, based on playing a 6 string guitar is just speculation at this point. I'd really want to hear from people who've been there.

Doctor J

Karl Hungus wrote:

You take it wrong... It's F# to E I believe, the 8th string is lower than B.

This is a bit of a surprise. I would have thought B to A myself. TBH I can't really see the point of going this low. You're going to have difficulty finding an amp that can deal with that frequency range. Realistically you're looking at running a crossover splitting the low frequencies from the high and feeding a bass amp and a regular guitar amp, either that or a keyboard amp. I think you'd be compromising your tone either way. If you're playing the low F#, you are playing the same note as the second fret on a regularily tuned bass, you don't want that coming out of a Mesa. A low tuned bass isn't going to play the F# below that so if you're playing along with a bassist you'll both be playing the exact same notes, and kill each other's tone. I think B is plenty low myself, but it's your call.

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

Sometimes you've got to gamble and hope for the best. When I got my 6 string bass, I had only ever played a 5 string in a shop about 5 years ago. Going for a 6 was a gamble and it did take a bit of time to adjust. I quickly established a short strap was the only way it'd work, to get my left hand around the bulk of the neck and comfortable, though I still find playing higher not as comfortable for my right hand. Sometimes I still feel the need to play a 4. I'm certainly not as mobile on a 6 as I am on a 4. I'm getting there but I see the 6 as a different instrument to a 4, rather than just a bass with more strings. I think you'll always find yourself coming back to a 6 at times. It requires a different approach, mentally, to make the most of what it can do. This guitar is a big gamble, but that's fine, you've got to take risks to progress in everything. Just be sure you go for what you want and what you'll use, rather than try and make it the guitar to end all guitars, because I don't think there is one 'right' guitar. It's a lot of money and, if I were you, I'd ask Jeremy if you could get in contact with other people he has sold 8's to, just to get their feedback on the 8 as an instrument and their experiences with it, perhaps this might help you decide what you'll need. You're heading into different instrument territory, and what you may experience, based on playing a 6 string guitar is just speculation at this point. I'd really want to hear from people who've been there.

You definetly make a great point about going for what I want, and not trying to make it a guitar to end all guitars. That's certainly not what I'm trying to do at all, but in getting what's quite possibly my dream guitar, I do want to make sure it's going to be as excellent as it can be, if you get my meaning?

So, if fanned frets is something of a possibility, I'm definetly going to consider it in full, much like I've considered the piezo system in the other thread. Maybe I'll come to decide that they're unessicary, as I've come to think about the piezo now? Maybe it's not even an option and I'll just go "Oh well..."?

Something else you bring up, and I'd like to add to, is that I am indeed heading into different instrument territory, reguardless of whether or not I'm willing to make a big adjustment, there's almost no getting away from it. As such, would the fanned frets be any different or more far removed to the concept of the 8 string being a different instrument? And as you say yourself about taking a risk to progress, just reading up on the concept of fanned frets, I think it's definetly taking a step farward in the progression of guitars.

I'll definetly take your advice about seeing if I can get in contact with anyone Jeremy has done an 8 string for before, and see what happens then. Maybe I'll try and get in contact with Rusty Cooley and see what he has to say about the fanned frets? It's worth a shot.

Doctor J

Yeah, I like the idea of fanned frets and you're right, it's a huge change anyway so maybe putting the fanned frets now would be a good idea, it's gonna be a steep learning curve as is, so **** it, why not?

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

Yeah, I like the idea of fanned frets and you're right, it's a huge change anyway so maybe putting the fanned frets now would be a good idea, it's gonna be a steep learning curve as is, so **** it, why not?

Well that's sorta my view on it.
I don't think it's going to be that steep as such. I'm already doing excersizes to help me adjust more to the increased scale of the 27" neck by playing 1 3 5 7 up along each string as fast as I can. Probably a bit ahead of myself there, but it's a very good excersize I find. Aswell as that, even the increased neck is going to take getting used to, so there's going to be a lot of adjustments to be made. It's practically baritone scale.

Actually, would you have any good excersizes you could PM me later? I'm always on the look out for 'em.

Doctor J wrote:

This is a bit of a surprise. I would have thought B to A myself. TBH I can't really see the point of going this low. You're going to have difficulty finding an amp that can deal with that frequency range. Realistically you're looking at running a crossover splitting the low frequencies from the high and feeding a bass amp and a regular guitar amp, either that or a keyboard amp. I think you'd be compromising your tone either way. If you're playing the low F#, you are playing the same note as the second fret on a regularily tuned bass, you don't want that coming out of a Mesa. A low tuned bass isn't going to play the F# below that so if you're playing along with a bassist you'll both be playing the exact same notes, and kill each other's tone. I think B is plenty low myself, but it's your call.

It's the same tuning that Meshuggah use, and I don't believe they've had any problems using regular guitar amps for their 8 strings. Although as far as I know, they use Line 6. In fact, I know many people have realistically down-tuned their 7 strings from a low B to god knows what without problems. A friend of mine has a 7 that he has downtuned and cranks straight through a Marshall stack (He doesn't use pedals) without any problems whatsoever, and he also has a second guitar which he keeps in standard E tuning which he uses through the same marshall.

I don't think there'll be that much of a problem at all, but I'll obviously look into it more, and see what's the story with amps. Maybe bass amps are more suited for the additional low-end than a regular guitar amp, but isn't the standard for an 8 string bass F# - C tuning, and I don't think there's ever any problems there.

As I said though, I'll definetly look into it more.

Doctor J

You can go low with bass but you need serious equipment to be able to hear it. A decent 15" bass cab will put out maybe 30Hz to 4kHz. Human hearing starts at about 20Hz, if you've good hearing. To put this into perspective, a regular low E on a guitar is about 83Hz. Your low F# will be around 46Hz. At that level, you're really just playing bass. EQ on guitar amps isn't really designed for frequencies that low, plus you need a lot more power to drive low frequencies, it all adds up €€€

D!ve^Bomb!

plus the lower the frequency the less audible the sound.. they should have frequency response charts for amps.. i've never seen one anyway

Doctor J

newband wrote:

frequency response charts for amps.. i've never seen one anyway

Bass amps generally do, but guitar amps don't because they're generally not hovering around the borderline of practicality vs price vs audibility. One issue I see is that on a guitar amp, generally the low frequency EQ is a shelf - ie - say it starts at 150Hz, when you turn up the low end it boosts everything below 150Hz equally and that's not a big issue with a regularily tuned guitar, but you've got almost an extra octave below what's 'normal' which I don't think a guitar amp is really designed for.

Edit -> these are the controls on my Ashdown bass amp

+/-15dB @ 45Hz
+/-15dB @ 180Hz
+/-15dB @ 340Hz
+/-15dB @ 660Hz
+/-15dB @ 1.3kHz
+/-15dB @ 2.6kHz
+/-15dB @ 7kHz shelving

It's got the low frequencies in mind and offeres plenty of flexibility to add/remove to a decent degree. Many bass amps have even more control over the EQ. Your average guitar amp has just low, mid and high.

Karl Hungus

I hate to bring up Meshuggah again, as they're not a band I'm trying to emulate, ever mind being much of a fan of in the first place. But seeing as they use F# - E, and they pulled it off both in studio and live, I'm certain there's the equipment to take it. Especially considering that it's not just LGM that are offering a low F# 8 String guitar, but Ibanez, Nevborn and Conklin (I think) also offer said tuned custom guitar. Though I'm sure that Conklin mostly do B - A, and that's what Rusty Cooley plays.

I'm not disagreing with you that the right equipment will be limited, but not quite as problematic as all that. Maybe I'll need a Line6 amp to take the Leviathan, if so, I can easily snatch one up sans problemos. At a stretch, I could do something silly and run a marshall head through a bass amp? Mightn't work for the 8 string, but I think that the guitarist from tool did that (And could very well still do) to get his sound. At the least it's worth looking into.

Edit: Meshuggah do indeed use Line6... DocJ? Your thoughts on Line6?

Doctor J

Personally, I just can't really see the use of that low a note if you ever plan on playing with a bass player, you'll be playing the same notes. It'll be like having two basses and a bass drum all fighting for the same frequencies in a mix. Nasty. Given the potential use for a low F# vs a high A, I think the A would be more useful. Messuggah get away with it because they've got a sound engineer who knows their setup backwards and everything (bass tone and kick drum) is tailored to accomodate the low tuned guitar. Just listening to Nothing here, there isn't really any low end in the bass, it's just a shadow behind the guitars. They don't have that much low end in their sound. That works with what they're doing but if you were to go from that to a melodic Opeth type acoustic part for example, with those tones, and it'll sound like cold, wet gick. You roll into any venue or even studio in Ireland and they won't be able to deal with it. I shudder to think what that would sound like in Dorans You're looking at a really complicated (and very expensive) amp setup to utilise the guitar which you will have serious difficulty in using outside of practicing by yourself at home. In my experience, low A is about as low as a metal band can realistically go to without drastically and horrifically compromising their sound to suit the low, low guitar and, being honest, how often will you use the really low notes? Even then, you need someone who really knows what they're doing to engineer it so that it works and it's not just a wall of low end sludge. I mean, how many Metal albums have you heard where the bass drum, bass and low chug guitar are all muffling each other even in E? I think the F# string just isn't a practical option, given the expense (suitable amplification) and considerable inconvenice it entails. Just my opinion, I could see more functionality in an A. Even with a low B you could drop it to low A easily enough, I've done it myself in the past but it and the bass just start getting in each others way to much to make it anything other than a bit of a pain in the ass.

Karl Hungus

Hmm... This really is less than encouraging.

The 8 String is something I am really getting excited about, and the thoughts of some of the things I could do with it are quite phenominal. Seeing as it's something I'd asked around quite a bit for before, with Feylya finally introducing me to LGM where it actually looked like it was a very realistic possibility of buying it, and not something completely outrageous. I mean, just think how it would sound at some of the slow, heavy, almost droning passages of some music I'd be able to write. Makes me shiver, thinking about it. Either that, or this cold weather. I'd just love to experiment around with those kinda tones coming from a guitar.

And lets not forget just how plain COOL it would be!

So is there nothing I can do realistically about the problems you've pointed out? Would it be possible to run a guitar head through a bass amp, and it not sound like wet gick? I don't particularly want wet gick from a guitar. It'd probably kill my little pal Microcube too, which is definetly not good.

I really don't want to abandon the idea of the 8-string just yet, so any help with making it a proper possibility would be extremely helpfull indeed.

feylya

A guitar head into a bass amp? Explain...

Karl Hungus

feylya wrote:

A guitar head into a bass amp? Explain...

Bass cab even.

Could be a silly idea of course, but lets say something like this into something like this. A possibility of making all that low end work properly, without everything sounding like sludge? I dunno.

feylya

Diamond Darrell runs a Randall head into a 4x12 cab and a 2 x 15 cab. The 2 x 15 is generally a bass cab... Can be done...

Karl Hungus

Hehehehehe... "Diamond" Darrell.

So it is a distinct possiblity that some rather nifty guitar head (Doesn't have to be a Triple Rectifier of course, but it would certainly be excellent) through a bass cab would be a perfectly realistic solution to cope with the leviathan? I'm starting to get optimistic once again.

Karl Hungus

Oooh, perhaps one of these babies would be of use? Looks very nice.

Oh, and bugger that double guitar stand I'm after, one of these would be far more usefull.

Doctor J

There's nothing wrong with the 8, I'd just go for B to A instead. Notes that low, they sound better coming out of a bass, 34" scale, big fat strings, amps designed for those frequencies, it just doesn't make sense to me to try it on guitar. I mean, if someone suggested playing a 27" scale bass through a guitar amp... it just doesn't sound right. If you want notes that low, use a bass, they are bass notes. Distorted bass noted sound mushy, regardless of the amp, it's just the characteristics of low frequencies. I think a high A would be vastly more useful, practical and be much less of a compromise to the overall functionality of the instrument.

feylya

A high A? What string gauge would that be???

Doctor J

7 or 8?

feylya

Christ, that's small.

Doctor J

I think George Lynch had ESP make him a 7 string with a high A instead of a low B. It has been done.

feylya

Aye, I know it's been done. A lot of jazz players use 7's that way don't they?

Can't say I'm familiar with that model of ESP GL.

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

There's nothing wrong with the 8, I'd just go for B to A instead. Notes that low, they sound better coming out of a bass, 34" scale, big fat strings, amps designed for those frequencies, it just doesn't make sense to me to try it on guitar. I mean, if someone suggested playing a 27" scale bass through a guitar amp... it just doesn't sound right. If you want notes that low, use a bass, they are bass notes. Distorted bass noted sound mushy, regardless of the amp, it's just the characteristics of low frequencies. I think a high A would be vastly more useful, practical and be much less of a compromise to the overall functionality of the instrument.

You make it sound like I simply want the 8 string solely to chugg the low F# with some low B for variety. That's obviously not what I'm after at all, so saying "use a bass" or that it's a 27" scale bass is a little condescending. What am I going to do, use a regular E guitar, then swap to a bass half-way through a song!?

Personally, I don't see that much use I'd make of a high A at all (care to try and pitch it to me? ) so if there wasn't a low F# 8 String available, I simply wouldn't bother my arse, I'd just got for a 7 String.

Funnily enough, I tried messing about with the microcube and my bass today, just to see how it would sound, and I have to say it didn't sound too bad at all, if considerably fuzzier on the E string than through my Trace Elliot. So even just practicing with the 8 String through the microcube doesn't seem to be that much of a problem at all. Although, I'd rather not just in case, you never know, 2 hours of playing, and the speaker blows on me?! :eek:

I don't know... I'm kinda stumped again. I've an idea in my head of things I want to do with the extra low end, and it's quite exciting altogether, but at the same time, there's a nagging part of me that says you're probably right and that maybe low F# is just going to sound like wet gick? I like wet gick, but from the women, not from the guitars.