The 8 String "Leviathan"

LGM Guitars

Hi guys, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but I had an spare moment (rare these days) so I thought I'd chime in.

First off, the Tuning of F# to E was simply chosen as that is what the majority of people interested in an 8 string wanted. Having said that, if you want to go B to A, That can be done, but not on the 27" scale, you would be breaking the high A string constantly. I can build the 8 with a 25.5" scale if you want to go B to A.
Fanned frets, not something I do. The patent is owned by Novak and the licensing and royalty fee's are something that need to be contended with. For multi million dollar companies like Conklin this isn't a real problem and it may be something I look into in the future, but for the time being the fanned frets aren't in the cards. It also means using different bridges which my dealer agreements may or may not allow, I would have to find out.

As for the maple cap, unless you are wanting to do a thick maple cap the tone won't change much. The mahogany is going to be a HUGE thick sound, The maple cap should be at least 1/2" to change the sound much at all. If you were to use the EMG pickups it would be pointless as the pre-amp in the EMG's is what colors the tone, the wood will simply add sustain. However, since you're talking the SD's wood is a variable. If you want to go with a solid color you may consider a different wood all together than mahogany/maple. In all honesty, I chose the alder because it's a nice balanced wood, the 8 strings go from such low bass frequency to regular frequency that the alder is overall a very equal wood.
In terms of the range of the Low F#, yes, it is low, but most all guitar amps will handle it still without any real issues. Myself personally don't see the Low F# as just there for chugging on, same with the B on a 7 string, if you just use it for that you're missing out on the best parts of the extra strings. New Chord voicings open up with the lower strings, scale runs become bigger with less movement, 8 string sweeps are possible, basically you just increase your tonal range anywhere on the fretboard. Imagine being able to do a full 3 octave sweep without having to use more than 4 frets!

Any wood can certainly be used. Solid maple could be used if you are worried about crispness of the lower notes, it will be bright on the high end though but you can always EQ your amp to balance that a little nicer.

The 5 way switch used with the SD pickups does give coil tapping. In the first position it gives you full bridge humbucker, in 2nd position it gives you the rear coil of the bridge hum, in 3rd position it gives you the outside coils of both pickups, in 4th position you get the rear coil of the neck humbucker, and in 5th position you get the full neck humbucker.

Hope this helps with some of the questions, concerns etc. They do take some getting used to, but what a wild guitar to play!

Glad to see you guys dig the guitars so much, just for kicks, here is a pick of the latest 6 string leviathan completed, quilted maple top in a "plasma burst" (blood red to a red kandied black burst) with reverse headstock

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/leviathans/redfinished4.jpg

Jeremy

mp3guy

so, what kinda sound would you get from an 8 string?

D!ve^Bomb!

i haven't completely checked the site but is there any demos of the guitars so we could have a listen?

Karl Hungus

A fellow over at the extended range guitar forum made a very good point about string guage and pickups having a very big effect on the sound, and that the low F# wouldn't nessicerally be in bass frequencies as such. Any good high wattage cab should be more than enough, apparently.

Definetly encouraging on the side of the pro low F#!
Thoughts Doctor J?

LGM Guitars wrote:

Fanned frets, not something I do. The patent is owned by Novak and the licensing and royalty fee's are something that need to be contended with. For multi million dollar companies like Conklin this isn't a real problem and it may be something I look into in the future, but for the time being the fanned frets aren't in the cards. It also means using different bridges which my dealer agreements may or may not allow, I would have to find out.

Thanks for putting my curiostity to rest. I hope you look into it and that it works out for you. Still though, does Hipshot not do bridges to accomidate for fanned frets? I thought they would.

LGM Guitars wrote:

As for the maple cap, unless you are wanting to do a thick maple cap the tone won't change much. The mahogany is going to be a HUGE thick sound, The maple cap should be at least 1/2" to change the sound much at all. If you were to use the EMG pickups it would be pointless as the pre-amp in the EMG's is what colors the tone, the wood will simply add sustain. However, since you're talking the SD's wood is a variable. If you want to go with a solid color you may consider a different wood all together than mahogany/maple. In all honesty, I chose the alder because it's a nice balanced wood, the 8 strings go from such low bass frequency to regular frequency that the alder is overall a very equal wood.

No, I think I will definetly be going for the trans-black finish on the quilt maple. I really do want to get the rich, warm tones that the mahogany will provide also. But thanks for your advice none the less.

LGM Guitars wrote:

In terms of the range of the Low F#, yes, it is low, but most all guitar amps will handle it still without any real issues. Myself personally don't see the Low F# as just there for chugging on, same with the B on a 7 string, if you just use it for that you're missing out on the best parts of the extra strings. New Chord voicings open up with the lower strings, scale runs become bigger with less movement, 8 string sweeps are possible, basically you just increase your tonal range anywhere on the fretboard. Imagine being able to do a full 3 octave sweep without having to use more than 4 frets!

*drool*

Full sweeps across 8 strings would be amazing altogether.

LGM Guitars wrote:

The 5 way switch used with the SD pickups does give coil tapping. In the first position it gives you full bridge humbucker, in 2nd position it gives you the rear coil of the bridge hum, in 3rd position it gives you the outside coils of both pickups, in 4th position you get the rear coil of the neck humbucker, and in 5th position you get the full neck humbucker.

Hmm... No option for both full humbuckers, perhaps a different wiring, or even a 6 way switch would be an idea?

LGM Guitars wrote:

Hope this helps with some of the questions, concerns etc. They do take some getting used to, but what a wild guitar to play!

Glad to see you guys dig the guitars so much, just for kicks, here is a pick of the latest 6 string leviathan completed, quilted maple top in a "plasma burst" (blood red to a red kandied black burst) with reverse headstock

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/leviathans/redfinished4.jpg

Jeremy

Thanks very much for the feedback, Jeremy, it has been a very big help altogether. You're quite an artist altogether, but I'm not too gone on the reversed headstock on the new Leviathan there, it just doesn't seem right, especially seeing as yours is probably one of the only designs I've seen that I thought looked excellent with the downward pointing headstock.

Doctor J

Karl Hungus wrote:

A fellow over at the extended range guitar forum made a very good point about string guage and pickups having a very big effect on the sound, and that the low F# wouldn't nessicerally be in bass frequencies as such. Any good high wattage cab should be more than enough, apparently.

Definetly encouraging on the side of the pro low F#!
Thoughts Doctor J?

The fundamental of the note is F# at 42Hz, which is the same F# at 42Hz you find at the second fret of a regularily tuned bass. It won't have the low end of 34" scale bass, but it'll still be the same 42Hz. If you have a piano or keyboard at your disposal, play that F# to see what I mean. It's a bass note, I don't mean bass guitar note, I mean bass as in bass, baritone, tenor, alto, etc

This might explain it better

It's a 42Hz note. It's a note found on bass guitars, it's in the home of bass drums, it's almost a full octave below standard guitar pitch. String gauge won't make a difference apart from the tone of the note and how loose/tight it feels. If it's F# it vibrates 42 times per second, that has nothing to do with the pickups either. It's your call man, but for me it just falls to far into the grey area which has traditionally separated guitar from bass and the existing hardware which is tailored for one or the other and not both. Normal guitar speakers just aren't designed for that low a frequency.

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

The fundamental of the note is F# at 42Hz, which is the same F# at 42Hz you find at the second fret of a regularily tuned bass. It won't have the low end of 34" scale bass, but it'll still be the same 42Hz. If you have a piano or keyboard at your disposal, play that F# to see what I mean. It's a bass note, I don't mean bass guitar note, I mean bass as in bass, baritone, tenor, alto, etc

This might explain it better

No, that's explained perfectly well there, and it's certainly more clear in my mind now. Somehow I did kinda get the idea of a bass guitar note. I'm getting a far more realistic idea now of what this will sound like.

Doctor J wrote:

It's a 42Hz note. It's a note found on bass guitars, it's in the home of bass drums, it's almost a full octave below standard guitar pitch. String gauge won't make a difference apart from the tone of the note and how loose/tight it feels. If it's F# it vibrates 42 times per second, that has nothing to do with the pickups either. It's your call man, but for me it just falls to far into the grey area which has traditionally separated guitar from bass and the existing hardware which is tailored for one or the other and not both. Normal guitar speakers just aren't designed for that low a frequency.

Hmm... You can't hold it against me to still be contemplating the 8 String seriously, can you? I don't think that the notion of it being in a grey area bothers me at all really (Aside from the possible amp-jiggery, that is) in the same sense as extra high-end on a bass would be something I like.

I downloaded a demo from the admin of the extended range guitar forum, who has a 9 string guitar, which I think is tuned F# - A (But I could of course be wrong) and it doesn't sound too bad at all. Check it out here and tell me what you think, DocJ? Does sound a wee bit buzzy on the very low end, but it's just a demo, so that can be forgiven.

It's definetly nice to hear that it's not complete mud though.

Doctor J

Karl Hungus wrote:

Hmm... You can't hold it against me to still be contemplating the 8 String seriously, can you?

Not at all. I'd just advise a lot of research and total inner peace before you place the order, that's all

I'm not at a download friendly connection at the moment, I'll check that mp3 out on Monday. I'm very curious as to what it sounds like.

LGM Guitars

I'll try to record an MP3 of the 8 string this weekend guys, the low F# takes you down into that bass range for sure, but it's not the damaging heavy smashing tone you may think it is

nadir

awesome stuff for sure.

waht about an oil and wax finish??? really show off the wood. I know you want it black, but id go for the wax finish myself.
lo LGM . i must order myself one sometime too, i just got a job so it also appears i may be in the money soon. hehe
I still wanna make my own fretless bass though.

Karl Hungus

Doc, I'm really going to be carefull about the guitar before I say anything definite. You've been an invaluable help so far anyway! Also, you ever listen to Isis?

LGM Guitars wrote:

I'll try to record an MP3 of the 8 string this weekend guys, the low F# takes you down into that bass range for sure, but it's not the damaging heavy smashing tone you may think it is

Excellent stuff, Jeremy! Much appreciated!

Doctor J

No, that's the chap who used to be in Nile? In Their Darkened Shrines is about as close as I've got.

You get that Cynic album yet?

Karl Hungus

No, didn't get it yet. I've still not even got around to getting the new Mastodon either, which thankfully is on offer in town, so I'll nab it first I think, and then see if I can get my hands on Cynic, and definetly some more Isis.

Not sure if 'tis anyone from Nile tbh, but I could be wrong altogether.

Karl Hungus

nadir wrote:

waht about an oil and wax finish??? really show off the wood. I know you want it black, but id go for the wax finish myself.

Naw, while I love the fact that Jeremy seemingly doesn't laquer the necks, the trans-black over quilted maple is just secks absolute! I'd have it no other way.

Numina

36 frets: add $75, Get this you mentaller

feylya

He's already discussed this. He'd rather have two pickups than have 12 frets that he can only use for tapping.

Karl Hungus

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

LGM Guitars

Sorry I haven't gotten an MP3 up yet, I just haven't had the time to do any playing at all. I also realized I haven't got any type of recording program on this computer yet either, it's a new computer and I haven't installed anything. I will try to get something up as soon as I can though. I'm still getting lost on the 8 string necks though LOL!!!!

Karl Hungus

There's no hurry, Jeremy. I doubt I'll be placing an order first thing in the morning, so relax. I still want to try and convince you to do fanned frets for me, so any idea on how much you'd have to pay novax guitars, and how much it would add onto my bill?

Giblet

Man, have you even played an 8-String? This seems like a big step, It will feel like a completely different instrument, especially with the fanned frets. You probably will have a mental breakdown doing the transition for a six!

Karl Hungus

I'm well definetly to put in a lot of practice to get used to it. No doubt I'll just go *Boggle* when I first get it in my hands, but just some of the thoughts of what I'll be able to do just get me all excited. It'll definetly be worth the adjustment.

What are your thoughts on the extra range, Giblet? I'd imagine you'd be quite opinionated on the subject.

Giblet

I think it's cool, but spending that much money on something I wouldn't know I liked is crazy to me

The fanned frets definatly make me go "what?!" I don't think this would be suited for chord playing, especially when trying to add in a lower root and what have you. I'd be interested to hear some scale and appreggio runs, I'd say you could go on forever. I know I'd have fun messing around on a board that big, playing some nice low bass then getting some screeching highs.

You definatly need the right amp for this.

Should practice some crazy jazz on it.

Karl Hungus

Yeah, I can imagine playing chords would be quite an adjustment on the auld fanned frets. Though I think I'd have to learn some Jazz before I can play anything crazy just yet.

LGM Guitars

The 8 string neck is surprisingly comfortable. I didn't think I'd personally like them myself but because it's to wide to really even wrap my thumb over, it forces you to be smoother, faster, and my hand does not cramp up at all. It takes some time learning to look at the board and judge where the strings are, but it's not to bad. The strangest part is playing with an open F# for chording, you have to relearn where all the root notes are all of a sudden. But I am loving being able to play a full 3 octave scale in one position Now if only my fingers would co-operate in doing some 8 string sweeps LOL!!!

dpmasunder

Hi, just found this thread. I'm in the initial stages of planning an 8-string myself. I have a couple of other projects to finish first though, so it may be a while before I get started. I might have some useful input if you're interested.

re: Novax fanned frets, Novax only requires a $75 licence fee if the guitar is going to be sold within the USA. He really only patented fanned frets to stop the big boys getting there first and stopping him from using his own invention. Pretty good for us smalltime luthiers, eh? (me included). Obviously if LGM doesn't want to do it, then that's cool too. Expect it to be a fairly expensive option in any case as the bridge/bridges will probably have to be custom machined and the fret slotting is more time consuming as well. Allparts stocks individual bridges by ABM but I have no idea what they are like. I have ordered ABM stuff before and wasn't impressed tbh.

re: amps. I've been playing 7-string for a long time now, metal mostly. These days I don't play much, and often at night so I use a POD. Previously I had a Boogie TriAxis, which ran through a custom power amp (sort of like an EL34 100/100) with a built in crossover. The higher stuff went into a Marshall 4 x 12", the lows through a 1 x 15".
It was overkill but achieved what I wanted. It cleared up the sound of the 12"s by removing frequencies they couldn't handle and gave more defined bass. The crossover was switchable but the highs going through the 15" as well sounded pretty harsh.

The EMG option will give more defined bass notes imho, it is a totally different sound than passive, they seem to be pickups you either love or hate. I'm an EMG boy myself

The Leviathan is a cool looking guitar. Are you in Canada LGM? I'm in Australia. I work for Ochoteco guitars in Brisbane. No website yet I'm afraid

http://www.allparts.com/categories.php?cat_id=402&cat_name=FOR%20NON-TREMOLO%20GUITARS

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/frame_Licensing.html

Regards,

Dan

Karl Hungus

Thanks for your comments, dpmasunder, that's been very helpfull altogether. Especially this part here:

Instruments built outside of the U.S. do not require licensing unless they are sold in the U.S.

Nice to know really.
So if you're willing at some stage Jeremy, it just comes down to the bridge and the extra work that would go into it, price wise. From the novax site, the bridge for the 8 string is $280. Not sure how much more that would be compared to the hipshot, or if hipshot do a bridge for fanned frets, but it's good to have a price.

feylya

AFAIK, it's possible to do the nut for a fanned fret system instead of the bridge. TBH, you could pop down the butchers, get a long bone and make your own novax fanned fret nut. That said, it's more difficult to play that way.

Karl Hungus

I was under the impression you'd need both a bridge and nut for fanned frets? Besides, I'm hardly a skilled luthier, now am I? A PC I can build, but a guitar is a whole different peice of tech altogether.

feylya

Eh, afaik, normally the nut is straight and the bridge is offset. Basically the lowest string is set at a 27" scale and the highest string is at 25.5" or 24.75" so the frets are at a slant, greatest at the first fret and near straight at the 24 or 36 fret (depending how many you want).

It's quite simple in theory. I think

Karl Hungus

If the nut is straight, then surely the first fret would be straight also, and the greatest slant is up at the 24th?

So if that would be the case, it would be very cool indeed for chords and the like.

feylya

Yes, but I was talking as if the nut was slanted and the bridge was straight. It works both ways but it's harder to play simple chords with the nut slanted.