Fox Hunting.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494657#Comment_123494657

Hunting with dogs has been going since Moses. It's not culling, it's a barbaric sport.

It's not farmers that are doing it it's horse folk that do it as a kind of social get together. I'm sure there's more humane ways of killing Foxes if they have to. Hunting won't do anything to reduce numbers anyway.

dxhound2005

There are a lot of foxes in Dublin city. Not much chance of the tallyho brigade going after them there.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494657#Comment_123494657

Nobody needs to murder a wild animal, Its not the foxes fault that theirs so many farms near them. Anybody who kills an animal that they are not going to eat are a piece of sh*t.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494657#Comment_123494657

"Any hunter I know does not enjoy killing…"

So everybody on this forum https://www.boards.ie/categories/hunting heaves a sigh and suppresses their disgust and goes out there armed to the teeth for the benefit of mankind?

If you can get past the dodgy spelling and grammar, this thread is particularly illuminating https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055331308/sport-hobby-or-way-of-life#latest

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494864#Comment_123494864

A few things going on there. First, If foxes start killing chickens and lambs then yeah they are fair game. Yes you can kill an animal that is doing damage like a crow opening and spoiling a bail of silage. Remember farmers do this so you can have €2 chicken fillet sandwich. Once you realise how tight the margins are in farming. Can I ask your profession and what do you do to protect your employment?

HazeDoll

The idea that these lads are forced to sit up all night, wrapped in a blanket, protecting sleeping chickens from a big bad fox is misleading. They often travel miles and miles to find something to shoot. Last year I met two chaps with Donegal accents in a field behind my house. They were setting up for the night, it was a merry little holiday for them.

I accidentally made a lot of noise walking my dogs. I hope I didn't scare the foxes away.

The fact that so many hunters are reluctant to just admit in a discussion like this that they get a kick out of taking a life is very telling. They know it's not a good thing to own up to and they don't even like to acknowledge it in themselves. And that gives me reason to hope.

dxhound2005

The fox went out on a chilly night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t3fBEEnQuM

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494938#Comment_123494938

I have hunted and I have known hunters. Not "armed to the teeth" either as you put it. But with nothing more than a bow.

There is a lot more nuance to it than simply declaring they enjoy killing - or them claiming they 100% don't. Especially hunters who eat or use what they kill. If we are going to distill it down to soundbites then that nuance will be lost entirely.

What seems rarely to get mentioned on threads like this is fishing. That is also a sport which people do for fun and often involves killing and eating what you catch. Sometimes you throw back what you catch but honestly no fisherman knows if the injuries inflicted during the catch will be debilitating or terminal to the fish they return to the water. Throwing them back is considered more humane by some. But is it?

Most of the enjoyment of the sport and the eating comes not from the moment you kill your catch. But everything leading up to it and everything after it. The actual moment they crack the fish's skull off the side of the boat to finish it off - is not a moment they usually derive any pleasure from. But I have rarely seen people up in arms on threads calling people who enjoy this sport out in the way hunters of mammals are. But how is it different really?

The real nuance I think you miss comes from the fact that while hunting I get no more pleasure (that is to say, none) from the act of killing the animal myself than I do from the idea that I outsource it to other people to do for me - each and every time I go into a supermarket and buy any kind of flesh from the cooler. While I am sure there must be some people who actively get their "kicks" out of the actual taking of the life - I have not knowingly met such a person myself yet.

The fun and pleasure comes from everything else around the hunt. The weeks or months of training before the hunt even starts. Going into the wild. The stalk and tracking. Being in nature. The Skill and Patience involved. The hours sometimes even days of effort required to get just one kill. The return to an earlier state of our species when this was what we had evolved to do. It's primal and it's real in a way our cushioned outsourced reality is not.

I get some "pleasure" (though this is not the right word) from the kill in knowing this was a wild animal that "enjoyed" a full and natural life - and was killed in a relatively instant moment of minimal suffering - compared to a Tesco Burger from an animal that knew only captivity in it's entire life - often starting with instant separation from its mother - and then the relative horrors of our industrial farming systems. In fact a hunters kill is often so swift and humane that it is nothing compared to how some such animals die in the wild under their predators. Some predators even start eating their prey still alive. Compare a near instant death by arrow to the minutes even hours of being eaten some animals get before death.

And the fact that if the animal gets away, I simply do not eat. The animal has a chance. The burger on the supermarket shelf had no chance at all. And finally from "owning" the kill myself - taking ownership of the ending of the life of another mammal rather than blinding myself to it by allowing others to do it for me in slaughter houses. Not that I do not buy supermarket or butcher meat. I do. But I feel a lot more moral distaste at that than eating meet I killed or farmed myself.

The actual moment of the kill in and of itself and watching an animal go from alive to dead brings me no pleasure at all. In fact many hunters - myself included - will take some with the carcass just kneeling and contemplating. One often engages in a "Gratitude practice" that is almost spiritual - acknowledging the life taken and the meat that will feed the hunter (and their family) for weeks not just a single throw away day when one picks a packet off a shelf thoughtlessly and throws it into a shopping trolley. I have seen hunters, myself included, moved to tears in this moment. There is a grief and respect for the prey not often felt by anyone getting their little meat packages at the shops. They know the reality of the kill more intimately than someone merely vicariously tutting their imagined disgust from their keyboards. How many people or animals do you now that pour over their food acknowledging and respecting and owning the sacrifice of the animal involved in it's creation? Go into a McDonalds and ask yourself if among the people you see stuffing their pie holes with beef patties there - is there even one who looks like they let it cross their minds once.

The same comes from farming one's own meat. Myself and my children every year keep geese. Our Christmas dinner comes from animals that we as a family fed, cared for, played with, got to know the individual characters of, even named. And it mean's a lot more to us than a frozen turkey showing up on the doorstep from an internet delivery. Do you honestly think me and my kids sit around gagging for the moment the geese are actually offed though? Thinking we simply can't wait till that exact moment when the light goes out in the bird's eyes? That's how simplistic thinking should be on the matter? Because it is wrong. We have actually sat with our kids at Christmas and part of the meal involved us sharing memories about the animals we were eating while talking about them. Grokking them in fullness, as an old book once said on the matter.

So yes there are many layers of nuance and conflict within the experiences and emotions and intent of many a hobby hunter that is not really president in the reductionist "that's all I need to know about them" post you made. Rather you have established all you want or care to know about them - because to know or learn more is to open yourself up to levels of reality and nuance you aren't prepared to acknowledge to yourself. If that's how you want to approach life - by all means have at it. I have no interest or intent to change you or your opinions on the matter, or care what you may or may not think about me as a person. But I am still happy to call a spade a spade all the same and point out reductionist nonsense if I see it too. If not for your benefit, then for that of anyone else who might be reading the thread with interest.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494968#Comment_123494968

If a fox is on your farm you can use that defence but no hunter is going to wait for a fox to enter their land. Again its killing an animal that your not going to use for food which should always be illegal. There are more humane ways of dealing with Fox control. Been a farmer is a difficult job but if a farmer needs to resort to animal cruelty to make a profit they shouldn't be farmers. I work in IT and don't do anything thats illegal.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493548#Comment_123493548

It’s all incredibly civilised. Before the chase, the hounds gather for a quick strategy meeting, clipboards and all. They agree that, when the time comes, one specially appointed hound will gently snap the fox’s neck with surgical precision, no mess, no fuss.

The terriers, of course, are under strict instructions: no dragging by the tail, paw, or snout. Instead, they’re to coax the fox out with treats, softly spoken encouragement, and perhaps a motivational poster or two. Once the fox emerges, the terriers back off and a hound politely steps forward to perform the humane neck-breaking ceremony as the nouveau riche politely clap and scratch themselves in their new tweed costumes.

Would you cop on.

con___manx1

Foxes are rarely caught in those fox hunts. I used to go with my uncle when I was a kid. Seen so many of them get away. Far to clever for those dogs.

I think usually the ones they do catch are either sick injured or old Or very young.

It is cruel . I do love foxes myself.

There are plenty of other animals that are being wiped out and becoming rare that no one cares about because they are not cute and cuddly like a fox. Foxes are not going to be wiped out. Plenty of birds and even fish that are on the edge and nobody gives a fiddlers. Fox hunts do create alot of money for the economy. Loads of people travel over from the UK to hunt as its banned there.

Danny healy ray

was out last weekend dropped a few

ddelighted

con___manx1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123495514#Comment_123495514

Farmers use snares to kill Foxes. This is possibly a worse death for the fox than being killed by dogs. At least with the dogs it's over very quick but with a snare the fox my have to chew his own leg off or be stuck in the snare for days and die slowly or choke it's self to death. I'd ban snares before fox hunting to be honest.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123495663#Comment_123495663

Yeah.

Posts like this do the hunting community no favours whatsoever. There's no context, no reasoning, just a glib, boastful line that comes across as gloating or goading. It makes hunters look callous, not like the responsible conservationists or land stewards some are. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were an anti-hunting activist posing as a hunter, deliberately trying to undermine the community from within. If you care at all about how hunting is perceived, and can’t be bothered to articulate your purpose or respect the ethics involved, then silence would serve the cause better.

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123495672#Comment_123495672

Honest? not a fan of snares myself either. They can catch family pets as well.

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123495514#Comment_123495514

Arent you a lucky boy that you dont have to own a fire arm to defend your property and livelihood. You dont have to buy a shot gun or centerfire rifle, buy a lisence, apply to the local firearms officer, fit an ugly steel cabinet into your house (it has to be chained to the wall), comply with nonspecific garda inspections. Yeah if an animal (becomes vermin) attacks your property, lifestock and meal stock you can kill them. Like where would we be if we couldnt kill rats, rabbits, mice, mink, foxes and ferral dogs. Maybe you should ask a farmer what they think when you are eating you chicken salad roll.

randd1

The hunts have no respect for farmers at all. Way too often the trample, destroy or just assume they can where they want.

I know a farmer around my fathers home place, told the hunt to stop coming onto his lands, but they kept doing it. He'd had enough, and the next time they barrelled through his land, he shot a few of the dogs. When the lads in charge of the hunt came up to him, he told them to leave or he'd start shooting the horses as well. They left.

The rumour is a couple of years later they came onto his land again, and he actually shot a horse that time. Since then, there's definitely been less hunts around.

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496129#Comment_123496129

Y'know what they say in the army? If a mouse ran across the floor of the mess in the morning in Collins barracks by lunch time in the Curragh it would be an elephant. I would believe maybe a dog or two was shot but not a horse. I fire arms owner wouldnt risk his license. A hard stand off maybe.

My uncle gets on great with his hunt they have two rides a year in his area and and send an enormous hamper at christmas with two bottles of whiskey. I never heard him complain once about them.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496008#Comment_123496008

If you have an issue with that then sell your farm and move somewhere else. A fox is not vermin, they are wild animals and guess what, they are allowed to coexist with humans. I already know what a farmer thinks and as I have taste buds I don't eat chicken salad rolls. If farmers want to keep the fox population down shooting foxes when they are not on your property is not the way to do it.

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497406#Comment_123497406

I dont have an issue with firearms, more I have an issue with the lack of firearms. Why couldnt we just deregulate gun ownership instead for all law abiding citizens? An armed society is a polite society. You clearly have no idea about firearms or the law on firearms. Once an animal is a pest (destroys property, food stuff, crops, or livestock) then it legally becomes vermin. Vermin is fair game to shoot. A fox or deer that is destroying crops or killing chickens is fair game. Foxes are not protected species under the 2014 Forestry act. BTW, I am not a member of an organised hunt or have ever participated in one but I do support the freedom to choose whether it be horse mounts with hounds, beagling, ferrets or shoots.

mikethecop

An armed society is a polite society ? are you mental ?

about 99 percent of the people i interact with on a daily basis aren't trustworthy with a sharp stick .

firearms are rightly very tightly controlled in this country ,

as for the thread and topic at hand foxhunting is almost all about the horses and hounds , over two years as much much younger man i think i say a fox once , from a great distance ,

by far the most likely dumb animal to be hurt are hunt saboteurs trying to disrupt drag hunts due to lack of intelligence and dangerous levels of minge stink

magicbastarder

my wife has a horse, so i am exposed to many people who are keen on horses. and they almost universally (the ones i've talked to on the topic, anyway) dislike people who hunt, for their cavalier attitudes to horses. ride em hard and put em away wet sort of approach.

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498090#Comment_123498090

Yeah. You train a society to be responsible, safety conscious and community based you can have an armed society of citizens like Austria or Switzerland. Low levels of crime, nobody wants to invade. Strong ethnic communities that are deeply rooted in culture and history. One of the worlds greatst body guards are drawn from the swiss army.

IIn fairness, if you are a cop didnt one of the Emergency Response Units members was up in court laSt week for a work related negligent discharge where he shot himself in the foot with an SMG? Why was the safety off, the round chambered and the magazine on the gun? He says it snagged in his chest rig. I dont think AGS elite are qualified to be handling guns. Lets not forget Abbeylara. The FCA had better discipline than that crap.

Always remember what happens after a gun collection...... Mao Hitler Stalin pol pot, Penal Laws (that was swords).

Collie D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496008#Comment_123496008

Posts like this always make me wonder are us city dwellers lucky we don’t need guns to defend ourselves. Yet on other threads the same posters call out Dublin as a shithole to be avoided.

On topic. I’ve no problem with farmers shooting foxes to defend their chickens.

Chasing down animals on horseback to be savaged by a pack of dogs as fun/a hobby? You’ve probably got issues.

SupaCat95

I dont part take in fox hunting either horse mounted or beagling. I have no problem with anyone who does. We live in peace and cooperation with our local hunt. Shure from time to time things happen but its part of the hunt. At christmas the hunt sends a massive hamper and shure its nothing a bottle and ham cannot smooth over.

GGuns are essentail part of life to remind people to be civil. The Gardai cannot always be there when they are required. Hence Frog Ward and the incident last year in Parnell square.

HazeDoll

Well isn't it interesting to see this turn into 'We want more guns.'

Almost as if the hunters' disregard for life isn't limited to wild fauna.

SupaCat95

IIs it unreasonable to want to protect yourself family and property?

magicbastarder

Well, this thread has jumped the shark.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492109#Comment_123492109

What makes the scent of the fox do you think

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498535#Comment_123498535

OOh they use a big bottle of Chanel No.5 and artifical stinky fox scent. No?