Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill.

Musicrules · 06-01-2025 10:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027844#Comment_123027844

More sneaking regard for the ongoing genocide.

political analyst · 07-01-2025 12:01AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027144#Comment_123027144

Regarding US law on boycotts, I merely referred to what I read in the Indo article.

end of the road · 07-01-2025 12:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027844#Comment_123027844

2000 armed terrorists for who that border was thrown open for them to cross, and even then that number is very much debated.
and lets be clear, many killed that day were so by their own government as well, the government who threw open the border.
not to mention the fact that israel has been engaging in a brutal siege for almost 20 years, and before that had engaged in a brutal occupation and apartheid.
as you will well know, israel absolutely started this war over 70 years ago when it decided to engage in a whole scale ethnic cleansing and terror campaign upon it's founding, and then later on went on 2 land grabs because it is greedy and god said they were entitled something something.

hardly anybody is buying the "this war started on october 7th" bs any more, because people are not stupid and the hasbara guff no longer works.

Galwayguy35 · 07-01-2025 05:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028124#Comment_123028124

So do you condemn what happened on Oct 7th?

A simple yes or no answer will do.

Peregrinus · 07-01-2025 07:09AM

The issue is that the bill itself does not declare its concern with Area C per se, it defines an "occupied territory" as:
"Occupied territory3. (1) In this Act, “relevant occupied territory” means a territory which is occupied within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and which has been—(a) confirmed as such in a decision or advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice,(b) confirmed as such in a decision of the International Criminal Court,(c) confirmed as such in a decision of an international tribunal, or(d) designated as such for the purposes of this Act in a regulation made by the Minister pursuant to section 4.(2) The Minister shall publish on the internet and maintain a list of all territories for the time being constituting a relevant occupied territory under this section."
So the bill could apply to regions other than Area C, and it seems designed deliberately to leave the interpretation of what constitutes an occupied territory open in order to maximise what the authors of the bill consider to be an occupied territory…
Also, the leaving open the question of what an occupied territory is to such a range of interpretations allows some opposition parties to imply it to mean Israel in its entirety, and not just the part of the West Bank commonly understood as Area C.

Not at all. It doesn't leave the area of application open to "a range of interpretations"; it's quite narrow. No area is "occupied territory" unless

you can point to a judgment of the International Court of Justice, International Criminal Court or other international tribunal declaring that the area in question is occupied territory as defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention; or
the Minister makes an order declaring that the area in question is occupied territory as defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

That's very specific. You've got an existing concept of "occupied territory" in the Fourth Geneva Convention, plus you have a requirement that an independent authority like the ICJ, etc, or the Minister must have confirmed that a particular area is within that concept. Only then does the OTB apply. There's no possibility that this Bill, as drafted, could apply to Israel proper. No international tribunal has ever ruled that Israel proper is occupied territory within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention, or is ever likely to. (Not least because, if Israel is occupied territory, who is occupying it? A state can't occupy itself.)

This is very far from the drafting you would adopt if you wanted an open-ended, endlessly-expanding scope for the Bill. I'm pretty sure that intention behind this drafting is to avoid any accusation that the Bill singles out Israel, or occupations conducted by Israel. So if the ICJ rules, for example, that Western Sahara is occupied by Morocco within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention, or Northern Cyprus is occupied by Turkey, then this Bill would apply to goods produced by citizens of Morocco in Western Sahara. or by Turkish citzens in Northern Cyprus.

I think questions about enforceabity arise precisely because of the very limited scope of the Bill. Goods are only affected if they are produced (a) in the occupied territories (b) by nationals of the occupying power. But if a product labelled "made in Israel" arrives in Dublin Port, how is the customs officer to know that it was not made in Israel, but in the occupied territories? And, even if he does know that, how is he to know the nationality of the person or company who made it? My criticism of the Bill would be that that it's unworkable in practice. And a supporter of the Bill would probably respond by saying that it still has value as a statement of principle.

lawred2 · 07-01-2025 07:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027186#Comment_123027186

In so inferring that you do "care enough"!

Care enough to do what? Post on a forum? Wave a flag? Wear a scarf?

blanch152 · 07-01-2025 09:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027313#Comment_123027313

That poster mentions Hamas, not Palestinians.

Are you trying to tell us that Hamas, who do not let the women of Palestine travel abroad alone, are good guys? That their support of terrorism is a good thing?

People keep telling me that support for Palestinians is not the same as support for Hamas, but for some, it doesn't take much for the mask to slip.

blanch152 · 07-01-2025 09:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027307#Comment_123027307

Yawn, the labelling of those you disagree with as FFG supporters is both tired and overdone on these pages.

I have consistently voted Green for many years, don't agree with everything they say or do, I am a Green voter, rather than a Green supporter.

twinytwo · 07-01-2025 01:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123015029#Comment_123015029

Far too many leftie/lived in a bubble their entire lives/ constantly need something to cry about just to feel validated morons live in this country - the majority of whom as you say would struggle to point out Israel or Palestine on a map.

Then you have the clowns in government who seem to think it will get them their much sought after pat on the back - from who? I'm not sure.

j62 · 07-01-2025 01:24PM

Meanwhile Qatar spending hundreds of billions on mosques across Europe and Saudi Arabia spending trillions of sports washing

They don’t give a **** about their own fellow Arabs and Muslims

Yet we “have to do something” about people who if situations were reversed would not help us and probably dance on streets like they done on 9/11

blanch152 · 07-01-2025 03:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123029394#Comment_123029394

It is an interesting question as to why Saudi Arabia haven't brought in an Occupied Territories Bill while we are expected to do so.

blanch152 · 07-01-2025 03:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028124#Comment_123028124

If you think that conflict between Israel and Arabs only began 70 years ago, you really know very little about the Middle Eastern conflict. It goes back millenia. We Europeans have been involved for a lot of that time as well, Germany wasn't the first European power to commit genocide against a Jewish population, the Romans were there before them.

j62 · 07-01-2025 04:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030009#Comment_123030009

Because Saudis are very angry their deal with Israel that would have made em $$$ was torpedoed by HAMAS

Neither do they hire any Palestinians to build Neom only a few hundred miles away

H_Lime · 07-01-2025 04:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028371#Comment_123028371

Its telling that the type of caring you mention is at the vacuous virtue signalling end of the spectrum. Pretty base.

There's plenty a single individual can do to make his voice heard against a genocide. If you cared you'd know that.

blanch152 · 07-01-2025 05:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030304#Comment_123030304

The Occupied Territories Bill is the equivalent for a government of the vacuous virtue signalling end of the spectrum, except that it also amounts to self-harm for the country, making it as stupid as it can be.

jimmycrackcorm · 07-01-2025 05:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027085#Comment_123027085

A real Ireland throws a hissyfit move.
We didn't kick the UK ambassador out after bloody Sunday, why would we kick out the Israeli ambassador?

tayto lover · 07-01-2025 06:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027242#Comment_123027242

All that makes no real difference as long as Israel is murdering women and children in their thousands instead of Hamas members. They cover up their genocidal acts by saying '' human shields'', ''command centres''. ''tunnels'' etc etc while dropping 2,000 pound bombs on tented villages, destroying hospitals, schools, creches, etc and blocking aid, food and medicine from getting in. They have murdered 195 members of the Press in order to prevent the truth getting out.

tayto lover · 07-01-2025 06:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123027299#Comment_123027299

There was no effort to disguise it either. You have some posters who were all over threads supporting Israel and it's genocide and who now have faux outrage about the ambassador and her murderous government throwing the toys out of the pram and leaving. Who'll miss them?

JPCN1 · 07-01-2025 06:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030009#Comment_123030009

Too busy bombing the shiite out of their neighbours in Yemen?

But we're grand with the Saudi's for some reason…

H_Lime · 07-01-2025 06:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030398#Comment_123030398

You've shown that you don't understand the gravity of the OTB for israel. They rightly fear it and are actively trying to prevent it. They are currently busy trying to dirty Irelands international standing in the hopes of quelling others from doing same. It is the thin end of a very bad wedge for them and legitimises state action, which many could follow, against this rogue nation.

BDS in America been intentionally conflated as antisemitism and the rest of the world is next to be brought to heel by accepting their doctrine, which Ireland wholesale rejects.

Regarding fall out for Ireland if the OTB passes, it's already a certainty for other obvious reasons if weren't already aware.

Lastly I'm not going to appeal to anyone's humanity to try and change their mind regards this topic, that would be foolish. You have your reasons and I believe genocide is bad and should be fought.

end of the road · 07-01-2025 06:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030047#Comment_123030047

ultimately irrelevant.
the drip drip genocide of the palestinians started 70 years ago and ramped up on october 8th.
so yes this current conflict started 70 years ago.

j62 · 07-01-2025 07:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030571#Comment_123030571

Sent from a Chinese phone

blanch152 · 07-01-2025 09:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123030572#Comment_123030572

That is some overblown understanding of Ireland's place in the world!!!

Nobody will follow Ireland on this, nobody. We are already a laughing stock in Europe for the way we have tied ourselves in knots over how to use our army in peacekeeping, actually scratch that, not a laughing stock, just seen as pitiful. We are doing the same with this ridiculous bill. What will we do if the ICJ decides that Guantanamo Bay is occupied territory?