Firearms legislation in NI vs ROI

dublincc2

I’ve just been doing a bit of research into the legislation around firearms ownership in the north and also reviewing our own laws here in the republic. A few very interesting points stood out.

In the north you can own semi-automatic handguns of any calibre (unique in the UK), . Despite this, semi-automatic rifles are illegal unless chambered in .22LR.

In the south, for some bizarre reason, semi-automatic rifles of any calibre are permitted, though restricted. In other words, you could theoretically get a permit for an AR-15 in the south, but you can’t own a Glock. This seems ridiculous and without any logic.

Why are handguns illegal in this jurisdiction? Even if there was a calibre limit, say 9mm only and a magazine capacity limit of 17 (for the Glock 17). Why is the north different in this regard?

This is certainly something to be looked at, although it will probably take a future united Ireland vote to see any action. A rational system (for the republic) would have handguns permitted and rifles restricted to .22LR. I can’t fathom why this isn’t the case currently.

otmmyboy2

I don't know where or how you did your research but it is not exactly right.
Centrefire semiauto rifles are grandfathered here in the south since August a year ago now. In 2015 a minister made a statement that they would be banned from then but there was no change in legislation, so instead when they passed the ban law in 2023 they simply banned every one which was licenced post 2015.

Also, handguns are licencable here in the South, but very heavily restricted(22lr and .177 for air pistols only, 5 round mags/cylinders, only licenced for target shooting on authorised ranges).

As for why both centrefire semiauto rifles, centrefire pistols and practical shooting, the powers that be(Guards and Dept of Justice) disliked them so they were banned(long story short).

Also, for NI - "semi-automatic rifles are illegal unless chambered in .22LR.", no they can licence any semiauto rimfire rifle, an important distinction.


"A rational system (for the republic) would have handguns permitted and rifles restricted to .22LR." - rationality doesn't enter into it when it comes to firearms licencing in most countries. And the republic(read the government and Guards) are never going to allow centrefire handguns to return now that they have gotten rid of them(grandfathered all pre-2008 and banned post 2008).
The goal(as far as firearms go for the Irish state) is to reduce the numbers of firearms in circulation and reduce the types of firearms allowable for licencing. This is the stated policy and if you look at historically what has been done every legal move has supported that intent. They are extremely unlikely to about face on that one.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058363926/firearms-legislation-in-ni-vs-roi

Could you provide references for these points you have house. I'm not familiar with NI firearms laws, but you are making some logical leaps in regards the republic.

In the south, for some bizarre reason, semi-automatic rifles of any calibre are permitted, though restricted.

Why is that bizarre?
Any calibre is permitted as a restricted firearm. But .308 (<8mm) is the limit on a standard license.

Why are handguns illegal in this jurisdiction? Even if there was a calibre limit, say 9mm only and a magazine capacity limit of 17 (for the Glock 17). Why is the north different in this regard?

Handguns are not illegal.
Limited calibres are licensable for target shooting as described above by @otmmyboy2 . You can't licence one just because you want a Glock.

Other pistol calibre are technically restricted (same as rifles over .308). But new applications will not be considered.

The north is different as it is an entirely unrelated jurisdiction.

A rational system (for the republic) would have handguns permitted and rifles restricted to .22LR. I can’t fathom why this isn’t the case currently.

I'm all for more access to pistols. but I'm don't follow why you think rifles should be restricted to .22lr. That makes no sense.

Grizzly 45

Also,not quite correct either in SA rifles being banned in NI in centrefire calibres.There is a fudge on this that if the rifle is under a certain OAL irrespective of calibre,it is considered a pistol.EG, an HK 9mm model K, is adding a buttstock to turn it into a PDW-style carbine, which is frowned upon but legally okay. IOW you can have a short AR 15" pistol "with a stock and 20-round mag as that is the EU standard for pistol magazine capacity with less hassle than acquiring one in the USA where it would be considered a short-barreled rifle and be considered an NFA item.

More differences are;

IPSC is not considered "combat training "in NI, despite NI still having a terrorist problem. Maybe because the PSNI is an armed force and knows the difference?

Reloading ammo and acquiring the components can be done on your firearms cert, and doesn't require you to have facilities that are suited to the commercial manufacturing of ammunition.

Crossbows ASFIK are still off-ticket items(?)not needing a license.

Black powder shooting is common and easily available. BP despite it being a primary explosive, isn't immediately thought if going to be "used by Terrorists" to ban it despite the province being on the verge of open civil war for 35 years.

In fact a gun ban was never seriously considered in NI, despite John Hume trying such in the Early 70s, as a usual quick-fix solution to a problem unlike down here.

Gun crime (excluding terrorist activity )compared to SI is negligible.

In fact ,if you wanted an example of strict gun laws VS liberal gun laws[more or less in comparison to here and UK mainland] and who has the less gun crime.NI vs SI is a textbook case to study

dublincc2

I am very confused here, perhaps I read the legislation wrong.

My understanding is that you could get a permit for a HK416 or M4 in 5.56 from AGS, but you couldn’t get a permit under any circumstances for a Glock or Sig 9mm. That just seems absolutely nonsensical.

I worded it wrong when I said a logical system would be to have centre fire rifles limited to .22LR, there are larger cartridges in use by hunters etc such as the .308. I meant the actual type of rifle (semi-auto like an AR-15 or AK47) should be restricted. Since last August, this has been rectified, although the .308 cartridge seems to be banned as well.

Regardless, I still cannot see any reason why in Donegal I can’t own a Glock but two minutes down the road in Tyrone I can have one, there seems to be no logic whatsoever and there hasn’t been any huge problems in NI with non-paramilitary related shootings.

Cass

"My understanding is that you could get a permit for a HK416 or M4 in 5.56 from AGS"

They have been prohibited (effectively banned) since, 2015 but it only came into force with legislation last year. Anyone with a license for one before Sept. 2015 keeps the firearm, anyone with a license after 2015 looses the license, hence the gun. No one can apply for one as off now.

The only semi auto rifle now available is rimfire.

Its the same with centrefire handguns. Anyone with one before 2009 keeps it, anyone after cannot even apply for one.

.22lr and air pistols can still be licensed.

"I meant the actual type of rifle (semi-auto like an AR-15 or AK47) should be restricted"

They were. They are now "banned", or more accurately, prohibited firearms.

", although the .308 cartridge seems to be banned as well."

The .308 is not banned as a caliber. In semi auto, see above, in bolt action style it's very much available.

Gumbo

I have a Glock……

Albeit a .22 LR

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122495165#Comment_122495165

Is this deja-vu, Donegal,Glock, 2008 all over again

dublincc2

I’ve re-read the legislation and it’s clearer now, so a .308 hunting rifle like a Tikka X3 centrefire is still allowed but a HK416 .556 or any .223 semi-auto is not.

This leaves the handgun issue, are we likely to see a future situation where 9mm semi-auto pistols will be back on sale, or will it need to wait for a united Ireland to see any progress?

My overall point being it seems ridiculous that on the same small island, in one area you can own a Glock 9mm and the other you can’t. <MOD SNIP>

otmmyboy2

You could never licence a HK416, because that is fully automatic.
You could licence semiauto modern sporting firearms which looked similar, as restricted firearms, up to August 2023, provided you had a sufficiently good reason for both the firearm and why that was the sole firearm that could do the task for which you were licencing it.

Absent a court case to reverse the 2008 restriction on handguns, no, it would go against current state policy to reverse that law so absent being forced to by a judge declaring it to be invalid/unconstitutional/etc the government will not change the law willingly.

And as said before, logic doesn't come into it. RoI and NI are two separate countries, and despite how close geographically, ethnically, and in every other way they are similar they still have many differing laws, firearms laws included.

It is the same difference as if you were living in Bavaria on the border with the Czech republic.
In Bavaria you can own limited firearms and for certain purposes for which you have a licence, ie sport shooting firearms for sport shooting. Full auto, concealed carry, etc are all outside the realm of normal individuals.
Cross the border into Czechia and you have concealed carry, full auto, etc.
Different countries, different laws, same as RoI and NI.

If the two ever do join firearms will be way down the list of things to harmonise, but I cannot see any of the following being happy:
The PSNI being disarmed,
AGS policing NI,
AGS having CF handguns back legally down here,
PSNI having the grandfathered SACF rifles up there,
AGS having practical shooting sports down here,
AGS having NI concealed carry permit holders carrying down south.

The problems in that eventuality are myriad, but given the liklihood of that happening it is not exactly worth considering.

But as to your question, will centrefire handguns be back licencable here?
No, absent a very expensive court case, or a seismic shift in state policy.
At this point neither of which are particularly likely, more likely would be a court case to reverse the semiauto centrefire rifle ban given the retrospective nature of it, but even that is looking like more of a long shot the more time passes since the ban.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496068#Comment_122496068

In any future united Ireland scenario (which isn’t going to happen anytime soon regardless) I imagine both the PSNI and AGS will be merged into a new all-Ireland police service to start afresh. Such a police service will probably be routinely armed as the PSNI are now, although whether it will be with Glocks or Sigs remains to be seen (the Glocks the PSNI use are bought by the UK government/Home Office, whereas Sig had the contract with AGS).

In any case, is there any reason why in GB all handguns were banned after Dunblane yet in NI you can still own them? With them being part of the same jurisdiction and all that, also I would’ve thought after the GFA there would be a greater impetus to move towards an ‘unarmed’ society in general in the north.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496179#Comment_122496179

Same jurisdiction, ish.
Scotland, NI, the UK islands and mainland UK all have differing laws in numerous regards outside firearms, ie tax, abortion, crime, property, etc. Think of it more like the US, federal laws there apply everywhere but states get to have any laws not delegated to the federal government. Similar in the UK, a law passed in England and Wales does not necessarily apply in Scotland or NI.

And both before and after the GFA target sports and shooting was/is a big thing in NI, and given the history of attacks on former prison officers, soldiers, police, gun dealers etc it makes sense that laws remained the same regarding handguns. And the prevailing fact that law abiding firearms owners are not the issue, and those who are not law abiding can get firearms easier than the law abiding, ie down here where in recent months a pair of semiauto centrefire rifles(not legally licenced) and Polish PM63s are routinely among the criminal's arsenal.
That aspect was more abundantly obvious up there where you have the likes of homemade mortars, AR180s, big bore Barret rifles, etc. None of which were legal but all of which were present. By comparison to that a law abiding and well vetted individual with a 9mm rather pales in comparison.

Bottom line is firearms are a lot more of an accepted part of life up there than here where they are either not known about by the majority or viewed as bad if not in the hands of the state(ie AGS/PDF/RDF).

Cass

MODERATOR WARNING

While I don't want to stymy the conversation I will point to this rule which prohibits the discussion of RTKBA stuff.

As such there is to be no discussion of firearms for any other purpose other than sports or target shooting.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122495165#Comment_122495165

Good luck getting an M4 on a license.Since it is a select fire/full auto rifle. To simplify things for you, Forget the term "assault rifle" as those are select-fire firearms that have been never easily available to the GP in the Western World, bar maybe in a warzone of Yugoslavia or Ukraine.

What we have are Modern Sporting Rifles[MSR] Which can have"military features"[Whatever the hell they are] or can also be fancy walnut-grade wooden semi-autos too. Like those made by Sauer, Remington or Benelli or FN Browning.

And yes they are in and always were in the restricted category of firearms like handguns in the ROI.

As said LOGIC has NEVER featured in firearms legislation in many countries esp in Ireland, where as stated we live with two diametrically opposed firearms legislation bodies of law.

If the two ever do join firearms will be way down the list of things to harmonise, but I cannot see any of the following being happy:

The PSNI being disarmed,

With mass quittals in both forces, one force won't like being disarmed and the other won't like being armed.It's estimated that 50-75% of both forces of all ranks would in both forces would quit for being armed or disarmed.

AGS policing NI,

AGS having CF handguns back legally down here,

PSNI having the grandfathered SACF rifles up there,

AGS having practical shooting sports down here,

AGS having NI concealed carry permit holders carrying down south.

Add to that list ROI gun owners demanding the same "rights" in a 32-county Ireland on issues like handguns, bP shooting, reloading IPSC, CCP etc.

As well as, what will this new police force of Ireland be,armed or unarmed. As neither the PSNI or AGS could survive in their current configurations with their historical baggage, distrust by both communities of NI and SI of the PSNI/AGS respectively and seen as political police forces.

At this point neither of which are particularly likely, more likely would be a court case to reverse the semiauto centrefire rifle ban given the retrospective nature of it, but even that is looking like more of a long shot the more time passes since the ban.

IF anybody can rock up with maybe 20k worth of fees for barristers, we have a very good chance of challenging this, not on firearms legislation but on ownership of property legislation.We would need that to challenge the HC and Supreme Court that this is a case of serious public interest,and if that is achieved, it is then on the State to fund both parties.

As for the CF handgun ban,that is changeable with a Ministerial stroke of a pen. However, that would require a pro-gun minister for justice who isn't afraid of moving the levers of power and isn't impressed by some AGS Top brass head filling their head with "rivers of blood on Irish streets" horror stories. Keep that one in mind around the next general election in a couple of months time.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122495165#Comment_122495165

In short, you understanding is largely wrong.
HK416 and M4 are assault rifles and are have been prohibited for a very long time. The semi auto changes ones not apply to them. You are likely getting mxed up with semi-autos.
Glock and Sig 9mm are restricted and a license cannot be issued. But they were permitted more recently that the above rifles.

I meant the actual type of rifle (semi-auto like an AR-15 or AK47) should be restricted. Since last August, this has been rectified, although the .308 cartridge seems to be banned as well.

AR-15s are restricted (centrefire semi-auto). And have bee since 2008
AK47s are banned (assault rifle/full auto) and have been for years.
.308 is not banned.

You seem mixed up about a lot of laws. You shouldn't assume a new law or change in law means it was a free for all prior.

Regardless, I still cannot see any reason why in Donegal I can’t own a Glock but two minutes down the road in Tyrone I can have one, there seems to be no logic whatsoever and there hasn’t been any huge problems in NI with non-paramilitary related shootings.

You understand that Tyrone is in a different country, right?

They have different laws. They use different currencies, the speed in one is in KMs and the other is in MPH. etc

In any future united Ireland scenario (which isn’t going to happen anytime soon regardless) I imagine both the PSNI and AGS will be merged into a new all-Ireland police service to start afresh.

There is no process to how they could be united. But if Northern Ireland was to leave the UK and join the Republic of Ireland, they would adopt all of the republics laws.

A solution that retains jurisdictions would likely be less complicated.

dublincc2

Apologies I am not overly familiar with firearms, I have a basic knowledge and some past experience of using them but not as sharp on the nomenclature.

The AR-15 rifles that are widely available in the states are all semi-auto, correct? The term ‘assault rifle’ always confused me in this regard.

So am I correct to say that AR-15s like the ones in the USA civilian market were also available here prior to last year but 9mm semi-autos weren’t?

Are semi-auto AR-15-style rifles still available in NI?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122500450#Comment_122500450

AR-15s are semiauto.

"Assault rifle" is both a scaremongering word used by the media to villify firearms with general public, but is also a class of firearm which is defined as an intermediate caliber firearm which is select fire. The latter definition being a military term, the former just being a buzzword.
Neither of which are relevant to this discussion.

AR-15s, and all semiauto rifles were available here to licence prior to August 2023, they no longer are.
Centrefire handguns(what I assume you are referring to as "9mm semi-autos") are no longer licencable here since late 2008.
If you had one licenced prior to the cutoff date in 2008 you can renewal that licence, but you cannot licence more centrefire handguns.

"Are semi-auto AR-15-style rifles still available in NI?" - No, they have not been available to licence in NI for a long time, apart from rimfire AR-15 style rifles, same as here now.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122500450#Comment_122500450

The rifles you mentioned above (HK416 and M4) are actual assault rifles - as described by @otmmyboy2. They were essential never allowed to be licensed.

AR-15s and rifles based on them are not assault rifles, as they lack fully automatic fire. There are semi-auto and were licensable here up to last year. Including similar rifles in 9mm. In centrefire they were restricted since 2008, and were grandfather last year.
Semi auto rimfire rifles are still available, including AR-pattern rimfires.

9mm pistols were restricted in 2008 and grandfathered in 2009.

dublincc2

So I’ve done more research and I think I have most of my questions answered, essentially the only Glock I can own in Ireland is the 44, and there is no way I can legally own the 17 unless I am resident in NI. Is there any exemptions I am missing out on regarding 9mm in the south (apart from pre-2008, AGS or DF members)?

Also to be sure I have it correctly, in NI rimfire semi-automatic rifles are legal but centrefires are illegal? So while it was possible until last year to licence a semi-auto AR15 in ROI it was illegal to do so in NI, yet they can still legally own 9mm Glocks and we couldn’t? You see my point about how devoid of logic the system here is, even though it has been mentioned that logic rarely comes into play with these issues.

What exactly was the specific reason centrefire handguns were banned here? Thank God we have never had a Dunblane incident or similar where legally owned pistols were used to commit massacres, they were only legal (I believe) for 4 years before they were banned again in 08 and there were no incidents. Did the government genuinely believe that dissident terrorists or drug gangs were going to legally licence centrefire pistols and use them in their crimes?

BSA International

Have the tee shirt & baseball cap from this one. Not going there :(

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638204#Comment_122638204

Welcome to the Firearms laws of Ireland.

To follow your logic: the 44 is 22 and allowed. The 17, 19, 35, and all other numbers are banned in the south but allowed in the North, again ONLY because of the 2009 Act, but were only allowed because of 2005 High Court case, fighting the 1972 Temporary Seizure Act.

Your take on Semi-Auto RIFLES is correct, except that if you licensed your rifle in ROI after 2015, then it is revoked from 2023, retrospectively, in ROI, and was never legal in NI,

The reason for the 2009 Act, was that a criminal, using an unlicensed gun, shot an innocent victim,.

What has NEVER been proven, is the provenance of the firearm, whether legal (and stolen) or otherwise.

What we do know, from GARDA stats, is that more crimes have been committed using STOLEN GARDA or ARMY firearms, than have ever been committed using private firearms.

Now going back to reasons for different laws, the 1972 Act to seize all firearms in ROI was to stop terrorism (IRA) but NI allowed (and still allows) issue for self-defense, sport, etc AND STILL DO, while allowing reloading, black powder, and so negating the Irish concerns

If a 32 county happens ?. which will happen?

Grizzly 45

On another positive points for NI .

They have a sensible banded license system

Small Quarry Air Rifles
• Small Quarry (rimfire calibres)
• Medium Quarry (.22 centrefire calibres)
• Large Quarry (.243 centrefire and over) that allows " one on one-off " purchases or sales at a gun dealer for firearms in the same category, without having to do a whole mess of paperwork and freeing up police time.

Which is on a centralised structure for all matters of firearms liscensing in NI

IOW Want to change your .22 rifle for another .22 rifle go to the dealers do the transaction, hand in your old rifle,go home with you new rifle. Ditto for handguns, shotguns,or big-cal rifles

They license the man, not the gun @98 STG for five years for as many guns as you want. The UK is looking at bringing this up to 10 years too.

Reloading,ask permission from the PSNI to purchase powders and primers,go reload provided you stay within your ammo limit for purchasing readymade ammo.

ROI, Go build a bunker out in the middle of nowhere and adhere to H&S legislation suited to a full munitions plant.

Practical pistol,rifle and shotgun.

Alive and well and not considered "combat training" by the authorities who know the difference between the two and are not afraid that "criminals and terrorists" will use a sport for training.

Our positive points in the ROI

1]We can appeal to an uninvolved independent body for a decision on firearms refusals,namely the judiciary.

2]…

3]…

As for the No semi-auto CF rifles in NI.

If you don't mind your rifle is in a PDW carbine length. It can be done by obtaining an HK style or Ar style "pistol" in any caliber and adding stock, foregrip ,etc as these are accessories to a pistol.

Take a WAG who is getting the better deal in the 32 counties

Grizzly 45

The reason for the 2009 Act, was that a criminal, using an unlicensed gun, shot an innocent victim,.

What has NEVER been proven, is the provenance of the firearm, whether legal (and stolen) or otherwise

THAT was just the coat peg for the most cynical move by a FF Minister for Justice who was the most anti-gun Justice minister since Dessie O Malleys TCO in 1972.

Dermot Aherne[FF Louth] Then minister for justice announced at the Assoc of Garda Sgts and Inspectors AGM in May 2006 That he would " Curb the proliferation of firearms licenses,to prevent an American style of gun culture[Whatver the Hell that is] emerging in Ireland." That was a statement of clear intent,and our organisations slept and took no notice of this.

We suffered a 9/11 attack on our shooting sports after Nov 2006 when that slimy little man cynically used a criminal murder with a criminally imported Glock 17 by the Dundon drug gang during the Narco gang virtual open warfare on the streets of Limerick in the Oughties of an innocent to push his agenda through…The rest is history!

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639482#Comment_122639482

In an ideal scenario would you agree all centrefire semi-auto rifles should be legal alongside semi-auto handguns?

I never heard of anyone actually owning rifles chambered in 5.56 or 6.8 but I believe they were used at events like Bullseye 360.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640072#Comment_122640072

Obviously!To the 1st part

You are talking to someone who has both a 308 SA and until recently a 223 in SA, who did the district court dances with the AGS on licensing the former 3 times back in the early teens.

YES, I use them for hunting, here and abroad, Bullseye 360, and they can be used in benchrest too, as well as the Irish version of practical rifle.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640072#Comment_122640072

5.56 is just a slightly higher pressure variant of 223, which is one of the most common centerfire rifle rounds in the country.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641180#Comment_122641180

5.56 is being replaced as the standard NATO rifle cartridge with the 6.8mm.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641508#Comment_122641508

No, it is being supplemented with the 6.8 which the new Sig rifle is chambered in.

There are actually a few rifles in Ireland chambered in 6.8spc, the last wunderwaffe 5.56 killer round which never took off either.

Or 6mm arc actually.

There are already big problems with the new Sig rifle, 5.56 isn't going anywhere for a long time in the US armed forces, let alone NATO as a whole.