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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,206 ✭✭✭893bet


    as predicted by many, Bin companies are going to raise their prices as they are no longer collecting valuable metals in the blue bins.

    Ultimately the consumer loses again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,499 ✭✭✭greasepalm


    Independent news paper saying bin charges will have to go up now as lost millions due to this DRS.

    It will get to a stage enough will be enough and only time will tell with more rubbish piling up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,855 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I'm not sure they're allowed to do that. I'd be raising a complaint with re-turn… Mind you they'll probably fob you off and tell you to contact Lidl CS as they literally built a system without a warranty



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,855 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    We should not have bin companies, this is a service the council should be running. But a simple solution to the latest problem created by the greens is to make the bin companies part of the re-turn scheme and give them a share of the profits. If the same logic applies then the price of collections should come down



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭Shan Doras


    I wonder if SF put abolishing this scheme in their manifesto, would they go up in the polls ?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,855 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The scheme doesn't need to be abolished, it needs to be fixed. 4 steps that if a SF policy maker is here should take note of

    1. Remove the deposit and the return and make it like how we return glass bottles, which are currently returned to over 90%
    2. Remove private bin companies from our system and put refuse collection back in council hands. This should also help with illegal dumping
    3. Remove the requirement for barcodes and re-turn logos, should help importers
    4. Allow cans to be crushed so space can be saved

    I can't see anybody thinking these aren't logical steps that people wouldn't vote for but at the same time keeping the rates of return and hopefully recycling high



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,705 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    SF councillors fully supported privatising bin collections, doubt they will go back on it now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭jj880


    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/opinion/simon-bourke-price-of-aluminium-on-the-rise-as-customers-lose-out-in-the-recycling-war/a1433655958.html

    Some quotes from behind the paywall:

    And having wholeheartedly embraced this initiative, declared it the cleverest, most innovative thing the Government has done in aeons, the customers are now set to be penalised with a price hike from the aforementioned bin companies. Yes, that’s right, by taking our bottles and cans to the machines, by tussling with the slot, fumbling with the buttons, and doing what we’re told, we are now set to see yet another household bill increase.
    ...
    For my part at least, the irony is that I haven’t once used the DRS, have continued to feed that shiny aluminium and PET plastic into the recycling bin, keeping the bin collectors in a job and sustaining the circular economy without receiving a cent in return. Now, despite my diligence, my loyalty, I am to be penalised for the actions of others, for the creation of a scheme I wanted no part of.
    ...
    Of course the reason why the DRS was introduced in the first place was because we weren’t recycling enough, because we needed to be lured into doing it with promises of pocket money, rewarded for our efforts in saving a planet which we previously didn’t care about.
    Already there’s talk of increasing the bounty associated with these cans and bottles, giving people even more incentive to save the planet, more incentive to take part in a scheme which we’re repeatedly told is one of the great success stories of our time. We’re going to need that bounty, need those receipts, once the binmen start hiking up the prices.
    Only in Ireland could something so straightforward be made so complicated, could the redistribution of used materials become a source of so much contention.

    Some good points raised. An amazing exercise in masochism all round.

    Full article for those interested:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The Minister says that the Irish Waste Management Association have provided no evidence that their members need to increase their prices. He has asked them for that evidence, but got no response. There is nothing on their website about the issue. I wonder where the journalist got his information? He did not name the company claiming to be planning a price increase.

    https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22412187/

    https://iwma.ie/news-press-releases/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 945 ✭✭✭bog master


    Jaysus cop on. If any business loses a % of their income stream they will increase their prices. Whether it is 15 million or 5 million is irrelevant. Maybe ask ReTurn what is their estimated proceeds from their sale of recyclables.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    This is a list of current charges from one of the waste companies. People using DRS won't need to have their green bin collected as often as at present. So they will be able to save money. The weight wouldn't be the issue with empty plastic bottles and aliminium can, it is the bulk that fills the bin.

    Waste (Black) Bin €12.50 per lift up to 45kg thereafter an additional €0.23/kg. Recycle (Green) Bin €6 per lift up to 20kg thereafter an additional €0.15/kg. Organic (Brown) Bin €7.50 per lift up to 45kg thereafter an additional €0.18/kg.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You've cherry picked one waste company. Many people are on different packages. Besides, those prices are based on the green bin containing valuable recyclables, which are likely cross subsidising other the price for other bins. The rules of the game have changed.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I have seen no details from any company of new prices. Have you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I have seen no details from Return of exactly how much of their funding cones from sale of recyclables?

    Have you?

    Yet didnt you list official info on the scheme that it was significant enough to be listed as specific category of its funding?

    This is not small change.

    Obviously that is going to impact bin collection prices.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Just because a opinion piece in a newspaper says that, doesn't make it true. There is nothing obvious about it. The companies need to provide the evidence to the Minister that he is asking for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is obvious. It is even noted in posts you have made on this thread listing Returns sources of funding. True or false?

    Not a good look is it when you are contradicting your own posts?

    Why dont Return provide the information on their expected funding from the items?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    What rules have changed?

    I never signed a contract with a bin company to provide them with a certain number of cans per lift.

    Now they want me to pay an increased charge for not lifting something that I never put in the bin in the first place.

    This has a way more to run.

    (just for the record up to the introduction of DRS I have always put my cans in the bins at the local civic amenity site)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I dont know what universe you think this is a rule or how the premise of that question has any relevance.

    15 million euro of funding gone from the bin companies.

    Do you expect them to print money?

    Collect your bins at a loss?

    In the real world these are the economic realities that lead to price increases.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Cry me a river for privately owned bin companies banking their profits in The Isle of Man.

    In the real world why should it be me who pays them for not collecting something they never collected in the first place.

    It's a rule of mine not to be ripped off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If it was a publicly run scheme funded by LPT the same loss of revenue stream would impact funding of the whole operation.

    So spare us the irrelevent venting about profits.

    This was explained to you already on the thread and you had no credible response then either.

    They are not just collecting your bin. They are collecting tens of thousands and enough of those bins had recyclables sufficient to provide revenue to help fund the operation.

    Do you think you as an individual get some bespoke specific pricing?

    You dont get that for bin charges.

    You dont get that for LPT.

    Thats the real world.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Let them sort it out with whoever they have a contract with that says they get certain recyclables.

    Neither I nor all those tens of thousands have any such contract with them.

    That's the real world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If they were in breach of contract in selling on the recyclables you should sue them.

    If they are in breach of contract in increasing prices to cover the lost revenue, you should sue them.

    I think you will find the contract entitles them to increase prices. Either you keep paying or change supplier. As this has affected all bin companies thats not a real solution either.

    Would you expect bin companies to keep collecting your bins if you stop paying?

    If you were supplying a shop and could no longer provide the product, would you expect the shop to keep paying you?

    So in what real world would you expect the company buying the recyclables to keep paying the bin companies?

    Baffling nonsense.

    The reality is the bin companies will get the 15 million back - if not from the government or Return then in higher charges to customers.

    No one has given any credible or coherent alternative. Tangents about contracts and profits are irrelevancies that dont change that reality.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Would you stop, I'm not suing anyone.

    I'm just putting the bins out like always with no cans in them.

    What's really baffling is that you are so keen to see me and all the other households pay the bin companies for not collecting our cans.

    We have already under legislation started paying deposits, separately storing and returning cans to RVMs.

    And, as has been said many times here, at no little inconvenience.

    We are doing our bit to help Ireland reach the 2030 targets.

    Is that not enough without this preposterous suggestion that we should all pay "disappointment money" to the bin companies?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,808 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    A few posts in this thread have outlined price increases by bin companies since the turn of the year, myself included, local operator increasing monthly fee by 1.75. Am still awaiting an email as to why but again the logic as to why would be straightforward in the context of this thread, whether they will state it or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭ballyargus


    I refuse to use them. That said I'm buying wine now instead of cans. Hey ho



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    That was probably to do with the levy, which they would have been entitled to put back on customers. But there is zero evidence that they are suffering any losses from DRS. It looks like they got their friends in the press to put out vague stories about an increase, but they failed to go through the proper channels to present evidence to the Minister first.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/75262-introduction-of-new-environment-levies-will-incentivise-recycling-and-help-ireland-meet-our-eu-waste-targets/#

    The legislation introduces a waste recovery levy of €10 per tonne (or 1,000kg), and a €10 increase to the existing "landfill levy" to €85 per tonne. As the levies apply only to ‘black’ bin waste, householders can manage the impact of this charge by sorting their waste and reusing and recycling as much as possible to minimise their overall household waste charges.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,650 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ah yeah, but some won't be making out like bandits then. So this isn't going to happen any time soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,650 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It's you because Fine Gael privatised our waste collection out to a bunch of cowboys who only care about their bottom line. That's why YOU'LL end up paying more when THEIR profits are affected. Re-turn are now making bank on items like aluminium because of this idiotic scam and the likes of Greyhound, Panda, City Bin, Thorntons, etc aren't going to just shrug their shoulders at that. They'll recoup their loses by increasing their charges…and no doubt stick an extra few cent on top of that as well, just because.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 945 ✭✭✭bog master


    Even Repak now ReTurn recognized that waste collectors would suffer from DRS Scheme !

    To: Department oftheEnvironment,ClimateandCommunications. From: Repak Ltd

    Date:12November2020

    Subject:DepositReturnScheme-ConsultationonPotential ModelsforIreland

    AttachedpleasefindRepak'ssubmissiontothepublicconsultationprocess,publishedon2OctoberbyDECC,on Deposit ReturnScheme—ConsultationonPotential Models forIreland.

    BestRegards,

    RepakLtd

    RedCow InterchangeEstate 1BallymountRoad Clondalkin

    "The general view of the waste industryis DRS is a significant threat to their businesses.A hybrid model could alleviate some of the concerns which the waste industry has in relation to the perceived negatlve impact,which DRS may have, on the current kerbside collection system.

    At any rate the hybrid model would, minimise lost revenue to the waste industry and provide an alternative service provision which the waste industry could provide and receive the financial reward."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    It goes back to 1977 when Fianna Fail got the biggest majority in the history of the State. And was the last one party government we had. Based on their promise to abolish Domestic Rates and Road/Motor Tax. Rates were a property tax to fund waste collection and water services by Local Authorities. It was a disaster for local government funding, and has had a long history of sorting out since. Privitisation of waste collection was a logical outcome. And the new version of Property Tax we got more recently. Only water remains to be added to the list.

    SF promise to abolish Property Tax (they call it the Family Home Tax). We will see how that goes if they get in. They never did anything to abolish it in the North.

    https://irishelectionliterature.com/2010/10/18/from-1977-the-fianna-fail-manifesto-an-action-plan-for-national-recovery-abridged-version/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,855 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    General Election before March… I'd say make it a point on the doorsteps and you never know



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,855 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    SF promise to abolish Property Tax (they call it the Family Home Tax). We will see how that goes if they get in. They never did anything to abolish it in the North.

    Slightly off topic but SF are in a power sharing agreement with the DUP up north so they don't have control over every aspect of life there. They successfully kept water charges out of the north as part of the power sharing and property taxes in the north pay for things like education, health and roads. They have things like free education, free healthcare and proper roads up there as a result

    It's illogical to compare SF performance in the north to what they could achieve if they come into power in Leinster House

    To go back on topic, I think after their recent election result the DRS might be open to change by them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    SF are on it already.

    https://vote.sinnfein.ie/government-inaction-at-the-heart-of-the-dysfunction-in-irelands-privatised-waste-collection-system-darren-orourke-td/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Being in a coalition does not stop a party from pursuing their own policies. The biggest scandal in the North is that no party challenged the power of the mansion owners. Until recently. Multi million Pound mansions pay the same as someone with a £400K house.

    SF will be in coalition here as well, if they abandon the nonsense that getting the most votes is the same as a majority. So I expect that they will quietly sideline the promise to abolish the Family Home Tax.

    "Capping 

    The maximum capital valuation for a domestic property is £400, 000. For any house valued over £400, 000, LPS disregards the additional value when calculating rates. "

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/most-valuable-ni-homes-face-a-huge-bill-if-the-domestic-rates-cap-abolished/a1366846488.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,650 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I'm well aware of what FF did with regards to rates. But our current disastrous issues with waste collection stems from 2012 and we should never have hocked off that public service (nor any public service) into private hands.

    It never works out for the consumer.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,475 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Then you will also know that Local Authorities, not the private sector tried to charge for their bins first. But protestors stopped this happening. Privitisation was the only thing left.

    Sinn Fein would actually do well to campaign against all sorts of direct taxes like the Property Tax. This is what is popular with property owners, who tend to vote in bigger numbers than other sections of the community. The FF abolition was known as the Retired Teachers vote. People with big houses and big Rates bills, but with smaller incomes in their retirement. You will also remember that a few years after that we had the Tax marches, PAYE workers rebelling against 60% income tax being used to replace the Domestic Rates income stream.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    Wonder what's the most am individual has made to date? We are at around 20 euro with about 1/3 coming from picking up items out walking. I'd take those living near stadiums etc could make a nice bit after events



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,650 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Selling off public services to private interests never works out for Joe public, end of. We ALWAYS end up paying more for less.

    But I remember that you were all on for the privatisation of our water services a number of years ago, so that fact is probably wasted on you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭howiya


    Why wait till 2030? Obviously there will still be items dumped that don't go into the waste stream but if there was a mechanism for the bottles or cans recovered by the bin companies to be transferred to Re-turn in return for deposits I imagine we'd already be close to or exceeding 90%.

    I'm not suggesting we should pay the bin companies disappointment money. The reality is some consumers have chose to forego their deposits. It makes no difference to them whether the bin company claims it back or whether Re-turn keep it.

    And Ireland gets to meet its targets. Win win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,705 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Saw a fella in the city centre today with a grabber and bag of cans he had found on the streets - guess in one way this is a good thing that he is kinda cleaning up the city but sucks that people just throw stuff on the ground because DCC have removed as many bins as they can get away with (since privatisation)

    I am of the opinion that every household should pay a charge that covers bins, street cleaning etc - go to almost any European city and you would never see the amount of dumping that happens in this country (then again there is a different mentality there as well)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭Daith


    Evert household should pay a charge. Like some sort of property charge. Or property tax. Hmm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,938 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I think the only reason people are against the Property Tax because it is not indirect, the DRS can at least be spun as "protecting the environment"/ "the common good"/ "saving the planet" or whatever.

    But my suspicions were proved correct that "protecting the environment" is mainly a money making scheme by vested interests. When the bin companies started warning about potential increased charges.

    It reminds me of the TV series the Sopranos, they were involved in "waste disposal" as well! There is money to be made in it. All the vested interests want a piece of it.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Theres plenty of initiatives and incentives you could give to encourage the population to help the environment. But no ,It seems to be a charge or a tax in this country. Nothing else seems to come to the minds of our political class.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭Shan Doras


    I wonder what percentage of those kids fruit juice bottles sold in McDonald's end up getting returned for a deposit refund by the customer? Anytime I've been in McDonald's I've seen 100% end up in the bin. I can't figure out why restaurants weren't exempt but then airport departure areas aren't either.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There were reports earlier on the thread of people tried to return those smaller e.g. 250ml bottles and machines rejecting them.

    McDonalds should have been obliged to take these back.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,655 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I'm not saying we should wait until 2030.

    The sooner we reach the target the better.

    For your suggestion to work the mechanism would have to be developed to dovetail bin collection and DRS.

    As I have said before I don't think people will continue to forgo deposits in the longer term.

    That's just a hunch and I may be wrong but in the domestic situation I can't see them throwing money away forever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭jj880


    Still trying to conflate not using a frustrating half baked DRS scheme designed to make people "forgo" deposits with "throwing money away" is pretty pathetic at this stage.

    Post edited by jj880 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    Theres a nack to depositing them. Took me a while to get it. You kind of have to more fling the little bottles in more than place them on the belt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭Shan Doras


    Another thing I've experienced is shops parking trolleys of stock directly in front of the machine, it would make one go Victor Meldrew



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