E-Scooter Legislation From Monday 19-May-2024

...Ghost...

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0515/1449245-escooter-regulations/

Well, this has been a long, long time coming.

Nobody under 16 to use scooter in public place.

I think that's a good idea, especially for powerful e-scooters, but good luck enforcing it.

Limited to 20kg.

Stupid idea. This means tiny battery packs and scooters of this capacity just won't last the test of time.

Limited to 20km/h.

Again, stupid. Even the old, basic ones do 25km/h. The options will be almost Nil and so nearly everyone on an e-scooter will be breaking the law.

I used to use an e-scooter for the last mile of my journey in DCC, or to pop around to the shops. This was 5 or 6 years ago when they started to become popular. It was a Xiaomi 365 which would get to an indicated top speed of 22km/h with my 100kg on it. It would only reach 25km/h with a much lighter person on it.

So, has Eamon messed up again?

What do you think of the new legislation and e-scooters in general?

the_amazing_raisin

Honestly I think the kids are fine, it's the adults who seem to cause more accidents on scooters

I agree with limiting power and speed, but we should have just stuck to the 25km/h and 250W limit for light vehicles

Overall I think it's a pointless exercise since teenagers will just move to more powerful e-bikes instead

Something similar happened in Paris when they banned E-scooter rentals, everyone just moved to E-bikes within a month

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058351822/e-scooter-legislation-from-monday-19-may-2024

I do not see anything stupid with any of that at all. The weight limit is actually very clever. It means if it's over the weight it can be taken and impounded by Garda although how they will know I do not know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122142860#Comment_122142860

Any more powerful than 250kw or faster than 25kph and you have to have insurance, tax and a driving license. So not going to happen here.

d15ude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058351822/e-scooter-legislation-from-monday-19-may-2024

There won't be any enforcement…

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145863#Comment_122145863

Time will tell. It won't go down too well at a time if great focus on road safety, serious incidents if there is new legislation aimed at improving it for vulnerable uses that AGS then don't enforce. This should be a dead easy enforcement, if the will is there.

There is only so long Harris can continue to play let's pretend roads policing.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145893#Comment_122145893

Don't know how you can think there will be enforcement TBH. Practically every single powered scooter you've seen up to now has been illegal. Gardaí could pick up basically any scooter and confiscate it - except there was absolutely zero enforcement. From Monday, that's not going to be the case. A significant proportion of scooters will be legalised, meaning identifying illegal use becomes much, much harder.

So the Gardaí were doing no enforcement when it was simple, and we're supposed to believe that now it's more difficult, enforcement levels are going to go up? Has there been any investment that would suggest that? Is there a new scooter unit? Have the RPU received new staff or funding?

This isn't a criticism of the Gardaí BTW. Road policing throughout the country is a joke, and it's very clearly been made that way by multiple governments over the decades. Real enforcement would require massive investment in the Gardaí, combined with clear leadership and policy directive from the government. Instead we get new laws that won't be enforced piled up on top of old laws that aren't enforced.

Kaisr Sose

I am not saying there will be enforcement...I said let's hope ...

I agree major investment needed in AGS. For a so called rich country, rolling in budget surpluses, we have the police force of a poor country.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145854#Comment_122145854

Yeah my point was that since everywhere else seems to limit E-scooters to 250W and 25km/h then we should just do the same

Now with the limit being set to 20km/h, there would need to be a separate SKU for Ireland. Given we aren't even a rounding error in terms of the global market, a lot of brands wouldn't even bother

So it'll be up to Irish sellers to modify the scooters before selling them. Presumably they can just reprogram the controller, but it'll still be added labour and cost for the end user

I'm guessing the weight limit was chosen since it's easy to measure and it's a rough abstract for power. A lower powered scooter is probably not going to want to carry a whole load of extra bloat around, and the guards can just use a basic scales to check it rather than any special equipment

I know the Dutch police have started using a mini dynamometer to perform power checks. It's about the size of a treadmill, however they'd likely be rare enough that you couldn't have one at every checkpoint

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145854#Comment_122145854

It is stupid, because it limits the battery capacity and therefore the range, making them unusable for anything other than short commutes. Adding a weight limit of 20kg is totally unnecessary and pointless. Limiting the motor output, or speed is where the focus should be, but at 20kph, they've scored an own goal there. This will result in less e-scooter users obeying the law, because the choice is extremely limited within the confines of the law. Ireland being such a small market, manufacturers won't bother producing anything to fit into our market.

I'll go back to the Xiaomi M365. It comes in under the weight limit, but the result is a piddly real world range due to the small battery. The range reduces significantly after a few months of use and in cold weather. It's also illegal, as it reaches speeds of up to 25km/h.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146659#Comment_122146659

Ireland being such a small market, manufacturers won't bother producing anything to fit into our market.

Someone said that Germany also limit scooters to 20kph in this thread or the other thread on E-Scooters. So I guess it will just mean Ireland gets the same scooters that Germany gets from Monday on.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145991#Comment_122145991

Why would the Gardaí bothering enforcing the law when judges just throw out the case?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-dismisses-no-insurance-case-against-e-scooter-owner/a392870282.html

Enforcement should be easier now as they can easily see if the escooter can exceed 20km/h and weight it to see if it's over weight, not that they even need to do that as it's up to the user to prove it's legal not the Gardaí to prove it's illegal, or a person is using an emoped. All we need is the judges to back them up if they start enforcing the law.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146659#Comment_122146659

 This will result in less e-scooter users obeying the law, because the choice is extremely limited within the confines of the law.

You can't get worse than 100% non compliance. 100% of current escooter users are not obeying the law, this new law will mean that some people will actually be legal.

csirl

Is there any e-bike legislation coming into force? Some of the e-bikes today are heavier and faster than an oldstyle Honda 50. I was driving just under the limit in a 60kph zone recently and was easily overtaken by one!

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146718#Comment_122146718

Wrong. German legislation allows e-scooters to be up to 55kg. So while the speed restriction is 20kph, the range and therefore usefulness is far superior to what would be available here. I don't know of any e-scooters that meet the criteria being set out here…certainly none that will be of any use in the real world.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146961#Comment_122146961

Ryan doesn't want to do anything which might hinder people using e-bikes…even if they can travel at 80kph and weight as much as a small car.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146039#Comment_122146039

Germany which is a larger market has a limited speed of 20kmph with a tolerance of 10% i.e. 22kmph and that is the top speed of my legal e-scooter and the certificate of conformity is needed in order to buy mandatory insurance number plate.

The top assisted speed of my pedelec is 25kmph which is the top speed allowed by the regulations in order to avoid the need for insurance, helmet and testing.

My scooter is under 16kg with a range of 33km, lights, side reflectors and a bell to warn pedestrians on shared pavements.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146961#Comment_122146961

There is. All th E focus is on scooters but new rules for e-bikes from Monday too according to this at gov.ie

https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/5e95b-e-bikes-e-mopeds-and-e-scooters/#:~:text=From%2020%20May%202024%2C%20users,categories%20for%20light%20electric%20vehicles.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147486#Comment_122147486

There was a one off comment in the Dail debates months ago about those and then nothing, they just mentioned bla bla EU in the answer and then nothing.

L1e-A E-Moped still pedal assisted no throttle but upto 1kW, and just need to register, a proper motorcycle helmet, and whatever motor tax which is hopefully low. Can see delivery and cargo versions of that doing well.

L1e-B e-Mopeds pretty much just L1e with pedals (or putting the ped back in moped), up to 4kW with all the rules for mopeds apply. No need for insurance if pedal assisted only.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146961#Comment_122146961

Was just the other day crossing a road with a green man, transit van stopped at the lights and one of those larger ebikes (with the chunky wheels) with the uber eats things on the back flew through the red light skimming past my nose - he obviously could not see anyone crossing but didn't give a damn, if I'd been 2 secs earlier he would have smashed in to me. This was me this time but I've seen it many times with walking to and from work every day. They are no different than scooters in my mind.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147604#Comment_122147604

they are motorbikes not E-Bikes. The motor operates regardless of the pedals not moving. And they exceed 25kmh and 250w

*this is their actual classification, they require tax, insurance, licence and helmet

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147011#Comment_122147011

From a design standpoint, 55kg for a scooter seems insane

My cargo bike is over 30kg and already a pain in the ass if you need to lift it up anywhere

With 55kg you'd have enough for a range of hundreds of kilometres. Realistically, how many people are going to want to go from Dublin to Cork on an E-scooter?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147021#Comment_122147021

Believe it or not, the Minister for Transport doesn't order the guards around

They don't need extra legislation for e-bikes. The existing limits already define that anything over 250W or 25km/h isn't a light vehicle, and so needs to be road legal with tax and insurance

The problem with e-bikes is enforcement, the guards are unable or unwilling to perform checks on e-bikes

I agree there needs to be more enforcement, but given the guards are already spread thin across other areas, I don't see it happening soon

gossamerfabric

s-pedelec looks very attractive because it doesn't need insurance. They could become the Honda 50/Moped of this generation. Yes, you need an AM licence and yes, you need motor tax but they are not major obstacles where as the need for insurance has killed the conventional Moped market in Ireland. With the push for 30kmph zones it might end up being the quickest way to get around within the canals in Dublin. I would still keep my pedelec as I can get up to 30kmph out of it after the motor switches off without raising a sweat and it is legal for bus lanes and bike lanes. https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/293234/b26becea-4b39-4055-ab69-affe8264459e.pdf#page=null

phester28

what most people have missed is that scooter for our Huge Irish market need.

1. Both wheel braking. - currently there that would be less than 1% of all manufactures

2 Lighting requirements are written weirdly as well as front and back reflectors (I guess they could be added to current Escooters)

3 having a design limit of 20kph (not a speed limit) would also limit the pool of escooters to about 1% of all available market scooters. We are the only country in the world to have this design rule.

There are also wheel size restrictions but I dont think that is an issue

What I dont knnow is what happens if you are guilty of an offense. you dont need a license so no points should be applied. but it does not say if its an auto confiscation or court or what.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147830#Comment_122147830

55kg does seem a bit high, but batteries are heavy. The kilos pile up fast as you add range which then results in the need for a thicker, heavier frame.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122148640#Comment_122148640

Maybe they just want to discourage their use and divert to e-bikes (pedal assist)?

Our roads are crap for the small wheels on E scooters. Even on those with perfect surfaces, they look very unstable, or else it's the people on them that cannot keep them stable.

Give me a larger wheeled bike any day, plus you get to sit down!

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122148640#Comment_122148640

German scooters are 20kmph plus/minus 10% tolerance. A german approved e-scooter would be legal in Ireland.

Mine is regenerative on one wheel and friction on the other.

bell on scooter is very important too.

Seats on e-scooters are allowed so long as they are not fixed and can be removed.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147011#Comment_122147011

these are 55kg scooters. I wouldn’t call them an EScooter. And are definitely not what is mean to yo be included in the act. The seat alone rules them out as EScooters

They are scooters on par with Vespas as opposed to push scooters

https://kelstar.ie/citycoco-1500w-city-scooter/

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150411#Comment_122150411

Here is a 52kg scooter. The motor could be down-sized or speed restricted, but this is more what I had in mind.

https://www.voromotors.com/collections/long-range-electric-scooter/products/wolf-king-gt

It has 2 large battery packs (many scooter come with the ability to expand the battery packs) which adds a lot of weight to the vehicle. It's also a well built frame, something I think is very important for safety and stability for the rider and others.

This is why adding such a low weight restriction is idiotic. We will have cheap, flimsy pieces of crap that are legal, but are prone to splitting in half when hitting a pebble. Something like the one linked above, or pictured below would be a much better and safer scooter with speed restricted. It would cover many peoples commutes in cold temperatures without concern of range.

By the way, I'm not an e-scooter owner, but I owned one years back.

prawnsambo

I would have thought it would be easy to speed limit one of these through software?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150685#Comment_122150685

It should be doable, but it's likely the shop will be doing it instead of the factory, so it'll probably be slower and more expensive with that cost passed onto the customer

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150685#Comment_122150685

Yes, that's right in most cases. So while I personally think 20km/h is too restrictive, the real issue is the weight restriction which severely limits the range by method of reduced battery capacity.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150639#Comment_122150639

100kmh. In no way should they be ever used on public roads.

Battery packs are not as heavy aa you make out , unless you want to use a lead acid battery a 1kWh battery will

Only add 7kgs

Also the raised suspension means the centre of gravity is higher. Any bump/ pothole etc and you’ll be on your ear

the_amazing_raisin

Looks like they've clarified the guidelines for e-bikes as well

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0517/1449835-e-bikes/

250W max continuous power with more allowed for short bursts, pedal assist only and motor cuts out above 25km/h

Anything above that requires tax and insurance and must be road legal

I was amused that the RSA doesn't think it's time to talk about the quality of bike lanes. When will it be time, because around me some of the bike lanes look more like an off-road circuit?

Anyway I wonder if it'll be effective at all without significant Garda presence

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150777#Comment_122150777

they have another class: which requires them

To be registered and taxed but not insured

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/ee21c-e-moped/

of it has a throttle it needs insurance

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/c2a3c-l1e-b-e-mopeds/

also e-scooters can not have seats

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8a0ba-e-scooters/

the_amazing_raisin

It'd be cool if there was a way to switch between low and high power modes on an e-bikes

So you could go to pedal assist mode to use the bike lanes legitimately, and then could switch to higher power when you want to use the roads

Personally I like using my e-bikes as a pedal bike, but sometimes I can't help but envy the ones just motoring along

Of course, you'd still need to be road legal even when using the bike lanes

I imagine it's technically doable, but legally it'd be a dead end since it would be ripe for abuse

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150760#Comment_122150760

Please read my posts before quoting them and following up with nonsense I never said, or implied.

I posted that scooter as an example of range, not for speed. I said as much in the same post, second line, first paragraph.

The stated range is 50 miles (80km) but the real range would be closer to half that in the real world. Using your own math, 1kWh of Li-Ion battery weighs 7kg. It's actually more than 8kg, but let's say 7kg. So, the 2.5kWh in that scooter weighs 21kg. The battery alone therefore weighs more than the total allowable weight of the scooter. How am I suggesting the batteries weigh more than I am making out? The figures are easily accessible for anyone to see.

The raised suspension (on that model…which again was a weight example) has pros and cons. On our shítty roads, there are more pros to a raised suspension, which by the way is adjustable on any decent scooter.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150903#Comment_122150903

40km range is overkill. Just get a bike e-bike they are much more comfortable and safer for roads outside and inside urban areas

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150955#Comment_122150955

Overkill for who? When I commuted from the Dub subs to the city centre, it was about 12km each way, 24km return. After 2 years of daily use, you would want a decent buffer to keep the scooter working for your commute, so 40km range is not overkill. If I had an e-scooter at the time capable of doing that, at 25km/h, I would have left the car behind most days when I commuted to the CC.

Some people prefer bikes, while other prefer scooters. A scooter was much more comfortable for me. Safety for one over the other is debatable. Pros and cons again.

And again, I don't own a scooter, or a bike. I am speaking in general.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122148640#Comment_122148640

What I dont knnow is what happens if you are guilty of an offense. you dont need a license so no points should be applied. but it does not say if its an auto confiscation or court or what.

If it doesn't meet the criteria of a Personal Powered Transport it means that it's a Powered Two Wheeler and you do need a licence for them so you can get penalty points and fine.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151036#Comment_122151036

the correct categories are here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/5e95b-e-bikes-e-mopeds-and-e-scooters/#:~:text=From%2020%20May%202024%2C%20users,categories%20for%20light%20electric%20vehicles.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150902#Comment_122150902

I have zero envy of those on so called e-bikes that are just moving along with no pedalling, sometimes at very high speed and sometimes on pavements too. I wonder how much it will cost to insure them.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151341#Comment_122151341

Yeah well whatever about the riders, the bikes still look like a lot of fun

It's important to remember that the problem of bikes and scooters misbehaving on roads existed long before electric versions came along

You give people a fast way of bypassing traffic, then some of them will be more enthusiastic about how they do the bypassing

This should be stopped by proper road policing, so it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few months

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151341#Comment_122151341

mopeds, not E bikes

lots of a scum bags with scramblers versions flying around parks dealing drugs

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/c2a3c-l1e-b-e-mopeds/

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151668#Comment_122151668

I said so called e-bikes, meaning not e-bikes.

Kaisr Sose

Agree with what will happen in next few months. I doubt vey much they are prepared. There is no info campaign abour the need for a licence, tax or insurance, and the insurance companies are not promoting insurance for them either. Even if you want to be compliant, how do you do it?

My problem with these mopeds is that they brought loads of people with no idea of safety, rules or just common sense onto the roads, mixing with regular cyclists. Without these non legal E things, they would never be on the road as most were always too lazy to cycle.

They have given all genuine, rules of the road abiding cyclists (of which there are many) a bad rep. Motorists just see the bike and 'all cyclist mentality' creeps in.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151797#Comment_122151797

What I would love to see is a proper licensing and insurance system in place for e-mobility for a certain motor power, or speed capability. As has been mentioned earlier, the government and insurance industry have pretty much killed the legal use of 50cc mopeds. 20-30 years ago, they were plentiful, legal and insured for a reasonable price. I had one when I was 16-18 and my insurance was in the region of £300. Tax was about £50. It gave me the freedom to commute to work without relying on our crappy public transport system.

Give people the option to properly register, tax and insure these. Have the limit at 80kmph, which is about what a 50cc moped is capable of. Make it compulsory to wear helmets, and have working lights, indicators and horn. Have license plates on them. Have a simpler licensing requirement that doesn't mean the user would need CBT lessons, but would need to pass a basic test. It wouldn't be perfect, but would be a whole lot better than what we have now and what we will soon have.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151847#Comment_122151847

50cc is closer to 65kmh unless you Mod them.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151847#Comment_122151847

How would people pass the basic test without lessons? The reason why IBT was brought in was because too many people were getting on bikes with no clue how to use them, IBT teaches them the basics. If you don't want lessons, and a test, you can stick below 25km/h.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151864#Comment_122151864

The mopeds I owned were a Suzuki Katana and a Gilera DNA. The tope speed on these was 80km/h. I never modified my mopeds. They were restricted to 50km/h until the first service which was about 1k miles.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152183#Comment_122152183

Without giving it in depth thought, I would propose a day in the classroom to cover all the safety and rules followed a tailored theory test and followed by a short practical test in a controlled environment.

The reason is two fold.

1. The same rules for e-bikes and e-scooters largely apply to the non motorised variants.
2. It would encourage and enable a safer use of these vehicles prior to moving onto the current class of mopeds/motorbikes which require tax and insurance and a real license. More of the former would have gained real road experience before jumping onto the much faster latter.

Of course this is just an off the top of my head suggestion and would need ironing out, but it’s a good start and is far better than what has been brought in which will lead to many breaking the new laws and no way to bring the powerful scooters into the legal fold.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152401#Comment_122152401

the top speed of the katana was about 42 mph or 67km. Unless you include going down hills 😂

The speed limit in cities is 50kmh or 30kmh.

The top speed of the DNA 50 is 29mph or 47kmh.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152514#Comment_122152514

I owned both of these, including a Yamaha Aerox. I know what top speeds I reached.

82 on the katana.

77 on the dna.

81 on the aerox.

these were on the flat straight, coast road, Sutton where the speed indicator is to this day.

Now, if someone is fat, that will reduce the top speed of course.