Can an employer get a potential employee to take a language proficiency test before hiring them.

Clashmore

Hi All,

I work in a care setting with people with Autism, recently the company I work for has hired staff whose first language is not English and who have poor English. This is causing frustration for the people we work with and other staff as both staff and the people we are working with are unable to communicate with the effectively due to a poor grasp of English. This has been highlighted to management in the centre. Can an employer in the private sector request that a potential employee take and pass and English language proficiency test prior to starting work.

Thomasirl123

I don't see why not when lots of companies do aptitude tests.

Wouldn't the level of English be clear from the interview though?

JamBur

Absolutely positive that they can, and they should if the proficiency is in doubt!

Rubberchikken

We have this issue in our workplace but she to a number of issues, being fussy about proficiency in English isn't high on the list.

It does impact on the communication and relationship between employees and those they look after.

It's actually very frustrating for the residents as most have a high level of dementia and just simply can't cope with lack of verbal understanding along with other things.

It's been raised in our workplace but to no avail.

stargazer 68

Surely at interview its obvious how good or poor their communication is. We reject candidates all the time if their English is not good enough.

Our residents need to understand the staff. And our staff need to communicate with each other. We have a huge mix of nationalities so good English is vital

Tippman24

One of my nieces went for a job interview a few years ago. She mentioned in her CV that she knew some German. As part of the process, had to have a full conversation with two native German speakers for 30 minutes.

It’s a very basic requirement to speak English in a way everyone can grasp and to understand what is being said by other parties and clients. You can’t get a job as an international pilot without it. You shouldn’t have a job where communication in the local language is absolutely key to the role.

Having other languages is great too, as more clients these times may have another language as their first one and may revert back when they get dementia etc.

SuperBowserWorld

I'd never get a job or hire someone if I/they could not communicate with customers or co workers to get the job done.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121893862#Comment_121893862

I totally sympathise.

But in a full-employment world, sometimes the choice is between no workers or workers with inadequate communication skills. Only one of those options gets you closed quickly.

Clashmore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121893542#Comment_121893542

Having other languages isn’t the issue, I think it’s a good thing. The issue is all the people we work with have English as a first and mostly only language so staff need to be able to communicate in English.

Clashmore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894884#Comment_121894884

The problem is workers with inadequate communication skills are putting the workers who can communicate effectively at risk due to the nature of the people we work with.

we are between a rock and a hard place.

28064212

It's not clear why you're the one asking about the legalities of a language test. Have management asked you to provide suggestions on how to get employees with a higher level of English? If not, your job is to report to management the problems that this is causing. It's not to decide how the problem should be fixed

Ted222

It’s perfectly acceptable to state that applicants require a high level of proficiency in the English language and that this will be tested by certain stated means.

The company would be more exposed if they were silent or opaque on the English language requirement and then subsequently fired someone who didn’t measure up to a standard that wasn’t made clear at the outset.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895023#Comment_121895023

I'm not disagreeing with you.

One option gets you closed quickly. The other one can also get you closed, but it takes longer and people may get demoralised, neglected, abused, injured or even killed along the way.

I've had to spend work time coaching colleagues in English. Not a problem when you're working in low-risk IT and no one's going to die.

All we can really offer you is thoughts and prayers though, and the suggestion to keep making management aware of the issues and and solutions you can see.

FWIW, a spoken-language competency test is totally legal, provided spoken language is part of the job, and every candidate has to do it. (There are a good few Irish people who may fail such a test!)

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895328#Comment_121895328

Yep can’t see the point of the question in less the OP is required or empowered to do something about it. Although their solution would be the wrong one in any case as it would be expensive and no very practical. The employer should simply require all staff to demonstrate that they have reached a level of B1 in English and leave it to the individuals to present the appropriate documentation. Native English speakers would easily meet this requirement with their leaving certificate results, GCSE or whatever exam maps to B1.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058340914/can-an-employer-get-a-potential-employee-to-take-a-language-proficiency-test-before-hiring-them

Being understood has to be essential in a care setting.Can't believe someone who doesn't have full competency in English would be given employment.I'm sure the HSE will have an input if/when they inspect the residence.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895683#Comment_121895683

Well there is a massive shortage of healthcare staff all over Europe so it could also simply be a case of the employer having to take what they can get and the HSE is well aware of the issue. I was in the hospital last Monday here in Switzerland and the nurse's German was terrible. I asked her if she spoke an of the other national languages (French or Italian), nope! Talking to my GP later he said - it is what it is, we have to take whatever we get or leave the post empty.

gossamerfabric

In other languages/european countries if applying for a job you would be expected to have a B1,B2,C1,C2 level of language proficiency with proof from one of the recognized international bodies. For medicine or another specialist field you would be expected to the appropriate level of proficiency with proof from one of the international bodies and not some photoshopped certificate.

It is an example of the chaos that is modern Ireland with VISAs thrown about like confetti for everyone and anyone with no checks being done...Ireland is not a serious Country.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895328#Comment_121895328

Well maybe they've raised the issue repeatedly with management and management have fobbed them off saying it be discrimination or something similar.

The OP has now reached a level of frustration where they want to challenge that line.

Or maybe when the OP raises an issue with management they also like to have a workable solution.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895733#Comment_121895733

Certainly not for all jobs in Europe though, and especially in the care sector I've noticed a big push to attract recent immigrants. While I was in Austria a few years ago I attended a placement test for a German language course and about 50% of the test material used examples from the care sector. It struck me at the time as being deliberate.

BrianD3

In before the accusations of racism start. Health and social care workers absolutely should have good English but everyone knows that many don't and this puts lives at risk and impacts on the quality of life for vulnerable people. Employers will claim that they can't get people with good English willing to work for 15 euros an hour on zero hours contracts. Wow, what a surprise.

The nursing home sector is apparently regulated by HIQA yet I don't think I've ever seen anything in a HIQA report flagging poor communication skills of staff or verifying that their communication skills have been tested. The homecare sector is worse again, zero hours contracts are the norm and there is no regulation whatsoever. It's a societal problem rather than a problem with one individual employer, as we know from our history, vulnerable people who have to depend on others or institutions are routinely disrespected, neglected, abused and regarded as a burden. So it is no surprise that say, elderly people with dementia or hearing loss have their lives made considerably worse by health and social care staff who are unable to communicate effectively.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895759#Comment_121895759

I've been on language courses in Germany where Albanian Care Home workers were expected to pass their C1 German Language exam to continue in employment. Someone passing a C1 german language test would not necessarily be fluent to native speaker level but would have a better understanding of grammar than the average blue collar German.

gossamerfabric

I have had the misfortune to need to visit a few care homes recently and they are being staffed by migrants with poor English. A dementia patient will struggle enough to make themselves understood without having to interact with someone who is not fluent in English.

Peregrinus

It's perfectly acceptable to require job applicants to demonstrate proficiency in English (or any other language) if proficiency in that language is an objectively justifiable requirement of the job (and there are many public-facing and customer-facing jobs for which language proficiency clearly is an objectively justifiable requirement). The level of proficiency you require has to be objectively justified also — e.g. you can't demand that someone have Leaving Cert Honours in English for a job that can be done by someone with a basic competence in spoken English and the literacy level of a 12-year old.

You'd have to apply that requirement in a non-discriminatory way; you couldn't select certain candidates by reference to a prohibited characteristic (such as nationality) and require only those candidates to demonstrate their proficiency.

Obviously, if you apply an English-language proficiency requirement to all candidates, that's going to bear more heavily on candidates from a non-English-speaking background than on native speakers; a greater proportion of them will fail to meet the requirement. But that's OK; provided the standard of English you are requiring is objectively justifiable by reference to what the job entails, requiring it of all candidates is not indirect discrimination on the grounds of nationality or ethnicity.

It's not, I think, a fear of discrimination claims that lead to employers not tesing language proficiency. It's that care work is hard, and badly-paid, and the cohort of workers willing to do it is not large. Non-nationals are heavily represented in that cohort. Applying a language proficiency requirement would reduce the pool of avaiable workers still further; the only way to increase it would be to raise pay rates, probably by a fairly signficant amount and/or improve other working conditions to make the job more attractive. This would mean either higher charges for care or lower profits for employers or (quite possibly) both.

BrianD3

it's also a self perpetuating problem - that's what happens when there is a race to the bottom. As it is such a sh*tshow, good workers (reliable, good communicators) leave. As time goes on, the proportion of workers who are competent and can communicate decreases - resulting in an even worse sh*tshow.

It's a big, dirty open secret in health and social care. This could well be the reason why the current government still hasn't managed to regulate the homecare sector despite a tremendous amount of "talk" about doing so and it being in the programme for government. And despite numerous reports from state agencies and in the media about the need for regulation going back at least 14 years.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895733#Comment_121895733

This post should not be taken seriously.

First there is a very big difference between a B1 and a C2 and in most of the EEA a B1 is required for most jobs, a B2 for professional work with a C1 - C2 for advanced academic studies.

Next Ireland applies the exact same standards as all EU member states and in addition to rules agreed with EFAT and are in full compliance with these rules as evidenced by Eurostat.

So stop talking utter nonsense.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895842#Comment_121895842

I very much doubt anyone would disagree with you. But the reality is that all across the EEA there is a great shortage of healthcare staff and if the alternative to taking a less qualified person is nobody, what do you want to do?

Clashmore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895328#Comment_121895328

I have reported it to management and was asked for suggestions of how to improve the situation

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895328#Comment_121895328

It's almost as if some people actually care about their place of work and the people they're providing help and support to, imagine that.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896043#Comment_121896043

I have dated a Serbian medical professional who had to take a specialist language course and a language teacher in the best language school in my city. Employers demand more of their staff here than in Ireland. Those Albanian Care workers were highly motivated and there to cover the syllabus and take the c1 exam to keep their employer off their back. Please allow for the possibility that some people have experience of things that you don't.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896064#Comment_121896064

Not take the vulture capitalist path where the welfare of vulnerable people is involved.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898760#Comment_121898760

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121898766#Comment_121898766

And here we go again! I am fully aware of the various language courses, exams and visa requirements for third countries and so on because it was part of my job for a long time.

But we are not talking about advanced knowledge, university education and high level language requirements here. We are talking about the vast army of people need to take care of those in poor on a daily basis in homes, hospitals and like institutions through out the EEA and expecting them to jump through your hoops when there are plenty of opportunity for them else where is just nonsense. You only have to look at the exodus from the NHS after they got "BREXIT Done" which way the market flows.

gossamerfabric

Yes, here we go again. You are claiming that the sh1t-show that is normal in Ireland is typical of the rest of Europe. Having had to deal with care staff with pidgin english in Irish care homes and hospitals in recent weeks I have no time for your denial of the very serious problem that is obvious for all to see. Your condescension doesn't win any arguments. You are just unfortunate that this time you have come across someone who knows the topic and has themselves had to prepare for, take and pass mandatory language competency tests. You have a decades long reputation of treating other users shabbily on this forum so let's just agree to differ...you can maintain your notions and I will rely upon what I know.

Hotblack Desiato

You don't appear to understand the difference between a visa and a work permit, which really isn't a good place to be starting your claims of superior knowledge from.