2024 Irish Golfer Top 100 courses

blue note

I don't remember the greens being that crazy either. The only hole I remember looking at my putt and thinking there's no way to get this near the hole was on 10. And I thought it was a great hole - a bunker creeps in closer to the fairway from the left the further you go and the fairway slopes into it. I fade the ball so thought great, I've the shape for this hole and nailed my drive. And it just tucked in at the end of the bunker. If you go short from the tee you've loads of room. But if you decide to go for it, you've a challenge. I thought it was a great hole.

Maybe we were lucky with pin placements, but I just don't remember feeling helpless on the greens.

IAmTitleist

I played it in late September and thought the condition on the whole was excellent. Greens were just like any links greens basically, naturally ran a bit slower but pure.

However the greens complexes themselves were a bit mad on some holes which is pretty much my only criticism of the place. The back 9 of Old Tom Morris were the best greens i played on in the 3 days i was at Rosapenna.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860465#Comment_121860465

The back 9 of the Old Tom are holes from the original design. Those greens have bedded in over more than a century.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121858634#Comment_121858634

It's pretty obvious and should not be taken into account but with 3 excellent courses next to each other then each course benefits from it's neighbour, folk will be much more enthused to travel that far to play choice of three courses versus say Carne or Connemara. I think this gives St Pats a boost.

Ironically Cashen and Valley suffer the opposite effect, I think they are two great courses and were it not for BB and RCD they would feature much higher

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859157#Comment_121859157

Kevin your probably the most established golf course reviewer in Ireland - so I obviously have to bow to your expertise and experience.

But I'm probably posting as a normal punter - that has played a good few traditional Links.

Yes of course by definition it is a Links - but it definitely has a look and feel of a place that has been more designed / placed by machinery, as opposed to a more dramatic natural Links course, like Enniscrone or Carne or the front nine in Portstewart - on these course the fairways can have incredible ripples waves and swells. The course feels way more manufactured as opposed to what I'm used to and love. But don't get me wrong - I love all types of courses and particularly Links courses - but St Patrick's pulls you into a new space - that is maybe a great thing - but I've struggled to categorize it - and that is maybe a great thing. We haven't seen anything like it before on these shores. The one course that gives me that feel at times - and a feel I don't always like, is the European club.

On the resort issue - yes the fairways are ridiculously wide. I haven't played great golf in a while - but if you talk to more advanced golfers - that edge of your seat challenge off the tee - is such an important and thrilling aspect of Irish Links golf - it asks you real questions off the tee . In fairness many say Irish courses are crazy and unplayable - but it is a signature of many of them. St Patrick's is doing a different thing - a thing we are not really accustomed to. So this adds to my "feel" above of it not being as Links like as normal.

On the universally liked - I 100 % agree - it was just an interesting discovery I had when I talked over the course with certain golfers. No course is ever universally liked (some get close like Portrush) - but when St Patrick's was jumping up the world list - I was thinking this must be just another level in that regard. But - I'm sure you have come across others that have placed courses above it , or had doubts about it ? On RCD - I think some people just can't handle the blind shots and the tough bunkers and rough - these guys will love St Patrick's - and place it above RCD.

On the greens - I've played the course 3 times - on one occasion they definitely had a growth in them - then next time they were left very long - you say they were good that time - ok , but I've no issue with green issues - as the course is ridiculous young - But - the issue they have is they are up against world standard greens in various other Links and they are being placed in the world rankings at a fairly high level. I've no issue with a young course having issues - natural - but you can't ignore conditions be it Tee Boxes and Greens when it comes to world standards. It is a different category . Your saying the course ranking dropped due to this - It doesn't surprise me - Donegal is one of my favorite places in the world - but it is a harsh place to get top conditions. And the staff levels and cost to do that is very high.

On the 3 putt issue - yes the greens look daft in Augusta - and if they were as bad as they look , I'd say it to Billy Payne himself in the clubhouse over a pint.

If you were on a course that has 12 of the 18 as 3 putt greens - I'll be staying clear - and most golfers I know, when they play a course like that - it definitely is the talk of the night and a big impact on the overall golf experience.

But - to finish on a positive - the best courses in the word - the best Links courses in particular , take way way more than 3 visits - you need to play them 7/8/9/10 times - and then you start knowing them properly - you don't put yourself in the 3 putt area - you are on the right side of the fairway - you land in the right area of the green.

I'm not finished with St Patrick's at all - and it is asking me more questions than I have answers to at the moment.

Golfgraffix

Great debate Kevin and Fix, two opposing but very valid opinions, I think I would side with Kevin on this, but golf is so subjective, that it’s hard to argue a point.

I think that with a great designer like Doak, and that is what he is, maybe the best of an entire generation, that you just have to give in to the way that he wants you to play a golf course. Personally I don’t mind that philosophy being imposed on me, but only when the course holds up.

There is no debating that St Patrick’s is very generous off the tee, it has to be, as Doak has really gone for a precise second shot design philosophy, as he has done in many places. With St Patrick’s, Doak is teasing you into thinking a hole is easier than it is, fairways are wide but missing on the wrong the side of one sets up a difficult shot into well protected greens, not protected in the usual links way by pot bunkers but by really clever pinable areas. Fix is right, there is always the opportunity to three putt, but if you get a good line off the tee, these possible three putts are minimised by options to get a the pin. More than most links courses St Patricks offers so many ways of getting on the right part of the green, and in a lot of cases its not the aerial route. So it makes shot selection on approaches a key factor of how you play the course.

What I loved about the course is that this design philosophy seems to build through the round, until you get to 16, where you are blown away by the views. He has a wonderful quote, no doubt influenced by Heany’s Hope and History, he says that a golf course should “Not repeat but rhyme” and St Patricks does that in spades. The reason I feel Portrush is the best course in the world is that it has its own unique identity, yet every hole feels different but the same (if that makes sense) I think I could play every club there and every type of shot in one round and that is a magical thing. St Patrick’s will be the same in time.

Doaks overarching design philosophy is that of a minimalist, he does not like moving earth if he does not have to, very much like his apprentice Gil Hanse. With a course like St. Patrick’s, that is evident in the greens and the tees. I’ll concede that may have held him back in one or too spots for creating a fairer putting course, 14th green would be a manifestation of that, its the only negative I can really think of.

I’ve read so much on Doak, that I am sure he would love to read you’re point of view Fix, and he would engage with his own views. He has been very often evolved in big spats online over at the Golf Atlas forum. He once said that “I don’t need to play a Nicklaus course to know it wont be higher than a 5/10”. That got the fanboys reeling.

If anyone is interested in design, I would highly recommend reading The Anotomy of a Golf Course by Doak. Or if you would like to read his stinging critique of some of the well known courses his unpublished book called The Confidential Guide to Golf Course. It was only meant for him and his friends but copies are out there.

For me St Patrick’s right now is a top 15 course, and in time it could easily be top 3, its that good. But I do have my rose tinted Tom Doak fanboy glasses on.

FixdePitchmark

Do you mean top 15 of all.the courses you have played ..or a particular location ?

Golfgraffix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869612#Comment_121869612

Good question, I meant Ireland but it would chart pretty high on my world list

Sorbet

I don’t know enough about golf & golf course design to add anything to the debate but can I just say what a pleasure it has been reading your differing opinions in such a well reasoned and respectful way. This is what online debate should look like - thanks for sharing.

Truly whets the appetite for the day when I might play the course myself and I can form my own opinion.

The Big Easy

I haven't played the course yet, but kind of agree with Fix on one point. I believe it's a little silly to put it straight into the top 50 golf courses in the world. For a top 50 course to not be in top condition or at least at the best level it can be in its own rights is slightly ridiculous imo.

There's such a rush with everything in the world now. The course should be allowed to bed in in its own time before being ranked amongst the best courses, some that have been around a hundred years or more.

What's the rush with the ranking? I'd suggest some kind of moratorium before a new course gets ranked personally, but obviously that wouldn't suit marketing purposes.

It smacks of instant gratification to me, no one can let things evolve in their own time anymore.

Anyway I'd love to play it and hopefully will, some day relatively soon, and maybe one day it will be worthy of a very lofty ranking, it's all just a bit rushed for me.

bmay529

In my opinion, having played the three courses in Rosapenna several times, all are great courses. Each is unique in its own right and a different test to each other. My favourite for the moment remains Sandy Hills. Old Tom is pure traditional links with some great holes especially on the "old" back nine. St Patricks is wild in a good way and reminds me in many ways of Carne. The greens in St Pats in my experience have been quite hairy/slow and sometimes it has been difficult to tell where the fairway ends and the green begins. As said previously, it is important to place your approach shot in the vicinity of the flag or face a real risk of a 3 put on some greens. Sometimes when out of position on a big green I would prefer to chip the ball but of course never have. I have more than once said I must bring a putter with lots of loft when playing St Pats. There are many great holes on St Pats but holes 17 and 18 when played off normal tees are a weak in my view for a course of its standing and defined mainly by the deep dips in front of the greens. 18 is just a drive and wedge into the green which really takes the trouble short and long out of play. If played from a tee further back both would be a serious challenge.

Heading to Rosapenna again next month and in October to play the three courses, so looking forward to that.

RoadRunner

This discussion is really making me want to play St Pats 😃

I especially would love to play it without 3-putting. It sounds like a special place. I've played sandy hills and was blown away by it.