GAA LGFA Camogie Association Integration

crusd

Could not see another thread. I see the associations have laid out 2027 as the target for integration of the 3 associations. Certainly will lead to some interesting situations in some clubs and counties.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0220/1433336-gaelic-games-associations-set-2027-as-integration-date/

munchkin_utd

Some counties are more integrated than others, or like to think they are, as you'd have seen with the debacle over the distribution of the Jps 32 million.

I cant imagine that the playing rules will be harmonised, at least not in 3 years.

Youd also need the main GAA congress to soon deal only with common things for all games, so county structures etc, and a new mens congress along with to LGFA or Camogoie ones to deal with mens competitions and playing rules

Harmonisation of transfers and discipline maybe could happen, but good god, in just 3 years?? Maybe thats one that'll take a while!

LubaDriver

Is integration really a good idea? GAA would take an occasional beating in public when LGFA or the Camogie association didn't get their way on something as it stands and they have no part in how they are run. By bringing all three organisations under the one umbrella surely the GAA is just making a rod for its back now whenever a decision, even when justified, discommodes the teams from the former womens associations.

The three are better off operating independently imo.

callaway92

Integration won't happen in the timeline that they want. Too many people will create blockades when they realise their jobs will be made extinct.

There'll be too many disgreements at the time of trying to get expenses for Women to match the expenses for Men. It'll get really, really ugly.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821690#Comment_121821690

The biggest goal of integration is not expenses for the elite inter county player, it is the integration of clubs

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822394#Comment_121822394

That’s gonna be a big surprise to a lot of people when they see fixtures still colliding added to the stuff I listed above.

celt262

It will be carnage trying to sort pitches out for games and training. The ladies organisations in fairness to them currently more or less accept that the facilities are not there's and just get on with it and use whatever pitches are allocated to them.

Once integration comes that will change....

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822825#Comment_121822825

Paraphrasing here but is what you are saying is the ladies should be happy with what they get and not expect equal access? Correct me if I have misrepresented you

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823302#Comment_121823302

No what i'm saying is they have no option but to accept what they get now as i would say over 95% of LGFA clubs don't have there own facilities and are fully reliant on the GAA clubs to look after them as best as they can.

They will expect equal access when the merger happens and and that is when i can see there been some issues for a while especially at County level.

greenspurs

My local club will be amalgamated soon - Hurling , Camogie and to lesser extent GF work very well together, and its a relationship that works well.

That will happen regardless of what happens in Croke Pk .

I do agree that the GAA has a lot to lose, while the other 2 have a lot to gain out of this, but once it happens, and its a year or 3-4 into it, i think it will all work ok.

Uncle Pierre

This post relates to how one of the aims of integration is to bring equality (or at least near equality) between women and men at inter-county level in terms of expenses and other facilities. The justification you usually hear for this is along the lines of "the women put in just as much effort and take it just as seriously, so they deserve the same in return".

Now, some here may have seen a certain result from the National Camogie League last weekend: Wexford 12-20, Antrim 0-4.

Have just read in the local paper here in Wexford this evening that part of the reason for Antrim's drubbing was that they were short 12 of their usual matchday panel of 26.....because those 12 had chosen to go on a hen night instead.

I know this is just one instance with just one team, but seriously, could you imagine 12 members of a men's squad ever going off on a stag instead of playing a match?

Even last year, my own club's junior football team (which is our second team) unexpectedly made it to a county semi-final. It was fixed for the Saturday of what was supposed to be the stag weekend in Liverpool of another local man, who doesn't actually play with us, but who'd be friendly with most of our players. Many of the juniors were supposed to go on it.

We got the match changed to the Friday night, and most of those lads either changed their flights or booked new ones to travel over on the Saturday morning instead. Two of them even decided not to go at all. Only one decided to fly over on the Friday anyway, and he wouldn't have been a guaranteed starter.

Basically, higher levels of commitment shown then in Wexford Junior Football than there was last weekend in a national inter-county competition in camogie.

"But women put in just as much effort and take it just as seriously........." ????

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859374#Comment_121859374

Its about equality of opportunity. That teams wont be disadvantaged through inability to access to facilities or supports. What the Antrim ladies choose to do is between them, their management and their country board. But what top teams in Camogie and ladies football face is not knowing where they are going to train that evening, not having changing facilities, no meals provided after training, or access to physios and a lot more besides. A club level when the one club model hasnt been embraced they are told to be thankful they get the pitch at 9 on a Sunday morning and shut up about it.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859778#Comment_121859778

Equality of opportunity is a different thing.

My post was about equality (or lack of it) of effort and commitment.

Kevhog1988

Out of interest will the GAA/LGFA/Camogie then become joint owners of club facilities or will they still be owned by the gaa club?

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860059#Comment_121860059

There won't be LGFA/Camogie they will be all the one.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859374#Comment_121859374

Where is that result ?

Not on the Camogie Assc website?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860202#Comment_121860202

Here's a post on the Facebook page of The Sunday Game - https://www.facebook.com/TheSundayGame/posts/pfbid02Pa6Gmb8F3ADuikPRums4Pxp1VA3bnABUt1EhE1T7SVBNUCKG67fqDrDt9f24rmz2l

Some of the comments criticise Wexford for not taking it easier on them (!), while others criticise Antrim Camogie County Board. None criticise the 12 players involved for being so uncommitted that they'd rather go drinking on a hen night, despite how many of the comments seem to be from people with an interest in Antrim camogie, and so they'd surely have known about this.

Meanwhile, here's the report from the local paper where I read about it myself -

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/sport/gaa/wexford-did-as-they-pleased-against-depleted-antrim-in-one-sided-national-camogie-league-clash/a1487934453.html

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121859778#Comment_121859778

And for what it's worth, here's one to illustrate levels of effort and commitment at club level.

My own GAA club here in Wexford operates three adult hurling teams each year. Our sister camogie club operates either two or three, depending on the numbers they have in any given year.

Last week, our hurlers had their first on-field training session of the year, after doing earlier sessions in the gym. 41 players took full part in it. A further 11 also attended but either only did a bit of it or else just watched, due to injuries etc. That makes a total of 52.

The following evening, the camogie club had the same pitch at the same time. Ten players turned up.

Again, just one instance in just one place, and I wouldn't tar the entire Camogie Association off the back of it. But it illustrates the point all the same.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860441#Comment_121860441

Jeez ........

thats brutal! 😣

but going on their other results (even with the girls that went on the hen?) its not making much difference - Out of their depth. Should be Intermediate. Getting hammered every game isnt much good for development..

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860618#Comment_121860618

Think you might be looking at results of Antrim's second team, who are in Div. 3B of the League, and who've had a couple of heavy beatings all right?

The team in question here is their first team, who are in Div. 1B, which is basically for teams ranked 7 to 12 (same as how the National Hurling League will be next year).

Camogie Assoc. website shows that they won their first match there - select "Div. 1B National League" in the dropdown menu on this page - https://camogie.ie/fixtures-results/

Does seem odd that they haven't published the result there of the match last Saturday, or awarded the points to Wexford.

Meanwhile, can't find actual results for last year's League, but Wikipedia shows that they finished third out of six, and a points difference of +16 means that they won two matches by bigger margins than they lost another two, so they weren't whipping girls then either - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_National_Camogie_League

And for what it's worth, in the League meeting between Wexford and Antrim last year, a goal from a controversial penalty is all that separated the sides: https://www.irishnews.com/sport/hurlingandcamogie/2023/04/02/news/antrim_hopes_of_reaching_final_are_ended_by_controversial_penalty_in_defeat_to_wexford-3181341/

I've no idea of the dynamics behind the scenes in Antrim camogie, but it remains strange to me that 12 players with what's normally a fairly competitive team at that level would choose to go on a hen weekend rather than go play a match.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860528#Comment_121860528

Did you ever think that people give up because they are fed up with never knowing where they are going to train and having matches organised on Sunday mornings at 9:30?

"I wouldn't tar the entire camogie association with the same brush but I will anyway"

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860908#Comment_121860908

Again, I don't know the exact dynamics or mechanics of Antrim camogie.

Perhaps it is the case that even their main inter-county side has difficulty in securing training venues and times, to the extent that 12 players became so fed up of it that they decided "sod this, I'm off".

However, if those 12 players return for their next match (this coming Saturday), then this clearly isn't the case, as the whole situation regarding training venues and times surely can't have changed too much in the space of a week.

Also, you can bet that if the hen weekend decision was indeed a form of protest ("We're so fed up with lack of access to training facilities that we're basically going on strike this weekend, and are going somewhere else instead"), then the GPA would have highlighted it as part of their ongoing campaign for better conditions for female players.

Still seems far more likely to me that these 12 players are nowhere near as committed to even the highest level of inter-county competition on offer to them as lads in my own place are to Junior Football, in a club where football isn't even our preferred code.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860908#Comment_121860908

Sorry, just realised your post here actually refers to the club example that I gave.

I can absolutely assure you that in my own place, it's not the case that the camogie and LGFA clubs are fobbed off with "here, you can have what's left after all the GAA teams have first choice on what pitches they want, and when".

I know this for an absolute fact because I've been pitch coordinator myself for the past six years. We're lucky enough to have sufficient pitches that all teams (GAA, camogie & LGFA) by and large can always have a pitch in or around the time they want, and there's no more give and take with the female sides from Nursery upwards than there is with the males.

An official camogie or LGFA fixture takes priority over a GAA training session, if that that training session is normally on that pitch at that time. Also, if a GAA manager asks for a pitch for an extra training session or a practice match at a time it's normally used by camogie or LGFA, they're told "no, not unless you can agree a swap or come to some other arrangement with the relevant camogie/LGFA manager".

But despite the camogie club here having the exact pitch they wanted at the exact time they wanted, just 10 players turned up. Go figure.

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861078#Comment_121861078

But despite the camogie club here having the exact pitch they wanted at the exact time they wanted, just 10 players turned up. Go figure.

The rest were hardly at a hen party?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861365#Comment_121861365

LOL. 😁😂

Their training was at 7.30 p.m. on a Wednesday, so unlikely. But I suppose not impossible!

keeponhurling

The LGFA was founded in 1974.

Excuse my ignorance but was no ladies' football ever (formally) played prior to 1974? Or was it played within the GAA and we're talking about reintegration here?

In contrast, the Camogie Association seems to have been formed in 1904.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861078#Comment_121861078

That's great, at your club there is equality of opportunity and some choose not to take. Its not the case at an awful lot though. But by judging the entirety based on 10 showing up to a training session in February is taring with the same brush. All should be entitled to equality of opportunity. If they dont take it thats on them. And if opportunities granted are not taken resources should go back to the club pool

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861783#Comment_121861783

I'm not sure how to respond to you here.

Think I've made it clear that just because 12 inter-county players in one county choose to go on a hen weekend instead of playing a match, or just because the majority of the camogie club's playing pool in my own place choose not to attend training on the 28th of February, I'm not claiming that no women's team anywhere ever makes an effort. If that point hasn't been clear, please allow me to make it again, with added emphasis: I'm not claiming that no women's team anywhere ever makes an effort.

The two examples here do give rise to a couple of questions related to equality of opportunity and other things, though:

• Twelve Antrim camogie players had the opportunity to play a National League match last weekend, just as the Antrim hurlers have opportunities to play National League matches at this time of year, but those camogie players chose not to take it. If they also had equality by way of travel expenses for attending training, should they be able to claim for whatever sessions they attended last week, even though they had no intention of actually playing the match that weekend?
• In the club example - if it was regularly the case that just ten out of probably more than 40 camogie players were turning up for training, at a time when the pitch could be put to other use by a hurling or football squad, for how long should we wait before declaring "right girls, that's enough, you're not getting the pitch at that time any more because most of you probably won't even bother to turn up" ? Would that not instantly lead to cries of "that's not fair, we're not being given access to the pitch when we want it, but the GAA sides are getting it whenever they ask for it" ?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121861518#Comment_121861518

There's actually an account of the early years of ladies football here: https://ladiesgaelic.ie/the-lgfa/history/the-beginning/

Basically, it was never played as part of the GAA. When interest in it began to grow in the 1960s and there was realisation that putting it on an organised basis would be in order, there were "GAA people" involved in those early efforts all right, but they never actually approached the GAA with a view to coming under its wing. Reasons include that they wanted full control over different playing rules (e.g. picking the ball straight from the ground), and the probably realistic expectation that ladies football would only be an afterthought in the GAA structures of the time after hurling and football, instead of being the only focus of a new organisation to promote and run the game.

Unclear why they didn't band together with the Camogie Association at the time, but could be because camogie of the time was very different from hurling, and even from the camogie of today - e.g. just 12-a-side, with the small goals only used up to U12 level in GAA, and with genuinely little or no deliberate physical contact. My guess is that the pioneers of the LGFA wanted their version of football to much more closely resemble the men's version, than the camogie of the time resembled hurling.

Anyway, you're correct that there no ladies football was ever formally played before 1974, because there was no organisation to actually run it until then.

MattressRick

I'm trying to bring small kids to see an intercounty ladies football or camogie match and the basics like a venue arent available until just a few days before the match is on. Start times were only available less than a week out too, so you can't even figure out if you can go or not.

I'm sure it's down to figuring out what grounds are available. The ladies only seem to get club grounds for national league matches. Will they get county grounds after the amalgamation?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862027#Comment_121862027

What was your point in the context of providing equality of opportunity so? Here are 12 ladies who dont appear to be as committed as some and here is a team that had low turnout at training therefore what? In the context of organisational integration what relevance to those two anectotes have other than your use of them as some sort of stick to attack the idea of equality.