Could not see another thread. I see the associations have laid out 2027 as the target for integration of the 3 associations. Certainly will lead to some interesting situations in some clubs and counties.
You'd like to think that one would be relatively straightforward all right.
However, although it might be almost shameful to have to say it, a National Football League Div. 4 match for Wexford might have fewer than 500 spectators, and that sort of crowd could move to a different venue all right. So if it's the women that moves the first time the pitch can't take two matches in a weekend, who moves the second time, if there's supposed to be equality of opportunity and access to facilties?
Same sort of thing would apply in most other counties. Mayo hurlers, for example, may be used to playing in Castlebar, but again in front of only a small crowd that could be accommodated elsewhere. So they're fixed to play at home on one day, and Mayo camogie at home on the other, but the pitch is too wet to take two matches, do they take turns moving or do the men get to keep the venue where they've always played?
By the way, post above edited to say that the women's matches would generally have smaller crowds, rather than small crowds. Clearly the case that many men's matches only have small crowds too.
So what do you do when it's obvious it can only take one match in a weekend? Do you always move the women out to another ground where they've been used to playing up until now anyway and where the small crowd can be properly accommodated, or do you have to take turns at it, such that the men are sometimes moved out of the county ground?
You couldn't be moving a men's match where there may be 6-7k looking to attend while the women's team would have anything from 100-300.
Incidentally, I notice that Antrim's first team won their match last weekend, beating Kerry by 2-15 to 0-11.
There mustn't have been any hen night on. :)
Just on the county grounds - there's no way you could guarantee that Wexford Park, for example, would be able to host matches on both Saturday & Sunday of a wet February week, if there was a women's match fixed for one day and a men's match fixed for the other.
So what do you do when it's obvious it can only take one match in a weekend? Do you always move the women out to another ground where they've been used to playing up until now anyway and where the generally smaller crowd can be properly accommodated, or do you have to take turns at it, such that the men are sometimes moved out of the county ground?
On inter-county player expenses and general team running costs - an issue there is that there's only so much money in the pot, and no side has yet come up with proposals to increase the pot, so allocating more to women's teams is likely to necessitate taking from the men's.
An added complication is how about ten to twelve counties carry two adult camogie squads (e.g. one at senior, and one at intermediate or junior), which in itself means twice as many players looking for travelling expenses, meals, kit, accommodation on longer trips, etc.
Let's say there was indeed "equality" of an annual €500,000 budget for each code. Would this mean the men's team getting €500,000 and the women's getting €250,000 each, leading to protests of "we're not being treated equally at all, each team is only getting half of what the men get"? Or would it mean giving €500,000 to the men and €1,000,000 to the women, which could hardly be seen as "equal" either?
Alternatively, would camogie in these counties be told they can carry one inter-county team only, leading to protests of "you're taking away the chance of inter-county play for somewhere around 25 or 30 women....they were better off before integration!" ?
Again, valid questions, concerns, and examples of things that will have to be considered along the integration pathway. Not reasons to dismiss somebody as some sort of dinosaur who's fundamentally opposed to the very idea of integration in the first place.
I dont see much of a change if any in county ground use after amalgamation. In most counties you have decent secondary county grounds, like Crossmaglen in Armagh for instance where mens league games have been hosted occassionally, and for the crowds that the womens games draw thats more than adequate
It will be very interesting to see how the intercounty expenses issue develops. I guess it will drag up the womens game with the extra supports but it might also focus minds in the mens game on whats really needed and whats not.
A number of years ago I was hearing instances of some counties almost signing blank cheques for phsyios who were charging their normal private rate per hour, and no negotiation of a "bulk discount" or tendering for the services or the likes. Thats grand when a county is flush with cash but when they need to manage their budgets a bit better to support more teams, it will give the county board ammo against the mens manager to tell him to operate within tighter financial boundaries.
Ah. I browse to the next page here and I find further evidence that you just don't seem to grasp the bigger picture.
You seem to be forgetting that there are four codes, not two.
I won't write another long post here to explain exactly why your suggestion is not practical, but what you could do as an exercise yourself is have a look at the master fixtures calendars to see how many weeks are available for National Leagues in the four codes, the number of fixtures that need to be played across them, and then try fit that to a pattern of home and away on alternate weekends.
Or you could just try solve a Rubik's Cube instead, because that would actually be easier.
I think you've just illustrated what will prove to be one of the biggest challenges in trying to achieve integration.
It's regularly the case that anybody who raises an issue, concern or query related to the camogie or LGFA end of things, no matter how valid, is immediately accused of being some sort of dinosaur who's completely opposed to any form of integration in the first place.
I think the two "anecdotes" here are indeed relevant, and that they give rise to valid questions:
1 - Should inter-county female players be entitled to the same levels of expenses etc. as male players, if they don't show the same levels of commitment as regards actually making themselves available for matches?
2 - Should facilities continue to be made available indefinitely to a camogie or LFGA squad if they don't make proper or full use of them, at times when a GAA squad would put that facility to better use?
The "anecdotes" show that these are not just hypothetical situations. They're real ones, which have occurred in just the past ten days.
Incidentally, the same situation would apply the other way round.
I'd also question whether a male inter-county player should be allowed claim expenses for attending training in a week when he had no intention of actually playing a match because he was going off drinking on a stag night or similar.
And if there was a case in my own club where a GAA squad regularly wasn't making proper use of a pitch slot at a time when a camogie or LGFA squad also wanted it, it'd be "lads, get your act together, or the women will start getting that slot instead".
Maybe but wouldn't be straight forward when you add the camogs into the mix aswell.
Maybe, just maybe, in an integrated organisation, the CCCC could see their way to have the men and women home and away on alternate weekends
That is where the trouble is going to start at this time of year pitches may not be able for two games over a weekend (certainty not last weekend around here anyway). The ladies will want the county ground and say they are entitled to it and if they don't get it say that they are been treated as second class citizens.
What was your point in the context of providing equality of opportunity so? Here are 12 ladies who dont appear to be as committed as some and here is a team that had low turnout at training therefore what? In the context of organisational integration what relevance to those two anectotes have other than your use of them as some sort of stick to attack the idea of equality.
I'm trying to bring small kids to see an intercounty ladies football or camogie match and the basics like a venue arent available until just a few days before the match is on. Start times were only available less than a week out too, so you can't even figure out if you can go or not.
I'm sure it's down to figuring out what grounds are available. The ladies only seem to get club grounds for national league matches. Will they get county grounds after the amalgamation?
There's actually an account of the early years of ladies football here: https://ladiesgaelic.ie/the-lgfa/history/the-beginning/
Basically, it was never played as part of the GAA. When interest in it began to grow in the 1960s and there was realisation that putting it on an organised basis would be in order, there were "GAA people" involved in those early efforts all right, but they never actually approached the GAA with a view to coming under its wing. Reasons include that they wanted full control over different playing rules (e.g. picking the ball straight from the ground), and the probably realistic expectation that ladies football would only be an afterthought in the GAA structures of the time after hurling and football, instead of being the only focus of a new organisation to promote and run the game.
Unclear why they didn't band together with the Camogie Association at the time, but could be because camogie of the time was very different from hurling, and even from the camogie of today - e.g. just 12-a-side, with the small goals only used up to U12 level in GAA, and with genuinely little or no deliberate physical contact. My guess is that the pioneers of the LGFA wanted their version of football to much more closely resemble the men's version, than the camogie of the time resembled hurling.
Anyway, you're correct that there no ladies football was ever formally played before 1974, because there was no organisation to actually run it until then.
I'm not sure how to respond to you here.
Think I've made it clear that just because 12 inter-county players in one county choose to go on a hen weekend instead of playing a match, or just because the majority of the camogie club's playing pool in my own place choose not to attend training on the 28th of February, I'm not claiming that no women's team anywhere ever makes an effort. If that point hasn't been clear, please allow me to make it again, with added emphasis: I'm not claiming that no women's team anywhere ever makes an effort.
The two examples here do give rise to a couple of questions related to equality of opportunity and other things, though:
That's great, at your club there is equality of opportunity and some choose not to take. Its not the case at an awful lot though. But by judging the entirety based on 10 showing up to a training session in February is taring with the same brush. All should be entitled to equality of opportunity. If they dont take it thats on them. And if opportunities granted are not taken resources should go back to the club pool
The LGFA was founded in 1974.
Excuse my ignorance but was no ladies' football ever (formally) played prior to 1974? Or was it played within the GAA and we're talking about reintegration here?
In contrast, the Camogie Association seems to have been formed in 1904.
LOL. 😁😂
Their training was at 7.30 p.m. on a Wednesday, so unlikely. But I suppose not impossible!
But despite the camogie club here having the exact pitch they wanted at the exact time they wanted, just 10 players turned up. Go figure.
The rest were hardly at a hen party?
Sorry, just realised your post here actually refers to the club example that I gave.
I can absolutely assure you that in my own place, it's not the case that the camogie and LGFA clubs are fobbed off with "here, you can have what's left after all the GAA teams have first choice on what pitches they want, and when".
I know this for an absolute fact because I've been pitch coordinator myself for the past six years. We're lucky enough to have sufficient pitches that all teams (GAA, camogie & LGFA) by and large can always have a pitch in or around the time they want, and there's no more give and take with the female sides from Nursery upwards than there is with the males.
An official camogie or LGFA fixture takes priority over a GAA training session, if that that training session is normally on that pitch at that time. Also, if a GAA manager asks for a pitch for an extra training session or a practice match at a time it's normally used by camogie or LGFA, they're told "no, not unless you can agree a swap or come to some other arrangement with the relevant camogie/LGFA manager".
Again, I don't know the exact dynamics or mechanics of Antrim camogie.
Perhaps it is the case that even their main inter-county side has difficulty in securing training venues and times, to the extent that 12 players became so fed up of it that they decided "sod this, I'm off".
However, if those 12 players return for their next match (this coming Saturday), then this clearly isn't the case, as the whole situation regarding training venues and times surely can't have changed too much in the space of a week.
Also, you can bet that if the hen weekend decision was indeed a form of protest ("We're so fed up with lack of access to training facilities that we're basically going on strike this weekend, and are going somewhere else instead"), then the GPA would have highlighted it as part of their ongoing campaign for better conditions for female players.
Still seems far more likely to me that these 12 players are nowhere near as committed to even the highest level of inter-county competition on offer to them as lads in my own place are to Junior Football, in a club where football isn't even our preferred code.
Did you ever think that people give up because they are fed up with never knowing where they are going to train and having matches organised on Sunday mornings at 9:30?
"I wouldn't tar the entire camogie association with the same brush but I will anyway"
Think you might be looking at results of Antrim's second team, who are in Div. 3B of the League, and who've had a couple of heavy beatings all right?
The team in question here is their first team, who are in Div. 1B, which is basically for teams ranked 7 to 12 (same as how the National Hurling League will be next year).
Camogie Assoc. website shows that they won their first match there - select "Div. 1B National League" in the dropdown menu on this page - https://camogie.ie/fixtures-results/
Does seem odd that they haven't published the result there of the match last Saturday, or awarded the points to Wexford.
Meanwhile, can't find actual results for last year's League, but Wikipedia shows that they finished third out of six, and a points difference of +16 means that they won two matches by bigger margins than they lost another two, so they weren't whipping girls then either - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_National_Camogie_League
And for what it's worth, in the League meeting between Wexford and Antrim last year, a goal from a controversial penalty is all that separated the sides: https://www.irishnews.com/sport/hurlingandcamogie/2023/04/02/news/antrim_hopes_of_reaching_final_are_ended_by_controversial_penalty_in_defeat_to_wexford-3181341/
I've no idea of the dynamics behind the scenes in Antrim camogie, but it remains strange to me that 12 players with what's normally a fairly competitive team at that level would choose to go on a hen weekend rather than go play a match.
Jeez ........
thats brutal! 😣
but going on their other results (even with the girls that went on the hen?) its not making much difference - Out of their depth. Should be Intermediate. Getting hammered every game isnt much good for development..
And for what it's worth, here's one to illustrate levels of effort and commitment at club level.
My own GAA club here in Wexford operates three adult hurling teams each year. Our sister camogie club operates either two or three, depending on the numbers they have in any given year.
Last week, our hurlers had their first on-field training session of the year, after doing earlier sessions in the gym. 41 players took full part in it. A further 11 also attended but either only did a bit of it or else just watched, due to injuries etc. That makes a total of 52.
The following evening, the camogie club had the same pitch at the same time. Ten players turned up.
Again, just one instance in just one place, and I wouldn't tar the entire Camogie Association off the back of it. But it illustrates the point all the same.
Here's a post on the Facebook page of The Sunday Game - https://www.facebook.com/TheSundayGame/posts/pfbid02Pa6Gmb8F3ADuikPRums4Pxp1VA3bnABUt1EhE1T7SVBNUCKG67fqDrDt9f24rmz2l
Some of the comments criticise Wexford for not taking it easier on them (!), while others criticise Antrim Camogie County Board. None criticise the 12 players involved for being so uncommitted that they'd rather go drinking on a hen night, despite how many of the comments seem to be from people with an interest in Antrim camogie, and so they'd surely have known about this.
Meanwhile, here's the report from the local paper where I read about it myself -
Where is that result ?
Not on the Camogie Assc website?
There won't be LGFA/Camogie they will be all the one.
Out of interest will the GAA/LGFA/Camogie then become joint owners of club facilities or will they still be owned by the gaa club?
Equality of opportunity is a different thing.
My post was about equality (or lack of it) of effort and commitment.
Its about equality of opportunity. That teams wont be disadvantaged through inability to access to facilities or supports. What the Antrim ladies choose to do is between them, their management and their country board. But what top teams in Camogie and ladies football face is not knowing where they are going to train that evening, not having changing facilities, no meals provided after training, or access to physios and a lot more besides. A club level when the one club model hasnt been embraced they are told to be thankful they get the pitch at 9 on a Sunday morning and shut up about it.
