GAA LGFA Camogie Association Integration

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862960#Comment_121862960

That is where the trouble is going to start at this time of year pitches may not be able for two games over a weekend (certainty not last weekend around here anyway). The ladies will want the county ground and say they are entitled to it and if they don't get it say that they are been treated as second class citizens.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864420#Comment_121864420

Maybe, just maybe, in an integrated organisation, the CCCC could see their way to have the men and women home and away on alternate weekends

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864662#Comment_121864662

Maybe but wouldn't be straight forward when you add the camogs into the mix aswell.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864278#Comment_121864278

I think you've just illustrated what will prove to be one of the biggest challenges in trying to achieve integration.

It's regularly the case that anybody who raises an issue, concern or query related to the camogie or LGFA end of things, no matter how valid, is immediately accused of being some sort of dinosaur who's completely opposed to any form of integration in the first place.

I think the two "anecdotes" here are indeed relevant, and that they give rise to valid questions:

1 - Should inter-county female players be entitled to the same levels of expenses etc. as male players, if they don't show the same levels of commitment as regards actually making themselves available for matches?

2 - Should facilities continue to be made available indefinitely to a camogie or LFGA squad if they don't make proper or full use of them, at times when a GAA squad would put that facility to better use?

The "anecdotes" show that these are not just hypothetical situations. They're real ones, which have occurred in just the past ten days.

Incidentally, the same situation would apply the other way round.

I'd also question whether a male inter-county player should be allowed claim expenses for attending training in a week when he had no intention of actually playing a match because he was going off drinking on a stag night or similar.

And if there was a case in my own club where a GAA squad regularly wasn't making proper use of a pitch slot at a time when a camogie or LGFA squad also wanted it, it'd be "lads, get your act together, or the women will start getting that slot instead".

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864662#Comment_121864662

Ah. I browse to the next page here and I find further evidence that you just don't seem to grasp the bigger picture.

You seem to be forgetting that there are four codes, not two.

I won't write another long post here to explain exactly why your suggestion is not practical, but what you could do as an exercise yourself is have a look at the master fixtures calendars to see how many weeks are available for National Leagues in the four codes, the number of fixtures that need to be played across them, and then try fit that to a pattern of home and away on alternate weekends.

Or you could just try solve a Rubik's Cube instead, because that would actually be easier.

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862960#Comment_121862960

I dont see much of a change if any in county ground use after amalgamation. In most counties you have decent secondary county grounds, like Crossmaglen in Armagh for instance where mens league games have been hosted occassionally, and for the crowds that the womens games draw thats more than adequate

It will be very interesting to see how the intercounty expenses issue develops. I guess it will drag up the womens game with the extra supports but it might also focus minds in the mens game on whats really needed and whats not.

A number of years ago I was hearing instances of some counties almost signing blank cheques for phsyios who were charging their normal private rate per hour, and no negotiation of a "bulk discount" or tendering for the services or the likes. Thats grand when a county is flush with cash but when they need to manage their budgets a bit better to support more teams, it will give the county board ammo against the mens manager to tell him to operate within tighter financial boundaries.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882563#Comment_121882563

Just on the county grounds - there's no way you could guarantee that Wexford Park, for example, would be able to host matches on both Saturday & Sunday of a wet February week, if there was a women's match fixed for one day and a men's match fixed for the other.

So what do you do when it's obvious it can only take one match in a weekend? Do you always move the women out to another ground where they've been used to playing up until now anyway and where the generally smaller crowd can be properly accommodated, or do you have to take turns at it, such that the men are sometimes moved out of the county ground?

On inter-county player expenses and general team running costs - an issue there is that there's only so much money in the pot, and no side has yet come up with proposals to increase the pot, so allocating more to women's teams is likely to necessitate taking from the men's.

An added complication is how about ten to twelve counties carry two adult camogie squads (e.g. one at senior, and one at intermediate or junior), which in itself means twice as many players looking for travelling expenses, meals, kit, accommodation on longer trips, etc.

Let's say there was indeed "equality" of an annual €500,000 budget for each code. Would this mean the men's team getting €500,000 and the women's getting €250,000 each, leading to protests of "we're not being treated equally at all, each team is only getting half of what the men get"? Or would it mean giving €500,000 to the men and €1,000,000 to the women, which could hardly be seen as "equal" either?

Alternatively, would camogie in these counties be told they can carry one inter-county team only, leading to protests of "you're taking away the chance of inter-county play for somewhere around 25 or 30 women....they were better off before integration!" ?

Again, valid questions, concerns, and examples of things that will have to be considered along the integration pathway. Not reasons to dismiss somebody as some sort of dinosaur who's fundamentally opposed to the very idea of integration in the first place.

Uncle Pierre

Incidentally, I notice that Antrim's first team won their match last weekend, beating Kerry by 2-15 to 0-11.

There mustn't have been any hen night on. :)

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883598#Comment_121883598

So what do you do when it's obvious it can only take one match in a weekend? Do you always move the women out to another ground where they've been used to playing up until now anyway and where the small crowd can be properly accommodated, or do you have to take turns at it, such that the men are sometimes moved out of the county ground?

You couldn't be moving a men's match where there may be 6-7k looking to attend while the women's team would have anything from 100-300.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883958#Comment_121883958

You'd like to think that one would be relatively straightforward all right.

However, although it might be almost shameful to have to say it, a National Football League Div. 4 match for Wexford might have fewer than 500 spectators, and that sort of crowd could move to a different venue all right. So if it's the women that moves the first time the pitch can't take two matches in a weekend, who moves the second time, if there's supposed to be equality of opportunity and access to facilties?

Same sort of thing would apply in most other counties. Mayo hurlers, for example, may be used to playing in Castlebar, but again in front of only a small crowd that could be accommodated elsewhere. So they're fixed to play at home on one day, and Mayo camogie at home on the other, but the pitch is too wet to take two matches, do they take turns moving or do the men get to keep the venue where they've always played?

By the way, post above edited to say that the women's matches would generally have smaller crowds, rather than small crowds. Clearly the case that many men's matches only have small crowds too.

greenspurs

For example, why not play a camogie/lgfa match before the hurling/gf match as the first game of a 'double bill'? ...

IT was done in Nowlan Park a few years ago (KK v Dub ?) before the men played Wexford?

There was a great crowd there for the second half of the camogie.

I know it means having to open the ground earlier, and stewards are there longer etc ...

Cork are doing it in the coming weeks also - so it can be done.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886689#Comment_121886689

Yes, but a key difference is that Kilkenny double-header was a championship one, and the Munster double-headers this year will be too - i.e. played during late April or May, when there's far less chance of ground conditions being too soft to take two matches.

Focus here so far has been on the contingency plans that would be needed for National League fixtures in a wet February or early March.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887221#Comment_121887221

You sound like the local soccer League committee ---- "game is off boys, we have to save the pitch"

Save it for what !?!?! The World cup final isnt being played on it next week ffs .... Sorry, i digress...

How bad are the 'county' grounds ???

How many games a season are played on them? They couldnt take 6-8 extra games???

When was the last time an inter county match in a 'county' ground was called off due to a bad pitch??

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887293#Comment_121887293

When was the last time an inter county match in a 'county' ground was called off due to a bad pitch??

2 Weeks ago.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887293#Comment_121887293

@celt262 could also point to how neither Limerick Gaelic Grounds or Semple Stadium in Thurles are available right now either. You have me on a technicality in that the county matches that are supposed to be at these county grounds are not actually being called off, but they do have to be moved.

But I'll accept that these sort of instances are relatively rare. Will point out though that a large part of the reason why they're relatively rare is that in general, there's only one match fixed per weekend for the county grounds at this time of year. If it was regularly the case that there were two matches fixed, then difficulties would arise far more often.

Anyway, since you ask - I can't speak for other county grounds, but Wexford Park typically stages somewhere between 100 and 120 matches per year, between club and county. Four matches per weekend during club season are not uncommon. So yes, it could take in an extra six or eight games over the course of a year. But problem remains that you couldn't guarantee it could take in an extra six or eight games during February and the first couple of weeks of March, when damage caused by too much play on a wet pitch could take several weeks to heal.

crusd

Its seems that the latest excuse for not integrating organisations is its not easy to schedule fixtures.

Last week it was a couple of female teams may not show the same commitment as the Dubs under Jim Gavin.

What will it be next week?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891191#Comment_121891191

Thank you for the further proof of my point about how bringing up valid and genuine considerations often leads to accusations of being anti-integration, from people who either refuse to see the bigger picture or else simply don't understand it.

Pointing out the reality that there are difficulties with having wet pitches available either two days in a row or for a double-header at this time of year does not imply you're opposed to integration. In many ways, it's actually got nothing to do with integration. Whether it's just one CCC organising fixtures & venues in an integrated association, of three different committees across three different associations, they still won't be able to change the weather or the ground conditions, and so will still have to work around it in the way that's currently done.

And by the way, you're upping the ante a bit with mention of the Dubs and Jim Gavin. The actual reference was to how certain senior inter-county camogie players were not even as committed as junior footballers in Wexford, in a club where the juniors are the second football team, and where football is not even the preferred code.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891352#Comment_121891352

And the actual response was that it is understandable the commitment can wane when teams dont even know where they are going to train on any given day, and where venues for matches can change within a hour or two of throw in.

And that you cannot see that one organisation with responsibility for fixture calendars on one set of commonly owned grounds with a common goal versus three organisations on the same set of grounds owned by one of the organisations with divergent goals is not a improvement is obtuse in the extreme. I could argue its deliberately disingenuous and redolent of the let the women be happy with the scraps we give attitude that pervade many clubs

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891386#Comment_121891386

You've a real way of either twisting things or else simply not understanding them.

In the first example given here - relating to the 12 Antrim camogie players - there's been no suggestion or evidence that their decision to go on a hen weekend instead of playing a match was in any way due to uncertainty over training venues & times, or match fixtures. Indeed, appears all 12 returned to training after the hen weekend, and were available for the match they won last weekend. There were certainly many different names in the line-up for that match than there were in the team that lined out against Wexford.

In the example related to my own place - where just 10 camogie players out of a playing panel of more than 40 turned up for training - that's in no way related to uncertainty over pitch availability either. The session was scheduled two weeks earlier at exactly the time they asked for, and they already know they can have a pitch at the same time on the same evening for the rest of the year too.

On the other thing, I honestly don't know how you can infer that I claimed having just one CCC wouldn't be preferable to having three separate ones. I merely pointed out that just one CCC still wouldn't have any more control over weather and ground conditions than three separate ones would.

But hey, let's twist again.....

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121892408#Comment_121892408

Yet you are the one throwing shade at the possibility of integration over irrelevant issues

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121892460#Comment_121892460

It seems every post of yours just provides further proof of that point I made earlier.

Such things are not reason to question the possibility or indeed wisdom of integration in the first place. They're simply examples of things that will need to to be considered along the way.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887390#Comment_121887390

Another one now. Not called off, but has to be moved again. Even the replacement pitch for Semple Stadium is now unplayable, and the Tipp v Wexford National Football League match on Saturday is moving to Wexford instead, as it'll now be played in St. Patrick's Park in Enniscorthy.