Are PHEVs bad?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121737276#Comment_121737276

How was the cost of charging your PHEV so incredibly expensive compared to running an EV? I would of expected that part of it to be roughly the same

Dav010

Also have a PHEV, I see it as the very best of both worlds. The vast majority of my car trips are under 20kms so I drive cheaply on electric charge, but when I do have to drive longer distances, I don’t have range anxiety or have to plan on stopping to charge. The jeep was cheaper than its petrol/diesel siblings, and it’s dirt cheap to tax for such a big unit.

There is no down side for me to a PHEV.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738002#Comment_121738002

How is heating and performance in the EV mode compared to the normal mode and/or an equivalent EV car? There seem to be great variations between models and some PHEVs don't offer much.

DirkG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735497#Comment_121735497

Yes, I picked up an ex-demo in October.

It is a fine car, arguably a better PHEV implementation than the RAV4 and quite a bit cheaper. I came very close to buying a Tesla MY but an occasional need to tow over large distances made me plump for a PHEV.

As mentioned by others, PHEVs are pointless unless you plug them in every night (else your driving an overweight overpriced FHEV). The Kuga FHEV is a formidable option, not as trendy but the weight advantage means it is potentially as efficient at a lower price. Another upside is that you don't have to faff around with home or public chargers with either. The granny charger that comes with the PHEV is perfectly matched to its (slow) charge speed. Power is great and its much more economical than the (fine)2l diesel I used to run.

I'm very happy with my PHEV, in particular the absence of range anxiety. The new Kuga FHEV boast a tow limit of 2200 - starting to make family diesels redundant.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738347#Comment_121738347

The Rav has a heat pump, so no issues. Engine generally stays off at all times.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121737960#Comment_121737960

The cost to go up 2 years worked out at under 9k if I went like for like.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738347#Comment_121738347

I was close to buying an EV car recently but for various reasons didn’t take the plunge so I can’t offer a comparison on a full EV. I tend to drive on full EV until charge is gone, then it changes over to petrol and is thirsty, but I expect that given its weight/3L engine.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738478#Comment_121738478

Ahh ok, you'd said cost to charge instead of cost to change. Was trying to work out what would make charging a PHEV so expensive 😁

Cost to change from ev to ev is largely similar, its only really people changing from an EV back to Diesel that have been stung by the price cut induced depreciation.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738529#Comment_121738529

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738478#Comment_121738478

How's the performance in the EV only mode compared to the PHEV mode? Heatpump in Toyota is definitely good news as some other PHEVs don't have any heat unless the engine is running and/or the EV range totally collapses with resistive only heat.

DirkG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738638#Comment_121738638

I think both the Kuga and RAV4 have similar electric-only power output ~110bhp. Performance is good, but you find yourself driving sedately. If you engage both in "Sport" mode your accessing 200Bhp+ with fast throttle response - you definitely notice!

Really enjoying the pre-heat feature in the Kuga, you can set a departure schedule to preheat the car and have the car fully defrosted and comfortably warm. This is all electric, except in sub-zero temps where the engine is fired up for a bit.

Flinty997

Does it have a heated windscreen?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738532#Comment_121738532

Dont think many people are trading up like for like family sized EV’s for 8k/9k after two years, it’s way more expensive based on input on boards and Facebook. Even with price cuts I’m hearing 15k+ to change up ID4’s, 20k+ to trade up Ioniq’s or EV6’s. Enyaq’s even more. To be clear that’s trading 2022 into a 2024

Potentially trading up Model 3 if you sell private for maybe 29k and buy for 41k that’s 12k, but obviously you need to be skilled at used car sales to pull that off which most people are’nt

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738693#Comment_121738693

Just to comment on the pre heat function which is great. The charger needs to be on fast charge mode not scheduled so the power is available to recharge the battery while preheating

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738638#Comment_121738638

toyota say it compares to a 2.0 petrol in ev mode. I think that’s probably a fair enough comparison having driven 2.0 petrols for years.

It always defaults to ev only mode each morning, but you can switch it to auto ev/hv where the petrol will come on when you kickdown: I find the torque of the petrol really helps at higher overtaking speeds when the electric motors have lost their punch.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738851#Comment_121738851

I'm seeing a lot of people saying they've lost numbers like that on valuation but the prices have also come down by a few thousand. If you've lost 15k on what you paid and the new car cost 5k less then you are spending 10k to trade up. The people complaining about how much they've lost very rarely give a cost to change number unless they switch to a different fuel type.

There are still a few brands that haven't dropped prices (Hyundai) to account for where the market has move, those are the ones where you're really going to be stung. It's much harder to justify the price of an Ioniq 5 vs the competitors than it was 18 months ago.

Where there the same price increase in the PHEVs over the last two years and will we see similar reductions?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739247#Comment_121739247

My numbers are cost to change, the deprecation numbers are way higher!

FaganJr

What about the new Nissan Quashqai and the Mazda MX 30 REV?

Are they plug in or do they recharge with the engine?

Or are they a different configuration altogether?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740388#Comment_121740388

The MX 30 R-EV is a range extender EV with a very small battery, similar to the BMW I3 REX. The Nissan e-power system is just a series hybrid. Both of them have a petrol engine on board which is used to generate electricity and cannot be used to directly drive the wheels. The Mazda at least allows you to plug in at home to take advantage of cheap overnight electricity rates.

The main distinction between and Range Extended BEV vs a PHEV is whether the petrol engine can drive the wheels.

Finochet

As a cautious oul fella taking his first step. I've bought a Tucson phev but await the ESB to certify the installation process of wall box for charging at home . What availability is there publicly to charge? I assume it's a type 2(T2) I require. Are there T2 tethered public charging spots that work for a phev? Again I presume when it's switched on the house wall box will charge at up 7 kw speed. Would a 22 kw public charger set the car on fire? How do I check out tethered locations?

Any guidance will be gratefully accepted. Thanks

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773686#Comment_121773686

When on AC the car will decide what the maximum is. The charge point is only an outlet, the charger is on board the car. Most modern EVs can take between 7 and 11kW when on an AC charge point. Public ones are usually 3 phase, so will allow about 11kW, single phase home charge points about 7kW. A few cars, notably the Renault Zoe and earlier Teslas can take the full 22kW. These charge points use the type 2 socket, standard on almost all new cars.

I do not know what AC power your PHEV can accept. I believe many can only take 3 or 4kW. But there is no danger on a higher powered charge point, as I said the charger is in your car and it will decide.

Berty

As a Tucson PHEV owner with a walbox plus installation I can tell you mine hovers around 7.2kw when charging. I do not use public charging. I have once as a test really locally and a few times outside the country(took the car to France and UK) but of late I don't anymore bother to public charge.

I use the home charger all the time but If I've a long trip and the battery depletes then I won't go looking to charge it, I'll just let the car work in HEV mode. I do have a type 2 cable in the boot which I bought on Amazon as when I have to go to the work office(rarely) they've a free charge point to plug into.

I'll say this about the car , battery and weather. The last few days it has gotten better as the battery has been struggling to stay engaged when the temperature is below 10 degrees and you're using the interior heaters. Warmer temperatures the car is nearly always in EV mode, except for initial startup in the mornings but hitting EV mode maybe in 5 minutes.

Finochet

Very helpful thank you. Relieved to find the car decides. I'll check the manual to see what max AC power is anyway. I understand ( if what I've been reading is correct) that it is important to use petrol power to ensure that it is used from time to time. Yesterday on a 22 km round trip battery dropped from 27%to13% so undoubtedly petrol was used as 14% would not cover 22km.

Again thanks

Finochet

Thanks Bertie

I reckon I will be using wall box exclusively when it is set up . When having box installed I used opportunity to have an external socket fitted adjacent to box for use in front of house. Alas ELCB blew on first attempt to use Granny cable with it. ( Probably too many sockets drawing from the same source on the board- I'll let professional figure it out)

Sparks will return next week to fix this but in the meantime I was just curious about availability of public charging ( tethered) point for a PHEV. Are most/ all points untethered and you have to have your own cable?

I see from these threads most phev owners don't bother with public charging and rely on fuel to get them home anyway.

Berty

It really depends on your usage when it comes to battery draw/drain, the Tucson itself has a curious recharge process when using ECO mode versus Sport Mode. If you use ECO mode when the car runs out of juice the car will slowly get itself back up around 25% and kick back in with EV when it can but on Sport mode the percent can climb higher. Issue with that is that the gear changes are widened and your revs run higher so arguably you might use more fuel getting a higher charge back into the car. When I'm on a Motorway and holding on cruise I will put on Sport mode as even with 100%, starting off, it will drain as the max of 60kms will go by in 30 mins if doing around 120kmh.

Like I say I've driven this car on HEV mode from home to South West France and back and when I went to the UK recently I didn't even bother plugging it in anywhere. I still averaged good MPG, nowhere near my Diesel car which would have given me around 60-65mpg but a lot better than just a straight petrol car.

What you will notice with your PHEV Tucson, if not noticed already, is white smoke/steam on colder mornings and maybe even a billow of white smoke/steam from the car when you move off(outside of EV Mode). It has been queried many times on Hyundai forums and it is normal, it is water vapour coming from the movement into HEV/Petrol from EV where there is condensation which is being burned off/evaporating. I have had this a lot recently but this morning it was 10 degrees and I floored it to see what would come out the back, barely a puff akin to a normal car running a regular engine.

On granny charging, I was granny charging from March 23 to Dec 23 because I couldn't get a Type 2 installed because of my older pre pay meter, when upgrades where done and the Wallbox was installed the granny cable was stored away. I also had an external socket installed for this and set it to draw 10amp(hold down the button on the granny charger and you can change the amps from 6/8/10) and never blew anything. It was connected to an internal double socket and the only high draw on that was a lamp on a timer so guess I didn't put extra pressure on it.

Finochet

Again great info thanks.

If I change the amps on Granny charger, which is less likely to blow ELCB high or low? ( 6 or 10)

My knowledge of electrics is somewhere between sketchy and non existent. I recall years ago putting lower value fuses into plugs would blow fuse board quicker than a higher value fuse in plug might.

rabbitinlights

I would stick with 6amps and see how you get on for a few charges, maybe bump to 8 if you feel it's ok?

SeanaciousD

My thoughts as a former owner of a PHEV 2016 BMW 330e. Owned 5 years from 40km to 120km

First the positive:

1) Car was issue free for my entire ownership of it

2) I averaged 4L/100km and 9kWh/100km, not bad for a car remapped to 390 BHP ;)

3) Preconditioning was a nice bonus feature not available on the normal petrol diesel 330i/330d.

4) At the time, the 330e was much cheaper to buy (UK import), tax, insure, and run than a 330i/d

5) Held its value really well, bought for 20k sold for 16k, will never see that happen again!

However, this car (and all PHEV's) have one big looming problem: Battery degradation. This is particularly bad for PHEVs because:

1) They have a small battery to begin with, so capacity loss is very noticeable.

2) Almost every drive results in a full discharge and then charge cycle, which is not what lithium batteries like.

I saw this bear out through my ownership, with my EV range dropping from 24km to 14km, and battery capacity (according to my Zappi) drop from 5.4kWh to 3.8kWh.

For PHEV's, this is an inevitability. Pretty much all PHEV's are NMC batteries, meaning they have a lifespan of around 3000-5000 charge/discharge cycles (and I'm being generous there). So for my BMW, if I took an average of 20km per charge, that would mean my battery lifespan is about 60,000-100,000km of EV driving. My 120km car did about 50% of that mileage on battery, so that checks out. PHEV's with bigger batteries do better obviously, but a majority of modern PHEV's still have ~50km of real-world range, putting them in the 150,000-250,000km range of EV battery lifespan. Not bad, but still something that will need to be watched out for with older PHEV's in the used market. Enthusiasts like us here might know how to check the battery health, but most people don't and might be very put off by EV's if they buy a used PHEV and it gives them battery problems.

For full EV's of course this is far less of a problem, as they have huge batteries and range, and are rarely ever fully charged/discharged. LFP batteries reduce this issue to almost non-existence too, with 5000-10000 cycles giving them an EV range in the millions of kms. An LFP battery in a PHEV would actually be great at helping with this issue.

But if you plan on owning a PHEV long-term or buying one used, it's something you need to be prepared for.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773983#Comment_121773983

That seems like a really bad EV set up. So on a cold day can you not use the car in EV mode without the engine interfering? Most PHEV’s you can pre heat the cabin and continue using the heater while driving without the engine interfering at all.

Flinty997

It's there any way to stop charging at 90% and don't fully discharge it, on a phev?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774734#Comment_121774734

Very interesting insight. My driving (in diesel) sees me drive long distances same day - ie above the practical range of most EV’s. I don’t do these drives everyday, generally the car sits outside for days when I’m not driving it.

As such I would be emptying the battery on a high enough portion of my drives - would this likely lead to greater battery degradation that somebody who drives say 100km every day?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774156#Comment_121774156

On these long motorway drives with a depleted battery what economy are you seeing - you say it’s less than the 60/ 65mpg you got with your old diesel but is it 35mpg or 45mpg or better? I’ve heard the PHEV Niro gives 50mpg with battery depleted but I’m guessing with all the extra power the Tuscon is quite bit less?