Are PHEVs bad?

maidhc

I am genuinely curious as to this. In previous threads I mentioned I have had a RAV4 PHEV (or Prime to our American cousins). It has been quite excellent. Wonderful performance and has probably burnt no more than 10 tanks of petrol in 40k kms (a home charger outside the front door helps here, pretty much all the petrol was for longer journeys) It is leaving me soon for a new one and the cost to charge was very competitive. Aside from the high initial price it has been a very cost effective car, and clearly very environmentally friendly.

It also can tow a trailer, wade 500mm, has awd with “locking diffs” and does 40mpg+ on petrol only.

It may sound like I sell Toyotas (I dont, although can’t look beyond the marque since MB threw it all away in the late 90s and again more recently with the Renaults…), but I can’t understand why people will endure a BEV and the infrastructure limitations, or god bless even a diesel when such vehicles exist.

StupidLikeAFox

You will probably hear that it is "the worst of both worlds" - for example you take pride in not having used much petrol, but if you had an electric you would have used zero petrol and there is a hundred less things to go wrong when you take out the petrol system, cheaper servicing etc. Based on your details you would rarely have to suffer the charging infrastructure either using a full EV.

Not sure about the towing capabilities of EVs or how often you have to wade into water, so your particular case might mean a PHEV is best for you for when you need to tow. Although I seem to recall that all batteries in BEV are completely sealed so might be able to wade in as well

Basically if you can charge at home or work and do less than 300/400km a day (which let's face it, is 90% of people) then you are fine with an EV, if neither of these things apply then there is little difference between an ICE will be just as or more efficient PHEV

For what it's worth I have a PHEV which I really like, so I'm not judging you!

Buddy Bubs

My reasons for giving up on my PHEV, a 2018 530e doing 20 to 30kms on battery in favour of a 2nd EV

Always being close to empty battery and trying to eek out electric range probably took away from enjoying the car as much as I should have. Always watching the numbers.

Plugging in every day

Girlfriend never ever plugging in (not the cars fault, she doesn't take the bins out either but that's a different matter!)

Complex ICE engine and gearbox to go wrong

Using about 50% on petrol anyway

Nowadays I'm only concerned about battery level once in a blue moon in the EVs. I have my charging spots on my long work trips sorted, mostly with destination charging.

For what it's worth, I kind of like the idea of PHEV. If there was a genuine 80km battery on one I liked I'd be happy with it for day to day stuff.

cc

I think the main issue is that a lot of PHEVs just get driven like standard hybrids (fleet cars especially) so emissions output vastly understated

KAGY

I think this is because you hear the negatives from both the ICE and BEV fans. But they are a compromise that can be ideal when considered on a case by case basis, like yourself.

I bought one because we needed 7 seats, occasional towing, liked the security of petrol when we camp and haven't easy access to charging. Our daily school runs don't normally exceed 50k so a €70 fill would typically last a month.

That being said, when changing in two or 3 years time it will probably be a BEV due to increased range and different family needs.

Flinty997

I think the reason Govt don't like them is because a significant number of people don't charge them very much, and overall they don't help enough with emission targets. That said I can't find any really good data or reports to back that up. Maybe that's an urban myth.

For me personally I couldn't get the battery range I wanted in a decently priced used phev. They all seemed over priced with batteries that are too small. I'd have buy a new one. I'm not sure if that's changed with all the recent price cuts. I'm seeing more popup now.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121732771#Comment_121732771

What 7 seater Phev?

frank730

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121732778#Comment_121732778

there are a few options, hyundai santa fe for example

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058335064/why-are-phevs-bad

Probably for the same reasons that you can't understand that BEVs are better suited to some people than PHEVs and other people need diesels :). It sounds like in your case you've got the perfect car for your needs which is great, many people take a few goes to find the car that works for their lifestyle. I think if PHEVs were used as intended/marketed by their manufacturers, they would be looked on more positively by the govt/public. Toyota's disingenuous marketing of their 'self charging' hybrids is unfortunate and PHEVs incorrectly get tarred also with the same brush.

rodderss

I bought a 330e previously, the electric range is very low but it gets me around to do errands whereas I won't make it to work on ev mode only.

All told the running costs are very low for what it is .

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058335064/why-are-phevs-bad

The big thing you forgot to mention is price,

55k for a brand new RAV4! Other brands have similarly high prices.

Compare that to the price of a Model Y, or even a Santa Fe and you are paying a premium for having the best if both worlds.

Now a few years ago the was a lot of 2nd hand cars coming from the UK market and they were good value, but the new ones are crazy prices.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121732773#Comment_121732773

That said I can't find any really good data or reports to back that up. Maybe that's an urban myth.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/plug-in-hybrids-2-0-still-not-a-solution-for-the-climate/

Flinty997

Seemed cheaper to me to have one small EV short range and a second ICE car. That coming from two ICE Cars already.

But if I was downsizing to one car I'd consider a phev but only if it had 100k ish range on the battery in winter.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121732904#Comment_121732904

2024 battery range 57km. Too short for me.

We nearly bought an Xceed hybrid but went full BEV when we did the figures.

The hybrid would have been great if we charged each way daily for commute (150km return).

Servicing and petrol costs (90km motorway) made the EV cheaper.

I also asked garages what happens to a petrol engine if a hybrid always runs in EV mode,

GTE

I feel that the variability of PHEV performance has something to do with people slating them.

I used to own a Mercedes C350e and that was a waste of money. It was my number two choice, as the Passat GTE was out of my price range at the time (the Passat was more expensive to get for the same year as it was a much better PHEV). I ended up selling the C350e and replaced it with a Passat GTE and the difference was night and day.

The C350e was worse on fuel than my previous diesel for my commute (starting on full battery). The GTE had a bigger battery, but was also more efficient as an EV. Its petrol engine was also a lot more efficient too meaning I could get same or better fuel economy on long motorway trips if I started with a full battery. If I started with no battery, the fuel economy was not that much worse than a 2.0 TDI.

Long story short, I could get thousands of KM per tank of petrol on the GTE where I was filling up as regularly as my diesel when I had the C350e. With that said, I had the benefit of a 40km daily commute, but anything longer would still have been decent.

Miscreant

I had a PHEV Ioniq for over 2 years and I found it to be a great car. They don't get a lot of love in here, granted, but I actually miss the car occasionally now that I have a BEV.

I only changed to BEV because I wanted to (not out of necessity) but there have been times when I have almost regretted the decision. This mostly happens on long trips where I have to use a fast charger whereas the Ioniq could keep going or just needed a quick 5 minute petrol top up. The electric only range of 60km was perfect for my daily use and I only charged the car 2 to 3 times a week, such is my commute. If you can keep within that range and charge regularly, then there is no reason why a PHEV would not suit. At one point, I went 6 months without the need to refuel with petrol and only then because I drove to Galway and back from Dublin.

I may go back to PHEV at some point but as someone else here has said, I too would want an EV range of at least 100Kms to make it attractive to me. The thing I like about my BEV is not having to charge it every 2 or 3 days for my normal usage so I can go 2 weeks without charging. One the other hand, I would like to have a car that can do the Galway-Dublin return route in one shot without stopping and perhaps BEV range will be such that this will be possible without spending crazy amounts of money on a heavily depreciating asset. Before someone asks... yes, when I go to Galway, I usually visit family in several different places and head home in the evening and I would rather not have to stop anywhere for 30 minutes. I used to do this every 2 weeks in the past but now it is only every few months so the BEV is fine for this journey; having a BEV that could cater for that journey profile would mean not even thinking about a PHEV in future.

To sum up, PHEVs should get more love than they do. I recommend them to friends and family who are not ready to go full BEV and I think they are an easy way to get people used to plugging in and charging. It also gives people a taste of how cheap driving on electricity can be. PHEVs are a gateway drug to BEV 😁

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734227#Comment_121734227

The GTE came out in 2015, yet your account is from 2005.

Did you get your username changed or in 2005 did you have the gift of seeing into the future?

Flinty997

Astra GTE maybe

Casati

I really like the idea of Phev’s. Number one reason not mentioned is that they are mostly just 7% vrt so are getting more car for your money (and paying less tax).

Obviously never having to use an super expensive charging station or having to ask your Mammy / friend/ customer / B&B owner to tap into their electricity would seem like a super attractive option, especially if you read the forums on public charging problems.

The other reason is that they look like a normal car and not an oddly designed EV, though the RAV4 is no looker. They are sold by established brands with dealer facilities including tradein options. Your cost to change on the Rav is arguably less than any EV?

You asked why buy a diesel over one - having done the sums diesel is still the best option for me, I can claim VAT back so it’s quite a bit cheaper to fuel while being reasonable to buy new. The also offer other advantages which I will get shouted down for here. A lot of other drivers are similar. The only diesel PHEV is Mercedes - I often question why VAG or Stelentis group don’t do one?

New PHEV’s like the just announced Kodiaq offer 100km range, as do others like the latest Volvo XC60 but 50km would cover 90% of people’s daily driving 90% of the time. I know many happy PHEV owners as a result.

I don’t get the comment about having to charge nightly being a problem, surely it becomes memory muscle, ie when you park up for the night you just get in the habit of plugging in? Doesn’t sound like much hardship.

KAGY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121732778#Comment_121732778

Kia Sorrento

NIMAN

I like my phev.

It's charged practically every night, unless it hasn't been on the road that day.

That's how they are meant to be used. Most of its use is in electric mode.

I'd guess are loads of owners whose phev rarely see a charging plug.

munchkin_utd

the issue is simply that the buyers/ initial owners of these cars generally only choose them to get the tax break/ benefit in kind advantage but then many use them exclusively on petrol, so they get all the tax benefits for an electric car but are polluting like a normal petrol.

I would have thought that anyone buying them second hand like NIMAN and others above would be more likely to use the car as intended but surveys seem biased to exclusively surveying new owners/ company car owners getting the tax breaks directly, and not thinking about the full life of the car and emissions saved down the road by people for whom a PHEV makes sense.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734821#Comment_121734821

50km seems like a lot but it decreases a lot with the heater and stuff on and in cold weather. 100km would be decent tho. I found it a bit poxy having to plug in every night, especially during winter. And then sometimes other cars in the garden can be blocking the charger, and then you end up running out of battery the next day defeating the purpose of buying a PHEV. I much rather just plugging in once a week

GPoint

Anyone has experience with Ford kuga PHEV?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735497#Comment_121735497

None but you can see the specs. 66km range on a very good day and 14kwh battery.

Similar to all these Phevs. You'd have to see how much of your daily driving you can do on the battery.

GPoint

Seen the specs alright but wanted first hand experience feedback from someone.

NIMAN

As with all evs , the range falls off during the cold winter days and nights. It actually seems to be affected more than my full ev, although I wouldn't see any reason for that.

But with mine I can still do my commute to work in winter with maybe 20% left, and charge back to 100% free of charge,before heading home.

Ive a Kuga phev . Can't fault it for economy. 2.7l/100km

Charge it at night for less than €2. It does most of my local driving .

Drive 75km to Slea head on Monday on a flat battery and half my driving was still electric.

Found my driving is more measured which is more economical.

Spent a tenner a day on diesel on my last car

I like the power of the 2.5 L engine. It's great to get out of a tight spot or overtake.

GPoint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735664#Comment_121735664

Great stuff!

Wonder when the facelifted version coming here. Seen reviews of Ford escape in the us and got interested

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734821#Comment_121734821

Yes, the cost to charge was diametrically opposed to the experiences ev owners have had. The RAV is definitely not a looker, but imo wonderful value for money considering the lump of engineering you get.

i also bought a new Camry plain hybrid to replace a diesel. Yes, the loss of the reclaimed vat hurts as does the loss of being able to keep 700L of fuel at home, but the mpg of the Camry (vs a 2.0 diesel avensis) makes up for it almost. I don’t miss the manual transmission mind.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121737276#Comment_121737276

How was the cost of charging your PHEV so incredibly expensive compared to running an EV? I would of expected that part of it to be roughly the same

Also have a PHEV, I see it as the very best of both worlds. The vast majority of my car trips are under 20kms so I drive cheaply on electric charge, but when I do have to drive longer distances, I don’t have range anxiety or have to plan on stopping to charge. The jeep was cheaper than its petrol/diesel siblings, and it’s dirt cheap to tax for such a big unit.

There is no down side for me to a PHEV.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738002#Comment_121738002

How is heating and performance in the EV mode compared to the normal mode and/or an equivalent EV car? There seem to be great variations between models and some PHEVs don't offer much.

DirkG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735497#Comment_121735497

Yes, I picked up an ex-demo in October.

It is a fine car, arguably a better PHEV implementation than the RAV4 and quite a bit cheaper. I came very close to buying a Tesla MY but an occasional need to tow over large distances made me plump for a PHEV.

As mentioned by others, PHEVs are pointless unless you plug them in every night (else your driving an overweight overpriced FHEV). The Kuga FHEV is a formidable option, not as trendy but the weight advantage means it is potentially as efficient at a lower price. Another upside is that you don't have to faff around with home or public chargers with either. The granny charger that comes with the PHEV is perfectly matched to its (slow) charge speed. Power is great and its much more economical than the (fine)2l diesel I used to run.

I'm very happy with my PHEV, in particular the absence of range anxiety. The new Kuga FHEV boast a tow limit of 2200 - starting to make family diesels redundant.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738347#Comment_121738347

The Rav has a heat pump, so no issues. Engine generally stays off at all times.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121737960#Comment_121737960

The cost to go up 2 years worked out at under 9k if I went like for like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738347#Comment_121738347

I was close to buying an EV car recently but for various reasons didn’t take the plunge so I can’t offer a comparison on a full EV. I tend to drive on full EV until charge is gone, then it changes over to petrol and is thirsty, but I expect that given its weight/3L engine.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738478#Comment_121738478

Ahh ok, you'd said cost to charge instead of cost to change. Was trying to work out what would make charging a PHEV so expensive 😁

Cost to change from ev to ev is largely similar, its only really people changing from an EV back to Diesel that have been stung by the price cut induced depreciation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738529#Comment_121738529

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738478#Comment_121738478

How's the performance in the EV only mode compared to the PHEV mode? Heatpump in Toyota is definitely good news as some other PHEVs don't have any heat unless the engine is running and/or the EV range totally collapses with resistive only heat.

DirkG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738638#Comment_121738638

I think both the Kuga and RAV4 have similar electric-only power output ~110bhp. Performance is good, but you find yourself driving sedately. If you engage both in "Sport" mode your accessing 200Bhp+ with fast throttle response - you definitely notice!

Really enjoying the pre-heat feature in the Kuga, you can set a departure schedule to preheat the car and have the car fully defrosted and comfortably warm. This is all electric, except in sub-zero temps where the engine is fired up for a bit.

Flinty997

Does it have a heated windscreen?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738532#Comment_121738532

Dont think many people are trading up like for like family sized EV’s for 8k/9k after two years, it’s way more expensive based on input on boards and Facebook. Even with price cuts I’m hearing 15k+ to change up ID4’s, 20k+ to trade up Ioniq’s or EV6’s. Enyaq’s even more. To be clear that’s trading 2022 into a 2024

Potentially trading up Model 3 if you sell private for maybe 29k and buy for 41k that’s 12k, but obviously you need to be skilled at used car sales to pull that off which most people are’nt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738693#Comment_121738693

Just to comment on the pre heat function which is great. The charger needs to be on fast charge mode not scheduled so the power is available to recharge the battery while preheating

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738638#Comment_121738638

toyota say it compares to a 2.0 petrol in ev mode. I think that’s probably a fair enough comparison having driven 2.0 petrols for years.

It always defaults to ev only mode each morning, but you can switch it to auto ev/hv where the petrol will come on when you kickdown: I find the torque of the petrol really helps at higher overtaking speeds when the electric motors have lost their punch.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738851#Comment_121738851

I'm seeing a lot of people saying they've lost numbers like that on valuation but the prices have also come down by a few thousand. If you've lost 15k on what you paid and the new car cost 5k less then you are spending 10k to trade up. The people complaining about how much they've lost very rarely give a cost to change number unless they switch to a different fuel type.

There are still a few brands that haven't dropped prices (Hyundai) to account for where the market has move, those are the ones where you're really going to be stung. It's much harder to justify the price of an Ioniq 5 vs the competitors than it was 18 months ago.

Where there the same price increase in the PHEVs over the last two years and will we see similar reductions?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739247#Comment_121739247

My numbers are cost to change, the deprecation numbers are way higher!

FaganJr

What about the new Nissan Quashqai and the Mazda MX 30 REV?

Are they plug in or do they recharge with the engine?

Or are they a different configuration altogether?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740388#Comment_121740388

The MX 30 R-EV is a range extender EV with a very small battery, similar to the BMW I3 REX. The Nissan e-power system is just a series hybrid. Both of them have a petrol engine on board which is used to generate electricity and cannot be used to directly drive the wheels. The Mazda at least allows you to plug in at home to take advantage of cheap overnight electricity rates.

The main distinction between and Range Extended BEV vs a PHEV is whether the petrol engine can drive the wheels.

Finochet

As a cautious oul fella taking his first step. I've bought a Tucson phev but await the ESB to certify the installation process of wall box for charging at home . What availability is there publicly to charge? I assume it's a type 2(T2) I require. Are there T2 tethered public charging spots that work for a phev? Again I presume when it's switched on the house wall box will charge at up 7 kw speed. Would a 22 kw public charger set the car on fire? How do I check out tethered locations?

Any guidance will be gratefully accepted. Thanks

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773686#Comment_121773686

When on AC the car will decide what the maximum is. The charge point is only an outlet, the charger is on board the car. Most modern EVs can take between 7 and 11kW when on an AC charge point. Public ones are usually 3 phase, so will allow about 11kW, single phase home charge points about 7kW. A few cars, notably the Renault Zoe and earlier Teslas can take the full 22kW. These charge points use the type 2 socket, standard on almost all new cars.

I do not know what AC power your PHEV can accept. I believe many can only take 3 or 4kW. But there is no danger on a higher powered charge point, as I said the charger is in your car and it will decide.

Berty

As a Tucson PHEV owner with a walbox plus installation I can tell you mine hovers around 7.2kw when charging. I do not use public charging. I have once as a test really locally and a few times outside the country(took the car to France and UK) but of late I don't anymore bother to public charge.

I use the home charger all the time but If I've a long trip and the battery depletes then I won't go looking to charge it, I'll just let the car work in HEV mode. I do have a type 2 cable in the boot which I bought on Amazon as when I have to go to the work office(rarely) they've a free charge point to plug into.

I'll say this about the car , battery and weather. The last few days it has gotten better as the battery has been struggling to stay engaged when the temperature is below 10 degrees and you're using the interior heaters. Warmer temperatures the car is nearly always in EV mode, except for initial startup in the mornings but hitting EV mode maybe in 5 minutes.