Help please regarding new handicap system

ncawley

Hi

I live in london. Im a member of a golf club there and an overseas member of a golf club in Ireland. I dont get an opportunity to play many comps- I played 6 in 2023 all in ireland as I spend a lot of the summer at home.

so.... i wish to enter the matchplay comp in London this year- they say I need to have 10 entries in my handicap record for 2023 of which 3 must be comps and rest can be general play. results from Ireland are recognised under new world system.

Question- can I play rounds with my buddies in next few weeks and record them as general play? In the old days golf rounds wouldnt alter your handicap due to winter rules. Is this still the case and general play can only resume later in the year?

Please forgive the basic nature of this question. Im keen to play in the matchplay as I got to the semi final last year and they had no such requirement so all new...

Regards

ncawley

coillcam

Depends if the club accept 6 scores from 2023 + 4 new scores from 2024 to make up the 10.

Otherwise you're short of the 10 required rounds for 2023.

Regardless of this you can enter general play rounds on your record now BUT only if they are played in counting conditions.

Eg my local parkland has placing everywhere and winter tees. So the course is not in counting condition so I cant enter a general play round.

If you go play a links course it would be much more likely to be in counting. Still worth checking with the course ahead of time. It's possible they have the the course turned off on the system so you can't enter a score.

ncawley

Thanks Coillcam for that.

Yes - as long as I have 10 counting events before end march its ok.

I'm back in Ireland next weekend - i'll be in the Dublin and Galway areas- anyone know any courses which are in counting condition?

Regards

Nbc

spacecoyote

Basically any links in the area should work, problem might be getting out on them

If you can stretch your legs down a little further south, the like of Arklow are running opens that are qualifying conditions midweek

coillcam

Just a thought but I don't know how it would be perceived by the club hc secretary and Golf Ireland. In theory you might be able to get two scores from a course on your record.

Eg Play the front 9 as one score, submit and attest this. Then play the back 9 in the same manner. It would be two WHS scores on your record.

However, I'm not sure if the app or Golf Ireland allows for this. It's arguable that this behaviour that bandits could exploit to massage out their index.

The hc secretary might also delete two 9s and re-create an 18 hole score instead. It would be clear you intended to play 18.

Alternatively just play two different courses for 9 each on the same day. That's a much more reasonable scenario.

El Guapo!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739070#Comment_121739070

I thought there was some rule against submitting 2 qualifying scores on the same day?

Could be misremembering but I'm nearly sure I read something like that before.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739638#Comment_121739638

There may well be tbh. Def two scores from the same course would send out the bat signal for the hc secretary.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739638#Comment_121739638

I often play two rounds a day (on different courses) and submit both (albeit with a poor final 9!!!)

El Guapo!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740590#Comment_121740590

Yeah now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure the rule is against sticking in two scores from the same course on the one day.

Golfgraffix

Nope, if done it a few times. App allows it

El Guapo!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740694#Comment_121740694

Ok thanks. I was convinced I had read the opposite on here somewhere.

spacecoyote

Now is the time to get that in though if you're planning to work the system, as once the changes come in, it holds a 9 hole score until it has a second 9 to match it to, as far as I know

Golfgraffix

Still haven’t seen it that’s been ratified here, like in the US. Wonder if it goes through

billy3sheets

A few clarifications required here I think.

1. You must submit 54 holes to get a handicap, can be 6×9s, 3x18s or any combination thereof.

2. System will accept scores from any course but handicap secretary may not or there may be a local rule mandating that they must all be on the course you're a member of.

3. You are likely going to be required to submit physical cards signed by a GUI member and fill in an application form too.

Best to check first with your Handicap Committee what is required.

ncawley

Thanks Guys for responses

I have a handicap for many years. I simply would like to enter my UK club's matchplay events in 2024 as I enjoy matchplay and they have a new rule that insists on 10 WHS entries. I have 6. I need to have another 4 over the next few weeks. the problem is that I work most weekends so my only opportunity is generally when I go home to Dublin one weekend a month.

So next weekend I am happy to play sat and sun and can get a mate to tag along and do two general play entries for me. But I dnt wnat to go to a course and find out afterwards that the round doesnt count for whatever reason- winter rules in operation etc. How can I find out prior to playing whether all will be ok?

cheers guys

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742218#Comment_121742218

You'll need to ring the club and ask if the course is in qualifying condition for handicaps. Basically if you're allowed to lift and place in the rough it's non-qualifying (there are a few other conditions but I think this is the main one).

Unless you're playing a links course the answer will almost certainly be that rounds are not qualifying.

ncawley

Cheers Awec,

Yip I guess the links would be an option. Anyone know any dry parklands that might be qualifying ?

JVince

Try woodbrook in bray. Beautiful course and no winter rules in late Nov when I was there.

WHS available for casual golf by visitors

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742731#Comment_121742731

Very unlikely and Golf Ireland considers winter golf as Oct-Mar. The vast majority of courses are non-counting during this period. It would be a waste of your time calling parkland courses to be blunt.

You'll have to pick links courses and call their pro shops. Ask specifically if the course is playing in counting condition for a WHS score and if the tees are "turned on" in the Golf Ireland system. To be doubly sure, keep your cards from the rounds you play and hand them over to your HC secretary back in England. I know they will accept overseas scores in my home course but require the physical cards and they are meant to contact the course to verify you played.

It's all hassle but you'll need to put in the leg work here. Get a list of links courses nearby and start banging out the calls. Hopefully, you get it all sorted in time and some nice weather on the links!

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739070#Comment_121739070

A lot of handicap secretaries are really frustrated by this loophole.

Technically it is allowed, but very much frowned upon. Some clubs have had a torrid time with handicap builders using this method to rapidly lose good scores off the end of their records.

Submitting 2 scores on the same course on the same day is a grey area. The app will allow it, but it may be stopped by handicap committees. The original instruction from Golf Ireland was to watch out for and remove the second score - unless it was a scheduled 27 or 36 hole scratch cup. Golf Ireland appear to have backtracked on this.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742731#Comment_121742731

At a very speculative guess, I'd say try:

Blessington Lakes

Millicent

Both usually dry parkland that have been known to have winter qualifiers from time to time

paulos53

Do Carton House still have qualifying competitions every Friday?

Scott Tenorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121746151#Comment_121746151

Millicent isn’t qualifying at the moment. Course is still very wet.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741263#Comment_121741263

no it's not going to happen like that

it will just add an expected score for the other 9, but the calculation will change

at least im pretty sure that is what I read last week.... now that I'm on the inside 😎

Golfgraffix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748400#Comment_121748400

They’ve missed an opportunity to level up 9 hole scores by not doing it.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121749694#Comment_121749694

Have out lot ever been proactive.

Never.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748400#Comment_121748400

What is it exactly?

Say you play 13 holes and retire injured. Or it's a 12 hole comp in counting condition.

Is there an algorithm to extend it out and make an 18 total..?

Golfgraffix

At the moment when you have a 9 hole counting round it adds an expected score (17 points I think) to your round.

In the US, your 9 hole round does not count until you have another one, then the two are added together.

spacecoyote

And they're changing to allow qualifying for 10-17 hole rounds too with a similar approach to what is currently in place for 9?

Sorbet

Newbie question - I’ve only submitted my cards last summer to get my initial handicap. Played casual golf that summer and only realised that you get out of counting rounds territory when the weather changes. So have no counting rounds since and want to improve that this season.

When you want to submit a round as a counting round that is also doubling as a stableford competition, can you scratch a hole or do you need to score strokeplay for every hole?

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881271#Comment_121881271

You can scratch a hole, no problem. When you do, the system should give you two options:

1. Played the hole but didn't score, or,

2. Didn't play the hole

If you scratched, you pick option 1 and the system will sort the rest for handicap purposes

Sorbet

Brilliant thanks for that.

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881271#Comment_121881271

I presume it is a general play score you are talking about?

Is the stableford competition run by a society?

Sorbet

I was talking more about any competition - I incorrectly thought that you would have to finish out a hole even if you weren’t going to score in stableford, which would be very annoying for playing partners and as a result I wouldn’t have done it. The upcoming Boards society prompted the question though.

Kingswood Rover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121746151#Comment_121746151

Blessed Nine qualifying all the time folks even when its wet underfoot.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884276#Comment_121884276

For the Boards outing, we'll be asking that everyone log their rounds as general play on the GI app.

So you'll be able to just play the round as a stableford round. Then use your card afterwards to fill in the score in the app. One of your playing partners will be able to attest the round for you

Sorbet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885438#Comment_121885438

Really clear thanks.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881528#Comment_121881528

When you say the system sorts the rest out, is it just treated the same as the net double bogey rule for bad holes?

So if it's a par 3 that I had 1 shot on and I pick up after 7 strokes to improve the pace of play, that's just counted as a 6 by the handicap system when I pick option 1?

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886027#Comment_121886027

Even if you finish out with a 10 the system will adjust that to a 6

BoardsMember

Starting to play golf again after 7 or 8 years not a member. I've just read a general email from the Club and they're saying I need 20 cards for a "fully developed handicap", without which I'm not entitles to play in club matchplay competitions, or win club competitions. And cards are only acceptable when winter rules lift. It could be 3 years or more before I get 20 rounds of 18 holes. Seems bananas.

plumber77

That's very severe, I've never heard of a club doing that for ordinary club comps maybe with the exception of interclub and captains.

But also why are you joining a club if you're only going to play an average of 7 rounds per year. Do you realise casual golf can be counted in your 20 scores.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890003#Comment_121890003

My main takeaway here is to put in as many general play scores as possible when the season opens. Get out for 9 a couple of times a week where possible.

Our club has something like this in place too. I believe it's for majors (all prizes) and first prizes in normal comps. Didn't see anything about matchplay comps though. I think it's at least 20 scores and at least 5 must be competitions. No-one can get counting scores in winter golf on most courses. So it's very hard on new players or those who haven't played much.

The reason why these limitations have been brought in is understandable. Most regular competition players can't get a huge score as their ability and handicap are in a well-established sync. New players and those with a small number of cards will have a handicap that's in constant flux vs their ability. So it's easy for a huge score or two to appear.

Previously handicap secretaries would have put someone on a low handicap like 18 for a new player. It would take them time to learn before the index creeps up and ability improves so they are in sync. The current system means that same player could get a 36 handicap and have obvious potential to improve very fast in 3 months. Very likely that they will shoot a score well under their index and blow away the field in a competition as they start to reach their potential.

I suppose the committees are trying to look at it in two ways:

1. The long term members and regular comp entrants have a reasonable chance to win a comp each week without a cricket score.
2. New members are encouraged to develop their game and handicap to be closer to their potential.

There are some lower/mid index players in my club who believe they have a divine right to win prizes in comps. New players, myself, regulars etc - none of us have the right to win a prize. No matter when WHS requirements or competition rules are in place, we'll never all be satisfied. WHS isn't perfect and is changing every year. It's hard to know what is the fairest way of dealing with this tbh as you'll always make it hard for some groups.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121890984#Comment_121890984

I was thinking rounds of 18. I'd be doing well to get out twice a month on a Saturday for 18 holes. And the window isn't that long for non winter rules.

Some good advice from coillcam about getting in as many 9 holes as possible. I need to check the "20 scores" assertion to see if that's 20 x 9 holes, if 9 holes only count towards half a score, or if they don't count at all.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891907#Comment_121891907

Agree with how difficult it is to protect the field from newly handicapped bandits. In the old days they'd give you a severe reduction against your scores from 3 cards and let you work your way back up. In my club anyway. I'd even be happy to play off 8 or 9, which is where I was when I gave up. I'd be miles off that now, but at least I'd be "competing" and would get to my right handicap sooner than 20 x 18 holes.

BoardsMember

I found this link: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/2024-revision/2024-treatment-of-9-hole-scores-FAQ.html

Seems like the new system adjusts 9 holes (can be casual golf) and counts them fully as one of the 20 required, so happy days. If I can get out once a week for 9 holes, and then a run of weekends, I might have my 20 before winter rules kick in again.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121892356#Comment_121892356

I don't think it's fair to say newly handicapped bandits. Most new players haven't a notion about how handicaps work, they'd struggle to determine their stableford points correctly never mind trying to be a bandit. New players just want to play golf, have fun and get better. They're not thinking about how to sneakily pad their record to gain strokes.

The actual bandits have a huge number of scores on their record. They strategically pull the handbrake at the end of the majors and then as soon as the season opens. So they're always optimising to gain shots back for majors. The only thing you can do is to spread out majors at the beginning, middle and end of the season so they can't pad their record for half of the year.

Following your other post the system will now also process any number of holes between 9-18 to get a score differential. 10, 12,15 etc doesn't matter the system will give you a score and add it to the record. So more comps that are 12/15 holes will be included. Anything that puts more scores on people's records should in general be a positive as it's a better reflection of your current form and ability.

You could get a full handicap record in 6 weeks but if you have a significant other it might be a problem 😁. Midweek play 2x 9 holes general play and a comp at the weekend. That fulfills your requirements surely. 6x comps on that record must be enough. You just need to make sure someone can approve your rounds on the GI app for the 9 holes.

BoardsMember

Thanks @coillcam - you're right, it's not fair/accurate to say newly handicapped members are bandits. And agreed, the new system where 9+ holes general play counts towards one of the twenty is very handy indeed. That said, I'm not sure I'd have a significant other if I got a 20 scores in 6 weeks.

On your last comment, what does "You just need to make sure someone can approve your rounds on the GI app for the 9 holes" mean. I think I need to register my intention before general play that I'll be submitting a card, right? And I need a marker. Is there an App I need to use? There's a computer in the club, my ingoing assumption was I'd use this, but maybe there's an easier way.

Seve OB

https://apps.apple.com/ie/app/golf-ireland/id1525650676

someone else might post Android app link