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3D Printed Guns

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  • 02-02-2024 2:22pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭


    I noticed lately that there have been quite a few articles on 3D printed weapons in the newspapers; specifically assault rifles and pistols. It's a trend in the United States now to manufacture your own firearms. What I want to know is why is this new? I would have thought that CNC machines could already do this?



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    There have been functional 3D printed firearms. But I think it’s an exaggeration to claim 3D assault rifles. There have been AR15 with printed parts, that’s not the sane thing.

    As for why they’ve become popular? 3D printers are inexpensive, small and designs are openly distributed.

    I suppose it was always possible to make them via CNC too. But CNCmachines are large and expensive. Even with access to CNC, you’d need a a design. You can prob download one now, but 10-20 years ago, you’d be designing it yourself. A big ask.

    America has had DIY firearms for years, long before 3D printing. Kit guns. All the parts (include a stamped metal sheet, which instructions to fold into a lower.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Media/political hype.

    The simple answer is with a bit of knowledge(easily acquired from metalworking books/videos) and some basic tools anyone can fabricate firearms.

    Look at what they do in the wilds of Pakistan:

    https://youtu.be/WajlQj8XJuU?si=faxc-nQlWHU3DJ5F&t=281


    But this 3d printing stuff has been hit upon as something to be politicised and thus the politicians and media have taken hold of it with a lot of unnecessary hype and vitriol.


    How unusual.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭kunekunesika


    Fusion 360, solid works, youtube and cheap 3d printers are all really only freely available in the past 20yrs. Trick around on your laptop and away you go.

    Give the same chap a CNC mill and he won't know what to do with it. Large skill still required.

    I got a 3d printer in work recently, quick read of the short user guide ( 1 page) and I was printing amazing parts that I had designed.

    Have a CNC mill from 15yrs ago and I still dread using it. It can produce great work, but it works me so hard to get good results.

    So any skilled metalworker can fabricate a firearm with time. Any semi intelligent individual who can use 3d software, or download a design, can easily 3d print parts for a firearm ( except maybe for a good barrel)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    And already there is a method called electro-chemical rifling using pretty simple over-the-counter bits to drill, chamber and ream steel into very serviceable barrels that you could do at home.

    As said it's the new hype for anti-gun politicians and govts to terrify the unknowing with lurid stories of people printing off 3D guns at home to commit murders and mayhem. Or as people who kicked this off like Cody Banks of DEFCAD and J Stark[RIP] with his FGC-9 design[F*K Gun Control 9mm], point out gun bans and confiscation are virtually impossible anymore with the advent of the internet, file sharing and 3D printing and that people who need a gun can easily make one if they need to.

    Hence the logo below.Based on the old Texas battle flag of the Alamo pic of a cannon under the Lone Star to that of a file and changing the logo from" Come and take it" the challenge of the Alamo defenders to Gen Santa Anas Mexican troops to "Cant stop the signal"

    Yet there are designs and plans freely available on the net like the PA Luty SMG or Prof Parabellum that use nothing more complicated than hacksaws and files and at most a LIDL angle grinder and stick welder to make very functional firearms.All the 3D printer does is make the parts a bit quicker.


    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I think you've outlined the big difference. Metal fabrication is a learnable skill, but there is a learning curve. I've done a little bit, and could probably tack together a functioning but clunky single shot block. With 3D printer, somebody else des the work. You just print and assemble. This means that everyone's output can match the best designers.

    This is my experience of CNC vrs 3D printing too. I'll probably knock out some accessories for my rifle in the near future.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭sfakiaman


    As mentioned several times above, this is just media hype to make people think that home made firearms are a new possibility. In ww2 school boys made sten guns in metal work class and anyone who has handled one of these (as I have) can see how simple it would be, I've also handled early improvised Viet Cong guns and pass made Afgan copies of western firearms and all this was before the days of computers or cnc machines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Sten guns and similar sheet metal guns from that era were very cheap and easy to make. Not sure about the claim they made them in metalwork class ( thought they were made by Enfield). Can't imagine the schools of that era have the required presses, drills etc. But any basic metalwork shop could knock them out. Especially now.

    But sten's being easy, doesn't change the fact that 3D printing is even easier. It's perfect for rapid prototyping and the like. The hysteria is that 3D printing will lead to a flood of ghost guns. It won't. Anyone who will 3D print a firearm, would also have machined one. The difficultly is irrelevant really, and that's not what stops people from opening an illegal arms factory. Media always needs something to sensationalise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    It will be time enough to worry when bullets can be printed... 😳 😃

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 9 IrishLass2023


    Actually there is an almost completely 3d printed AR15 known as "The Orca", seriously impressive engineering and skill to produce a full size rifle with almost completely 3d printed parts. I think the only parts that are metal is the bolt, barrel/gas system and springs which can apparently be bought online over in the states.

    It'll be wild to see what people come up in a few years.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    So all the pressure bearing parts must be milled or bought premade, as normal. It's hardly a 3D printed gun then if you're only printing the add ons and without the pressure bearing parts all you have is an Airsoft toy.

    My semi auto was mostly "plastic". As in the grip, stock, lower, mags, and other accessories were all polymer/plastic.

    The upper, barrel, sear, foreguard, gas system, and other pressure bearing parts were metal and this was a bought gun, not one I built.

    I could chop and change the accessories, as listed above, but could not replace the upper, barrel, etc. with something printed as it simply wouldn't stand up to the pressures.

    A 223 can produce upwards of 58,000 psi at the breach. I wouldn't want that within 3 inches of my face if it was printed in someone's bedroom on a €500 plastic printer.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Muzzle break/compensator, barrel, gas block, gas tube, bolt carrier group, bolt, extractor, ejector, firing pin, firing pin spring, buffer mass and spring, charging handle, all of the trigger group, Selector switch, detent, and spring, Mag catch lever, button, and spring, Bolt hold open lever, pin, plunger, and spring.

    All of the above METAL parts are required

    Your definition of "almost completely 3d printed AR15" needs to be redefined

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It’s an impressive piece of engineering. And progress from lower only designs. I think that particular design is quite aesthetic too. But it’s still slightly scaremongery to call them assault rifles. Which is what I was replying to above. Plus a lot more metal parts are still needed compared to a more simple design

    The design above is a printer upper and lower receiver from that I can see. Machined barrel. Not sure about other parts you mentioned.

    Edit:

    it’s upper, lower, handguard, stock (and integrated buffer tube)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Excuse me if I've missed something as I haven't read the majority of the thread, just jumped in today with the last post or two so if there are videos or other showing a fully printed gun being successfully fired then I stand corrected.

    However if the printing only incorporates what may ordinarily be plastic from a store bought gun then it's not a fully 3D printer gun.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    At last someone who can see through the MSN/AntiGun propaganda, he he

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    I mean, you could make a useable gun with a pipe, a nail and a spring.

    The 3D printing stuff is just FUD.

    Another news story that sounds like it could be true, and the vast majority of people don't know enough to question it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    There is this yoke


    Entirely made from plastic, only lasts 1 or 2 shots. Wouldn't fancy using one tbh



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Apart from the barrel insert which is metal on the Liberator design. Aussie police kindly demonstrated a few years ago when the Lib was the scary thing what happens if you don't put an insert in the barrel and then fire it.

    The barrel as was said previously, is not that much of a problem anymore. The Orca design shows you can do away with a separate upper group that can be integrated into an AR 15 platform. Shell casings can be 3D printed too.as can bullets or be cast from scrap lead. Only thing left is getting a reliable and easy method for making nitro powder.


    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    There is ONE truly 3 printed gun, but it is not plastic. It's a 1911 that was made as a proof of concept on a 3D sintered metal printer about 10 years ago by a company called Solid Concepts and cost something ridiculous[$15 k?] on a $ 750k /$1.000000 machine. All the parts were 3d printed and took 7 mins to put it together and test fire. Not exactly in the realms of many gang bangers' finance or engineering capabilities.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I disagree. I’d suggest that key details are lost in the hysteria, along with the point. Whether a firearm is 100% printed or not is kind of irrelevant - it only makes a story more dramatic.

    Yes and No.

    Fully 3D printed firearms have existed. The liberator posted above is more or less all plastic. It is a single shot .380 ACP pistol. Very basic, not durable. There was also an all plastic .22lr rifle called the Grizzly. Other designs include a barrel sleeves to improve durability. As designs gotten more complex. More metal parts were retained from the factory firearms.

    The AR-type referenced above are absolutely not fully 3D printed. Which is why I said “3D printed assault rifles” was an exaggeration and was more like an “AR15 with printed parts”. But I think it’s also incorrect to label them “ordinarily be plastic from a store bought gun”. The parts being printed are extending past typical plastic parts (uppers, conversion kits, etc)

    As @tonysopprano said above, a lot of metal parts are still needed if the firearm is any way complex. But a lot of those parts are not controlled (depending on location). It doesn't matter if you need a metal barrel, if a metal barrel can be purchased easily. Similarly for springs, pins etc. I'm not across purchasing laws in all US states. But my understanding is that that only the lower is serialised, and thus only the lower is the firearm. If somebody prints a lower, could they purchase all pressure bearing parts without issue to assembled a firearm. That seems much more practical than trying to print everything. Here's two examples of 3D printed receivers: AR-15, Charger SA. My understanding is that everything else was purchased "with no paperwork" (maker quote). I have also seen 3D printed Glock frames, Glock switches and an auto sear link.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I don't know, to me a single use thing like that is not a gun. I understand the criminal aspects of such things but criminal aspects don't matter to us on this forum hence 3D printed guns are still, at least to me, a non existent entity that garners far more "bogeyman" status that it should.

    It's like they haven't got enough to worry about so introduce a scare tactic to try and ban them all.

    Won't be long until they regulate 3D printing by controlling the amount of material, put blocks in downloaded designs, and not allow the sale of better quality materials that may be abused.

    If such limitations don't already exist!

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Won't be long until they regulate 3D printing by controlling the amount of material, put blocks in downloaded designs, and not allow the sale of better quality materials that may be abused.

    If such limitations don't already exist!

    They do! DEFCAD and others are blocked from allowing non-US ISP to download their files legally.Not enough of a computer expert to know can VPNs etc circumvent this...But the designer of the FGC 9, John Stark was living in Germany where he R&D the design,built and tested it and distributed the files.So that genie is out of the bottle already.

    Still,we are a long way from popping a design into a 3D printer and 10 mins later a completely functioning gun has come out along with ammo.By the time we are at that stage, I reckon electromagnetic rail guns or the like will be the thing and these 3D-printed "FIRE"arms will be looked on as something as quaint as an arquebus.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Yeah, a VPN bypasses geolocking pretty easily. But I think with DefCad requires ID to be verified (like many platforms). That said, there many other sites to download and share 3D models. I doubt it’s hard find the files. I mean, they tried to stop downloading of music.

    I agree it’s years aware from all printed, polymer, fully functional (ie not a zip gun) firearm from being printed. But as I said above, I don’t think that’s the actual application for printing firearms. Easier, and more functional to print only the receiver/controlled parts if you can purchase the rest (locations will vary).



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    One thing I can see happening tho.Is a renaissance of air guns looking at some designs coming out from Go gun.com and others .There are some air rifle and pistol designs that are pushing.22 pellets into rimfire velocities when unrestricted in power,and others are throwing 9mm slugs with velocities capable of taking down deer at short ranges or with arrows and broadheads. Esp fun is the fact in many countries where airguns are unrestricted and off-ticket items, except maybe regulated by power these will fall below the radar. Also with the advent of 3D printing and carbon fibre wrapping these guns are almost perfect for 3D printing As their barrels also don't need to hold and contain vast powder pressure at the breech,almost any bog standard hobby store tubing in mild steel will work too. So methinks that is one field to keep an eye on in the future too

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭J.R.


    A very interesting program on BBC last night where the police succeeded in getting a conviction for a person who made guns on a 3-D printer





  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    This can become an extremely long topic, and can go into a massive amount of sub-tangents. There are two major subsections: Current situation, and future developments. I'm going to start with the US position, as one of the largest sources of firearms and firearms technology, and then we can move to Europe. 3D printing below refers, unless otherwise specified, to plastic/polymer, not metal printing.

    The single biggest reason that 3D printed firearms aren't a major issue to date is the cheap and easy availability of factory produced firearms. Only enthusiasts, the truly dedicated, or those who want a challenge have really gone into it. When you can buy a completed AR-15 for $800 or less, why go through the hassle of building your own, especially if you need to buy a printer or CNC machine or whatever to do it? A similar argument happens for criminal use: There are plenty enough pistols on the black market in the US that there isn't great need for 'home-built' firearms.

    For those that do want to home-build anyway, CNC machines do a better job than 3D printers. Though the CNC forums often have sub-threads for those who wish to build their own firearms, that's usually for people who know what the heck they're doing. For people who don't know what they're doing, there are plug-and-play options like the Ghostgunner. $500 and it comes with everything you need, to include the software, to machine your own receivers. In the US, the pressure-bearing components are usually considered replaceable parts, the 'gun' itself is legally the receiver, so if you have your hands on a receiver, you can build everything else. It doesn't require a gun-smith. This is how I received my FAL… erm… sorry. Those were illegal when I bought it, so it's actually an SA-58. Only the big piece at the bottom left is the 'gun' in the US, purchased from a firearms dealer. I got the rest US mail and put it together without a manual.

    The receivers themselves are sold as "80% finished". Basically, there is a point at which a lump of metal becomes a firearms component. Under current US regulation, that's about 80% of the way there. The purpose-made CNC machines do the other 20%. Should the law change to 60%, I'm sure it won't take much tweaking for the CNC machine to do 40%, but eventually you get to the point where you need to start considering if you need to consider a rectangular brick of steel as a firearms part. A couple years ago, a criminal 'factory' of such weapons was discovered in California. However, as mentioned, such things are rare enough as most criminals tend to just buy black market pistols if not lawfully purchased pistols.

    The same situation applies to 3D printed firearms. In the US, there is little need to worry about 3D printing barrels or chambers because they are freely available. You only need to print the receiver. 3D printed receivers have been a reliable thing now for a few years, I'll get back to developments on the pressure-bearing side in a moment. What is different, however, about a 3D printer vs a CNC 'easy-use' system like Ghostgunner is that the CNC machine is pretty much a single-purpose component. You're not going to buy a Ghostgunner unless you have the specific intent of manufacturing a firearm. In jurisdictions with somewhat tighter rules, you can simply prohibit the sale of the thing. 3D printers, however, are becoming more common for all sorts of legitimate purposes and thus are much harder to regulate. (That said, some US politicians have started submitting legislation to require background checks to buy 3D printers).

    OK, metal bits. For similar reasons to the firearms as a whole, metal bits in 3D printed weapons are often a matter of convenience. For example, magazine springs. It is theoretically possible to make a 3D printed plastic spring for a magazine. It's been done for the sake of the demonstration. However, it's not very space efficient. It's a lot easier to get a steel rod of the correct quality, available easily for all sorts of legitimate purposes, and simply bend that to shape. Better yet, just buy the magazine. There's a few hundred million of the things in the US, it's not a major blocker.

    The other obvious fun one is the barrel. As you can imagine, there are small differences in the pressure and heat resistance requirements of a semi-auto .22 and a .50 cal Browning HMG. 3D printed barrels capable of taking a .22 are currently a thing. They are not the most accurate things in the world (after a few rounds), but they work. Current commonly available designs like the Tubee 22 are intended to use a barrel liner for the rifling and wear control, but the chamber pressure is all 3D print-contained. But for the sake of it, four years ago the life of a 100% 3d printed .22 rifle barrel was demonstrated as about 20 rounds before the rifling wore away, and 65 rounds before the barrel failed. I'm not sure where we stand now, but I suspect it's gotten better. You also wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the first 20 or 30 rounds even four years ago, and I don't think there are exceptions in firearms laws in most places for "sure, the thing only lasts a couple of magazines". But, again, since you can buy a .22 semi-auto from the factory for $200, this remains purely a technical experiment for now and a bit of a novelty.

    So, generally speaking, there is no large-scale motivation in the US to make home-made rifles a thing, and the laws which permit it are made a bit redundant in jurisdictions like Ireland which restricts firearms components other than the receiver. Current 3D printed firearms which may show up (like the FGC-9 which popped up in the North a year or two ago) are either going to be extremely short-service life (and thus be treated as partially disposable) or of dubious effectiveness because of non-quality barrels and liners. Still, how much are you going to risk standing in front of an FGC-9 and letting them shoot it at you?

    That's the 'today' position. The problem is the 'tomorrow' position. The 1911 sintered metal pistol referenced above was built using a machine which, when I looked it up, cost something akin to $2.5 million dollars at the time (over a decade ago), and was installed at a specialty manufacturing facility. I looked up a similar machine a year ago, and the cost was still six figures. Not the sort of thing Joe Soap is going to have in his hobby room, but the trend is obvious. Remember when laser printers were so expensive only corporations could buy them? Or when computers were only found in universities and defense departments? Even polymer 3d printers have gone over a decade from being multi-thousand-dollar major investments to something a typical hobbyist who wants to do some modelling or whatever can get and not take much room in his man-cave, all whilst increasing in quality of product. If someone wants to lay bets that there will not be a consumer-grade 3d metal printer on the market ten years from now, I'll put a tenner down.

    Thus realistically the point of restriction in a place like Ireland is going to be, I submit, the ammunition. You can't 3d print propellant. I've never looked into how easy it is to make with commercial materials, but that's another matter.

    I also ran into a chap at a range event (at Demolition ranch) who had created an electrically fired (thus eliminating even the need to buy primer caps), fully 3D printed firearm. Even the ammunition was 3D printed. The powder is still required, though. He had the scars on his hand from a chain detonation that I sure as hell wasn't going to shoot the thing (even though others were willing), but it does go to show that amateur tinkering has interesting prospects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 284 ✭✭drury..




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Great post there Manic on the topic.

    However on two points the ammo and the barrel making. There is now a process called Electrochemical rifling that allows you to make a gun barrel with rifling out of round stock with about 100 dollars worth of DIYhobby shop equipment. Now,whether these shoot sub-MOA groups at 200 meters is questionable, but if we are talking STEN gun type range and accuracy is good enough. So even that is now becoming a rapidly academic problem.

    The ammo powder, so long as match heads, and potassium chlorate are available, black power is a thing.As proven by the shooter in Erfurt, Germany about 6 years ago.When he tried to shoot up a synagogue with a bunch of improvised firearms based on slam-fire shotguns and a PA Luty-design-based SMG. He was using homebrew BP in reloaded cartridge cases.

    Personally,I think we will see a quantum leap in Air guns and pistols 3D printed or not. Simply because they lend themselves to 3D printing and modern carbon fibre technology. They are not classified as firearms and licensed in many countries, and don't have to deal with massive breach and barrel containment pressures,Some new designs are hitting with 38 special equivalents in both slug and power and are capable of taking big game, and some pistols are also in the 22LR category with 18 shot capability.The ammo is the easiest,as all you need si a heat source,scrap lead and a mold to cast hundreds of airgun slugs.Thus wiping out another problem.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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