UK to ban disposal vapes and buying tobacco

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121697975#Comment_121697975

It's not self regulated, the vaping industry in Ireland is very heavily regulated. There are extremely strict rules put in place by the Tobacco Product Directive of 2017 in all EU countries. It is no longer legal to sell to under 18s, although this law was only brought in very recently. Organisations such as the IVVA (Irish Vape Vendors Association) had been begging the government for literal years to bring in laws around the sales of vapes to under 18s, and the government dragged their heels on it and still have very little understanding of the industry and they demonstrate an unwillingness to learn. Prior to this law being introduced, yes the sales to under 18s were technically self regulated, however any reputable vape shop would not knowingly sell to anyone under 18. Of course there were shops that would, and there still will be even with the new laws, just like some shops have no problem selling cigarettes and alcohol to people under 18.

I completely agree with you on your last point. I work in a vape shop and I've had people come in looking for vapes and when I ask how much they normally smoke so I can match them up with a liquid with an appropriate nicotine level some of them tell me they never smoked. Like??? Make it make sense. This is a smoking cessation tool, it shouldn't be something for people to take up if they weren't smokers previously. When this happens I try to dissuade them from buying a vape, but at the end of the day it's their own decision.

(This next part isn't aimed at you specifically, just a general rant)

I've worked in a vape shop for the past 6 years and it's infuriating that so many people read false information online or read a headline of an article but not the article itself and take it all as gospel. The term "popcorn lung" has become the bane of my existence while working in this industry because to this day people still go around saying "oh you'll get popcorn lung from the vape" when it's not true at all. Popcorn lung is caused by diacetyl, which is an ingredient that has been banned in the EU for several years and there has never been a single case on the planet of popcorn lung being attributed to vaping.

igCorcaigh

Every generation needs it's moral panic I suppose.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700383#Comment_121700383

Do you never lose sleep over the thought that you are helping them to take the first step to addiction?

I find it hard to understand how someone would do your job and have no qualms about it.

I also class cigarette vendors as drug dealers incidentally, basically because that's what they are.

How on earth does taking nicotine into the body help you out of a nicotine addiction?

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700383#Comment_121700383

Weren't there a number of vaping-related 'Popcorn Lung' in the US though. People were vaping a cannabis-based liquid, which contained a causative agent? Not sure if it was Diacetyl or some other chemical.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700383#Comment_121700383

I completely agree with you on your last point. I work in a vape shop and I've had people come in looking for vapes and when I ask how much they normally smoke so I can match them up with a liquid with an appropriate nicotine level some of them tell me they never smoked. Like??? Make it make sense. This is a smoking cessation tool, it shouldn't be something for people to take up if they weren't smokers previously. When this happens I try to dissuade them from buying a vape, but at the end of the day it's their own decision.

I don't get this tbh. You could say the exact some thing to someone who asked for a box of cigs and when asked what brand they want they don't know because they never smoked before so you say well why the hell even buy a box if you don't smoke. Every smoker bought their first box of cigarettes some time.

Vapeing is hardly 'meant to be' a smoking cessation tool when you literally smoke them. It's an alternaive and you can use it for whatever reason you want, either as a substitue for cigs or as a means to give up nicotine altogether more gradually. I doubt there's any pleasure to be had from nicotine patches, they are what's meant to be a smoking cessation tool.

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701893#Comment_121701893

No, I don't. The cases where people come in who have never smoked are a very tiny percentage of my customer base as a whole. Over the six years I've worked there I could count on one hand how many of them have actually said they never smoked before. Like I said, at the end of the day they are adults so it's their choice, but I do try to dissuade them from getting one if they aren't already smokers.

The way it works as a cessation tool is that the bottles of liquid come in all different nicotine levels. They even come in zero nicotine for people are ready to quit nicotine but not quite ready to give up the habit/routine of vaping. The idea is that, over time, you will work your way down the nicotine levels until you reach a point where you're ready to quit. I have plenty of customers that I never see any more because they worked their way down and eventually quit. And this isn't me just guessing, some have literally come in and told me that they have given up completely and thanked me for my help. There are some people who will never quit, I absolutely do not dispute that at all, but for a lot of people this is the path of least resistance for quitting nicotine altogether.

If you want my own personal (short) story - I started smoking in late 2007 and quit seven years ago. I switched to vaping and after about a month I noticed an enormous improvement in my lung capacity. I used to get winded just climbing the stairs at home, although that was due to a combination of the smoking and being overweight. After that month of no cigarettes I was never winded again going up the stairs. I would always have a cigarette right before bed and I'd be able to feel my heart beating pretty hard for the next half an hour or so. I honestly can't even remember the last time I felt that happen, aside from if I'd been doing exercise.

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701904#Comment_121701904

No. I was actually going to mention that in my earlier post but my post was already long enough and I didn't want to make it even longer. Basically what actually happened in the US is that counterfeit/black market THC vape cartridges were widely distributed. They had Vitamin E acetate added into them, which normally is fine for humans to use if it's in a multivitamin or an ingredient of moisturiser etc. However, when it gets vaporised it becomes toxic to humans. So that's what actually happened. The problem here is that this wasn't discovered to be the cause until several months after people started becoming hospitalised. The media latched on to the stories and basically just ran "vaping causes deaths in the US" when the true fact of the matter was it had absolutely nothing to do with the regular vape industry, it was counterfeited THC vapes. But of course by the time this all came to light the media had moved on/didn't want to admit their mistakes.

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702067#Comment_121702067

It's true, every smoker did buy their first box of cigarettes at some point. I would argue though that most smokers likely started off by getting cigarettes off friends and whatnot before progressing to buying their own.

Look, I don't agree with people starting vaping recreationally when they weren't smokers in the first place, but it's not my place to tell people what they can or can't do. If it was then you could apply that argument to everything that's unhealthy. Oh you've never had alcohol before? Ok I won't serve you in my pub. Oh you've never had coffee, a stimulant, before? No latte for you.

As for the smoking cessation, I have noted that in my reply to Slightly Kwackers two posts above this, so there's no point in me writing it out again.

As a general statement - if anyone else has any questions or wants me to dispel any myths about the vaping industry as a whole I'm more than happy to have a conversation about it. I don't know EVERYTHING about it, but I've learned a lot over the past six years.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702683#Comment_121702683

I know how reducing nicotine levels is designed to take a person out of the addiction and were it to be a genuine route away for a sizeable majority, you would be out of a job in a year or two.

For most it does not work as they could freely "Silk Cut" their ciggies with the aid of a simple pin which has exactly the same effect and does not even need a deliberate purchase of lower strength fixes.

If you are happy, then fine, but I do not think your line of work is one I would consider any kind of asset to the punter or community, I feel no different as far as betting shops go either.

I would wish you well, but frankly I have more concern for you customers who are entering into a bond that will keep them chained for life if they don't want to experience the pain of quitting.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703154#Comment_121703154

Nicotine replacement worked for me anyhow

Problem is it takes forever to get off the replacement

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703830#Comment_121703830

Breaking the addiction is simple and painful with nicotine in my experience, just remove it. Limiting the input and using different delivery means just draws out the process.

I found stopping and plenty of mints to act as a dummy got me off.

After two weeks it gets better, three months I was on the home stretch and feeling confident. After three years I knew I would never smoke again and indeed have no desire to. Without the chemical dependency I see cigarettes for the nasty, dirty smelly things they are, a view that was hidden to me by my addiction.

Addiction sure changes you, I recall the time I went from the house, walked a mile in the most foul weather to put my two bob in a cigarette machine, only to have it swallowed with no fix forthcoming.

Back home then to unpick the butts and wrap them in toilet paper.

I detest the things and needless to say have a low opinion of dealers.

Booze, gambling and drugs are no different, the only slight redeeming factor being that lots of people owe their lives to booze. Their parents are so ugly, they would never have got together without the aid of a serious boozing session :-)

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704069#Comment_121704069

Different ways I guess

I know the gum worked for me cold turkey didn't

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704082#Comment_121704082

I had a few failures too!

The two week abstinance reward of a one off cigarette saw my return to the things a few times.

Each to his own, the main thing is you are free!

It's a good feeling is it not?

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704152#Comment_121704152

It takes years to get back to feeling normal with them

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704159#Comment_121704159

I will never, ever forget actually tasting beer after a few months.

I was advised to and deliberately stopped drinking when quitting ciggies. Apparently there is a desire to swap one addiction with another and anyway the end of anti smoking intentions comes easily after the third or fourth pint in the company of One's friends all puffing away and dishing out the fags generously.

I went for a mediocre keg beer while waiting for the bus in the UK. "Anselles bitter" if you ever had the pleasure of the dishwater, a fizzy bland keg offering which was one of the reasons for the real ale movement there.

The taste!, the hops and malt were unbelievable. That was the single benefit that I clearly recall, I could taste things.

It does not last though as the improved appreciation becomes the "norm", but it was a shock realising that things could taste so good.

The thing about the fags I didn't know that's obvious with hindsight is that the smoking risks never depart. They are simply on hold at the point when you stopped smoking.

I had a terrible lifestyle and based my health planning on being sensible and cutting out excess as well as acting like a monk as I approached my dotage.

Ignorance is bliss :-(

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703154#Comment_121703154

That's fine, you're absolutely entitled to your own opinion and feelings on the subject matter. I don't agree with them, but we are all free to form our own judgements about everything in the world. The way I see it is that people are doing less harm than if they stayed on cigarettes. Nobody is claiming that vaping is healthy and does no harm at all, but all the current evidence points to it being far less harmful than smoking cigarettes or any form of tobacco. We will likely not know the true extent for a few decades though, much like with cigarettes and how they were touted as being good for you way back when.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704832#Comment_121704832

Your very own words condemn your position.

Rule 1 do no harm. Less harm is a cop out.

My judgements may, or may not be more valid than yours because I am not gaining financial reward for justifying my position.

Humans don't need nicotine for survival, so unlike a dodgy food product there is simply no acceptable risk.

That is my position and I doubt you have anything in your armoury of excuses to affect it.

Addiction is a horrible freedom removing problem, it really is that simple.

I cannot say anything about your products from practical experience, the only different carrier for my fix was snuff when I tried to stop smoking, but failure was guaranteed, because the very thing I was taking to cure my addiction was the addictive substance.

Every new thing seems to be touted as good, Radium, Uranium, electric shocks were all sold to the public as beneficial at some point. The fact is that most "new" products were not recognised as the human body as threats and the results did become visible after a delay.

Humans might derive some benefits from alcohol if they keep at it for a few thousand generations, but why go for a product with zero benefits. Nicotine isn't even a social lubricant that partners alcohol any more as it's banned in public enclosed areas.

I don't "vape" now and never did. I know and understand the effects they have on me if I don't use them and find that risk acceptable, any increase in a zero risk from them is simply not acceptable, I have nothing to gain and all to lose.

circadian

Vapes are damaging to health, some emerging evidence for this;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10720266/

https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj-2021-065997.long

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8129966/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36780924/

Nicotine is damaging to health, as we all know;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

Those making tobacco and vape products will always move quicker than legislation as there is massive amounts of money to be made. Smoking was good for you, remember?

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121705353#Comment_121705353

Some mistake surely :-)

I wonder if the good lady had the pleasure of an oncology ward :-(

Jafin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121705198#Comment_121705198

Ok? I have not tried to change your opinion in any of my posts, but it sounds like you think I am trying to do that when you say things like my "armoury of excuses." If it came across that I was trying to change your opinion then I apologise, as that was not my intent. I have just given my opinions and facts based on my time working in the industry. You have your stance on vaping and I have mine, and that's completely fine. I'm not trying to change what you think of it. You have successfully quit nicotine on your own and I think that's fantastic. Some people can do that, some people can't. Everyone has a different level of willpower and tolerance for withdrawal, I don't think anyone should be judged for that.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706049#Comment_121706049

Dont misunderstand, I don't think you are trying to change my opinion at all. I am of the opinion that you are using your armoury of excuses to justify the unjustifiable and sell your product which is a totally different ball game.

Sure, if you want me to understand the reasons to sell the things fine, but I doubt it matters to you whether you change my opinion beyond the position that we all have in wanting what we do to be worthwhile.

It seems to me that you simply supply things to others that may be harming them physically and are addictive and get money in return. That's it.

Change my mind if you want to, but I doubt you have the tool in your armoury.

Incidentally I may be wrong on vapes as a means of giving up. If they are what's needed for some and they do not replace ciggies, then great! Frankly I dont see how continuing with the cause of the addiction can work better than "cold turkey".

I haven't looked for any research, but it is not a topic that affects me outside my wish to see people free of addiction.

So don't worry about my opinion, or if you do, take up selling models or artisan bread or something :-)

conorhal

Disposable vapes in every corner shop has them in the hands of every kid around me in D8. I see a shocking amount of them littering the streets.

The sensible thing to do regards nicotine products, as aids to give up smoking, would have been to make them available only through pharmacies prescription free, just like Nicorette gum. Then you would have some control over a controlled substance, and it would have been a nice little earner for pharmacies that seem to get by these days selling more beauty products than drugs. Having them in every spar and corner shop has been a disaster, there there’s no control over who they are sold to. Which was entirely predictable, but of course our asleep at the wheel government never seems to wake up until something is already obvious (and easilly preventable) car crash.

The disposables should be banned on environmental grounds alone.

As for banning tobacco altogether... good luck with that! Nicotine, as addictive substances go is as addictive as heroin. I’d say the criminal gangs will be delighted with this proposal, many of them have already piled into smuggling cigs because it's just as, if not more profitable for them as peddling class A drugs and comes with far less risk to them of lengthy prison sentences.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706675#Comment_121706675

I don't know if anything is done in schools, but we never had warnings in the sixties about nicotine or alcohol. There were no other drugs, we were not so advanced then.

I wonder if anything has changed these days?

Still, you are not going to explain addiction to a schoolchild with no knowledge and a lifetime of "invulnerability".

I wonder how the Brit's managed to justify turning the Chinese into heroin addicts with Indian produce?

munchkin_utd

>The disposables should be banned on environmental grounds alone.

+1

they contain a battery and the little heater element so even if there wasnt a litter problem theres a good case for recycling them, but if users are being antisocial by disposing of them on the streets then its an even more compelling case to enforce recycling (make it a tenner deposit and theyd wise up quickly) or just ban disposables and let the real smokers with refillable reusable devices carry on.

Maybe a alternative solution would be to make them over 21s to take the sale of them out of school age kids, but whether thatd solve the litter issue is another question.