Amatuerism v Professionalism. Small budgets v Big budgets. Has the horse bolted?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121643553#Comment_121643553

People being able to say "New Zealand love rugby" and New Zealand rugby being a huge brand are very very different.

And I bet "the world" you speak of is a limited part of the actual world.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121643553#Comment_121643553

You literally quoted the GAA's income and said they have the money to go professional:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121642709#Comment_121642709

You also never answered why you're making inaccurate comparisons between the GAA and New Zealand rugby. Where's the income for all the Super Rugby clubs in NZ? They'd be on a similar scale to the Irish Rugby provinces, who earn an average of €20 Million each. Then New Zealand has 14 National Provincial Championship teams, which at a glance have annual incomes ranging from €5 to €9 Million each, with the Heartland Championship teams earning less but still in the millions.

Treble double

Gaelic Football and Hurling are sports played solely on a small island on the west of Europe. Gaeliec Football is played throughout the island, hurling is confined to a rich agricultural area called the Golden Vale with tiny outposts in other areas of the country, comparing this with international sports regarding the viability of proffesionalism is laughable.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121647294#Comment_121647294

........but, but, but The Dallas Cowboys......

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121647294#Comment_121647294

I keep saying that what I’m saying is where the GAA should be aiming for 20 - 30 year’s ahead. Surely nobody want’s the way it is now to continue as it is.

And All sports were amateur once.

Hurling is what it is, and being only played by such few counties compared to football there’s plenty of room for improvement.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121647927#Comment_121647927

I'm grand with the way it is now.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121647927#Comment_121647927

Yes many sports were amateur and are now pro but most sports are international and can sustain professionalism. It's not likely gaa could and certainly not at a decent wage for players to make it viable for them to quit their jobs etc

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121649704#Comment_121649704

Plenty of LOI players have jobs. Well over half I'd say.

In rugby young players on their first contract with a province will earn about €40K. Academy players earn circa €8-12K depending on their year. A player who is not an international but on a provincial squad a bit is probably on what? 65k?

thinkabouit

This thread is a perfect reflection on the country,

No forward thinking or vision

We can’t do that it’s too expensive

They can’t have that it’ll upset the lad’s down the road

I’m alright Jack so fuch the people of the future

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652962#Comment_121652962

But what exactly are we trying to fix ?

Football quality is apparently in poor shape these days depending on who you ask.

But going professional won't fix that, on the contrary it will probably make it worse as the stakes will be higher and losing will cost more, so teams will setup not to lose an awful lot more.

County teams are spending a lot of money these days, but going professional will result in even more spending.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653068#Comment_121653068

not trying to fix too much, more like enhancing or progressing what we already have. I just think in the future a few decades down the line where it’s all leading too?

Thing’s like better stadium’s and better infrastructure that goes with that, a genuine career choice for athletes to make a living, who wouldnt want those?

Somebody posted earlier the GAA have around 30 stadium’s over 10K capacity.

Would the money that goes into these places be better pooled into providing top facility’s

Mal-Adjusted

What exactly is the problem with the games that professionalism will solve? it isn't the bloated budgets of county boards, that's for sure. The army of backroom staff and physios won't be jettsoned. top stadiums? where's the money going to come from to do any of this? The LOI has been professional for decades. their stadia are crap, some are half condemned. And they have access to revenus streams that the GAA can only dream of. At the end of the day, there's really no need to attempt professionalism, there's way too many county teams and we're far too small a market to give it a go.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653701#Comment_121653701

The LOI has been professional for decades. their stadia are crap, some are half condemned. And they have access to revenus streams that the GAA can only dream of

They don't.

There are a lot of people in Ireland who would call themselves soccer fans.

But they don't spend any money on soccer in Ireland.

They spend it on premier league merch, tickets and Sky Sports subs.

They spend feck all on the LOI or national team.

I'd argue that theses soccer fans actually spend more money on their local and county GAA teams than they do on soccer in Ireland.

Mal-Adjusted

Well by revenue streams I meant money from European competitions and world cup money. I'm all too aware how poor the gates are.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653068#Comment_121653068

I dont agree with this. History tells us that, as pro sports are essentially a form of entertainment, they tend to get more entertaining with time - which means less defensive play.

Soccer has become a lot more skill based over the years - a lot of the brute force and defensive play of past eras is gone. Attacking players are the biggest stars.

When pro american football took off via the NFL it became a much more open and offensive game - in the early decades in particular, the owners worked hard on rule charges to make it more open and entertaining.

Rugby union has become faster and more skillful than its amateur days.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653701#Comment_121653701

Should we not be trying to keep enhancing & making the game better, keep the sport progressing?

If Irish rugby never went professional where would it be now?

Most would agree going pro has been a phenomenal success.

The only thing that can be blamed for LOI is their management & no planning for the future.

bucketybuck

Again, you have started from the view that professionalism is good and are trying to fit everything around that.

Its basically:

Go pro

?

Profit!

The GAA needs to identify its problems and then address them, not start with a solution and work backwards.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654480#Comment_121654480

Going pro has been a success for rugby, but club rugby took a beating as a result. Gone are the days of big crowds going to watch club games.

Professional rugby in Ireland is successful because:

1. There are only 4 teams, and the IRFU lucked out that they had 4 brands they could use that fans would immediately identify with. You just have to look at Wales to see the dangers of trying to create new entities and getting fans to buy in, it doesn't work.
2. Ireland test games generate enormous income that's used to run the provinces
3. Big TV deals thanks to European rugby and the British and French broadcasters

If you take out test rugby, and you take out European rugby, and you were left with the URC, pro rugby here simply wouldn't survive.

And the GAA doesn't have any of these things going for it. I don't see how it would possibly work. I don't think the money paid to players would be anywhere near sufficient enough to have them give up careers.

You would have to create new teams, or you'd have to pick a handful of counties and make them pro, but at that point they won't really be county teams any more since they'd have to pick players from other places. You would need to introduce a full 10 month calendar of fixtures for these pro teams to play, a handful of games for each over the summer isn't going to cut it. The players who play on these teams will probably never play for their club or county (if it's not a pro one) again.

The reality is that for GAA to go pro it's likely to mean introducing another tier above the current inter-county tier, and that will come with consequences, many of which I think people won't like or buy into. It'll be great for those lucky enough to be promoted into this tier but it'll just lead to resentment and disinterest for everyone else.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654863#Comment_121654863

Alot of reasons why URC is the way it is. Would you think the URC would be much better if games were more competitive?

Iv been to a good few down the year’s and nobody wants to see Munster Hammer Zebra or a B team from the Ospreys etc

If every team had to go more or less full strength would it improve? Plus too many games in it also and to many change’s lose people’s interest.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654863#Comment_121654863

Equally, you don't have to see the limits of going pro in the light of having to give up jobs, operate in millions of pounds, and european and world bodies (many of whom go through financial crisis after boom and bust followed by financial crisis by the way.) There are many sports that are pro or semi pro where players still have jobs or the sport itself is not part of an industry worth millions of dollars.

The journey of professionalism is often a juggle from crisis to boom from crisis to boom, no matter what the sport is or the size of the revenue.

With the GAA moving into streaming services and more and more people earning money from it, the prospect of paying players will raise its head again. There's absolutely no harm in having the conversation about what that might look like.

As for the last paragraph of your piece, that's every level of sport. There are always, ALWAYS, the haves and have nots. And there has never been a time in the GAA where some counties have so much more than others in terms of budget.

You say it might lead to resentment or disinterest for the rest who don't make it. But, it might lead to a determination to join the rest. Arguably, the best thing to ever happen to Connacht was when the IRFU tried to get rid of them. Woke them up.

You say, we could only pick a handful of teams to do it. Sure. But that's already the case. Only six county teams have won the hurling since 2000. Two teams, only once. Slightly better in football, maybe.

THE GAA is a cultural institution whose purpose is promote the language, the culture, and sports. That's why it's against professionalism. It's supposed to be above money. The question is being posed has that been lost? And what does the possible professional world look like for the GAA? I'm not advocating professionalism for the gaa but i see no harm in the discussion and see the discussion as inevitable. And it's certainly not new.

Talk The GAA can't do this or can't do that is nonsense to me. 100% it can do it. What that looks like is another thing, especially when things come under the tax radar. Because if as some posters suggest 2,500 for some player's expenses... if the GAA went professional, they'd be on a hell of a lot less I'd imagine. There's lots you can do under the banner of 'amateurism' that flies under the radar - from college fees to funding to cars to yada to yada.

To be absolutely cut throat about it, like a professional business person, you'd take the Munster championship and run with that, and tell other teams you have to meet a criteria of 18,000 attendance for matches and certain amount of jersey sales and sponsorship before you could join the championship and you build from there. It's the only profitable championship in town. And I certainly wouldn't see it as a situation where players would be full time and have no jobs. It would certainly be a nominal fee for appearances. I don't understand why people equate giving up their jobs with professionalism. It's rarely like that. Look at UFC fighters or pro boxers, most have jobs until they sell places out (which for most is never). I really doubt academy players in irish rugby don't have jobs. The pay for irish women's rugby is particularly bad. The Irish soccer team has drawn or been beaten in a few games by teams with carpenters and policemen in them...

But I don't understand why people mention world cups or european soccer, it's just not a model for starting a professional or semi pro sport.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655382#Comment_121655382

You suggest that they are on 2500 for expenses, but if they went semi-pro they'd be on a lot less. If that was the case, why would any player want to go semi-pro? Higher demands for less money, it doesn't sound like it'd be popular.

Of course, you can pay players appearance fees and there is an argument to be made that maybe the lads that generate the big incomes for the association should get at least a small piece of the pie. I think that's a different discussion to a more fundamental shift to professionalism though.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654581#Comment_121654581

You have to start from where you want to be & work back from there. Otherwise you end up going down the wrong road.

When you build a house you start with a clear vision of what you want & then work from there.

All the knowledge is there of what to do & what not to do to be successful.

What are the big problem’s do you think yourself at the moment in the Gaa?

Mal-Adjusted

That's one way of looking at it. Tell me, what do you see as the primary problems within the GAA at the moment?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655506#Comment_121655506

I didn’t suggest that. A poster on Here said that he lived with a few guys who were getting that in expenses out West. Now, not all dressings rooms are ran the same and there are always a few lads getting a bit more from here and there - that includes amateur and professional dressing rooms. While one player might want to go semi pro for such and such a reason, another might not. any grade of professionalism won’t change that kind of dressing room politics

That depends on your understanding of professionalism. The vast majority of experience in professional circuits from tennis to golf to soccer to hockey to polo to darts to snooker to boxing to bowling and on and on is very different from the top 10 or top 100 to the top 1000. And very different from sport to sport…

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655564#Comment_121655564

You don't start with a clear vision of what you want, you start with a why, and then identify the what.

"I need somewhere to live. I need a house. Here is the house I want."

You are drawing up plans for a new house but nobody knows yet why you need it. Or why your plans are for a 5 bed mansion when you don't have any kids.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635055#Comment_121635055

Sounds similar to AFL. And the overwhelming majority of their players and teams are based in Melbourne, with 2 in Sydney and a smattering around the country.

16 teams, 15 league matches culminating in top 8 and bottom 8 going into 2 championship play offs. Would be a lot more interesting than the current AI championship.

dxhound2005

Ours is more interesting. We have teams from London and New York.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656182#Comment_121656182

Yes, but I think the reason that most AFL teams are based round Melbourne is down to the fact that that's where the sport is strong and has tradition. Rugby League would be king in Sydney. Same in Brisbane, while Perth would be Aussie Rules. Even with a confined area of following to start with the sport has grown and flourished. GAA is more widely followed here.

Yes, I think it would a far more balanced and interesting competition which would only benefit the sport. 15 games gives teams room to breath and experiment with tactics, formations etc. As our competition stands in both league and championship, two losses and you're either done or in trouble. It doesn't promote any innovation. Its like asking a guy to invent something while you're pointing a gun at him. Our IC competitions and their structure are the biggest problem in the GAA at the moment.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656143#Comment_121656143

You seem happy enough as is, so no point getting into it with you.