Amatuerism v Professionalism. Small budgets v Big budgets. Has the horse bolted?

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621233#Comment_121621233

Glass half empty?

Going pro obviously isn’t going to happen anytime soon. What I’m saying is probably what awaits 10- 20 year’s time.

And the wage bill won’t be a problem.

If you had 20 full time pro contracted player’s and say a starting figure of 50k per year works out at €1 million in wages. Coaches & staff & operation’s etc couple more million. Other squad player’s can be on semi pro or Academy contracts?

Your right though that the biggest problem would be getting teams & county’s on board and deciding who gets a team.

personally I think a good way to decide that would be citys & high population.

The GAA could develop their own tv programming or app that can be downloaded on phone or smart tv and accesed anywhere in the world.

There’s huge Irish Gaa community’s in London, America, Australia & Middle East etc that I’m sure wouldn’t have a problem paying a subscription fee to watch their teams.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622586#Comment_121622586

That’s because there’re absolutely shocking to watch & completely overpriced for ticket’s.

Iv been to An NFL game & it’s shite!

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620255#Comment_121620255

Just not realistic.

Even season ticket holders at the likes of Man Utd or Real Madrid would be paying less than E60 per game. And that is to support their club.

For the GAA, intercounty matches are on top of supporting the clubs. People just don't have the time/money/interest to go to intercounty games every week.

kksaints

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622659#Comment_121622659

Ha! Very good! I should have specified the Allianz NFL and Allianz NHL.

On the other hand I think there's a lot of assumptions you've made that would probably not hold if tested particularly with regards to attendances. Don't forget that a lot of GAA attendance figures are for double headers. They wouldn't work in a professional league.

thinkabouit

Ok so more of the same & the slow death of the sport is what people want.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622586#Comment_121622586

As semi pro, the LOI is the better comparison. Top teams in that are lucky to get 6,000 a week.

Munster GAA will shortly confirm record gate receipts in excess of €5 million for their senior hurling championship in 2023.

After a record-breaking attendance total of close to 300,000 last season, ticket revenue will be greater than the 2022 figure of €4,736,267, which was over €500,000 greater the previous normal season total of €4.206m in 2019. The inaugural Munster SHC round robin season in ’18 drew gate receipts of €4.05m.

The previous best collated attendance total for the 11-game Munster SHC was in 2019 when just over 280,000 watched the 10 round games and provincial final.

theres a hunger for it. I think the home and away attendance would hold high numbers for sure.

kksaints

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623025#Comment_121623025

I won't disagree that the Munster hurling attendances are great but it's only four matches per team bar they reach the final and If each team had to play treble the amount of matches with more travelling, less of an occasion around each match and more dead rubber matches would it hold? I'd question it tbh at the current GAA ticket prices.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623370#Comment_121623370

Where do you see the Gaa in 20, 30 or even 50 year’s ? What will it look like?

As a tipp supporter Id have no problem going to an away day game at Wexford, Galway, Kilkenny etc hell even up to Belfast off there was a team based there.

Tombo2001

Not wishing to be smart about it - but professionalism is one thing only, its players getting paid to play.

A team may have a €5mn per annum budget and not be professional.

So really the debate for me is small budgets vs big budgets. The players arent on contracts; end of. They may get things like mileage, sponsored cars and so on. But they are not professional. Simply arent.

As regards the small budget vs big budget debate - the question then is; if you allocate money to one place, then where is that being taken away from.

I think this is more of an issue at club level. If the budget to run a senior club football or hurling team lets say is €50'000 or whatever. And the under 12s are playing with busted ripped up footballs, cant get a set of cones. That sort of thing will piss people off.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623600#Comment_121623600

Agree fully, nearly every club within a 15 minute drive of me has floodlights, an astro pitch and a roofed stand. Some have gyms.

Yet the clubs are barely able to field an intermediate or junior team most weeks.

Such a waste of resources in the bigger scheme of thing’s.

Ireland doesn’t do joined up long term thinking, it’s every dog for themselves unfortunately.

kksaints

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623556#Comment_121623556

In the next 20 years or so I'm not sure if there will be much change in the hurling structures. Maybe Kerry in Munster to even out the team numbers and the removal of the Joe Mcdonagh teams in the Liam McCarthy cup but not much else. I think people are happy enough with the hurling structures atm.

Football is a different matter. I think a third tier will be introduced, the provincial championships will be moved to where the league is and a league style championship will be introduced for the three tiers.

Off pitch the horse has bolted regarding backroom teams and management so I can't see that changing unless a county board goes insolvent. A type of semi-professionalism with a split between the county board contributing and a hefty increase in Government grants could be introduced albeit unlikely. Stadium redevelopment across all Irish sports will pick up pace and the move towards municipal grounds at club level for all sports will start to increase as there will be a realisation that the current system is poor value for money as more clubs look into multi-pitch grounds.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623556#Comment_121623556

The attendances are growing - stadia will grow bigger on the back of it, in Clare and Waterford eventually. People can’t get enough of the games down here. Munster Hurling Championship gate receipts jumped by 18% to €5.4m.

There's a maintenance plan set to be launched in a while that will pump 4 million into Semple until 2028. And a much bigger plan in the works after that to make it more modern. And for all the other stadia not recently updated in terms of capacity, particularly, in Clare and Waterford.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621350#Comment_121621350

It's hard to find a comparable sport to GAA but looking at Denmark and Scotland who are the best comparisons to Ireland in terms of population and wealth their soccer leagues get average attendances of 10k and 16k respectively.

GAA get massive attendances for only a few games per team a season. Having a 36 game league like LOI will not be 30k a game like the All Ireland is.

The All Ireland is like Wimbledon, 6 Nations or the Tour de France. It exists outside the reality of its own sport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621233#Comment_121621233

Some people are still under the illusion that hurling has some untapped global audience. Others think we could sustain a 32 county pro football championship alongside a pro hurling one.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624339#Comment_121624339

Munster hurling has been a great success, adding more games & the cut throat nature of it has been ruthless. It shows what can be done with a change of system & thinking.

I think stadiums are already big enough to cope with demand, but definitely modernisation & roofed would set team’s up for the future.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624026#Comment_121624026

Well if Limerick continue on like they are in the hurling or Dublin continue like they have football itll change because people & teams & player’s will lose complete interest.

Why would i bother sending my son’s to Gaa clubs? Far better idea getting them involved in Soccer or rugby because they might be able to make it to the top or a living room it.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624358#Comment_121624358

There’s no point in comparing to them. League of Ireland is the only semi professional model in this country that could serve as aspirational. League of Ireland doesn’t have the history or success of those leagues. some big clubs in league of Ireland have a capacity as low as 4,000 and are not meeting that most weeks.

A minimum wage of €22,360 for full-time players, which amounts to €430 a week, are now in place. That took a very long time to build. There is also a guarantee of 48-week contracts, which allows part-time players to start on €6,760 or €130 a week. I’d say there’s very few players in LOI on over a grand. I think Shamrock Rovers can afford maybe two or three players on over a grand.

there’s way more eyes on GAA, on seats and on tv. But the most amateur thing about the GAA is the experience it offers at the ground and around the match on the day. There’s so much that could be improved on and a lot more money generated.

The GAA wants to stay amateur and that’s its biggest obstacle to professionalism. That’s fair enough. I’ve no skin in it whether it goes semi pro or not. But to say it couldn’t go semi pro is arbitrary. It could. What that would look like is another thing. Bringing any business to life or keeping it going is a struggle. Why people mention NFL or leagues from afar is not realistic or applicable. As far as I’m concerned, If the LOI can run as semi pro anyone can do it, because the amount of chancers and spoofers behind it and on the take for decades is off the charts.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624974#Comment_121624974

seriously - have you been to any league of Ireland games? Its fairly basic. The GAA grounds are streets ahead, apart from maybe Tallaght Stadium. Dundalk also is ok. The rest......

The biggest difference btn LOI and GAA however is team numbers. 10 teams in top league - of which UCD would be all students anyway, not paid. So then 9 teams with maybe 20 players at each. So thats circa 200 professional soccer players in Ireland; and they are on low incomes.

With the GAA - you have 32 counties X 2 codes X Men/Women x 25 on a panel = 3000 players.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624801#Comment_121624801

Thats what happening a lot more now. From young lads getting kicking coaching off NFL and AR coaches to lads playing rugby and soccer up until they don’t make it. It’s a lottery making it in these pro sports but the juice is worth the squeeze if you can make it and you can always fall back on GAA. If they can make a high level under age at these sports, it makes them better GAA players anyway, I think.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625072#Comment_121625072

I only mentioned two championships in one code each that could consider it

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625076#Comment_121625076

Ah here..... underage GAA is absolutely thriving at the moment. The clubs are jam packed.

No parent in their right mind decides which club to sends their kids to on the basis of 'where they can make it to the top'. They may make that decision age 16. They send kids according to where they will enjoy themselves.

The problem with this conversation is that it when the term 'GAA' is used- it really refers to 'Elite level GAA players'. The thing is, they represent 1% or less of registered GAA players.

Why should the tail wag the dog.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625110#Comment_121625110

Never said it wasn’t.

and yes I’m only talking about elite players. They usually have options.

you could only have a fraction of any sport as semi professional or pro

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625110#Comment_121625110

Some clubs are & some aren’t. Depends on location & population.

Well id say those 1% of elite top players have brought the game on leaps & bounds the past few year’s and probably account for a very high % of GAA revenue because people want to see them play.

Junior B player’s aren’t going to fill Semple stadium & Croke Park anymore!

would you not like to see a clear pathway from underage club to a Professional career? Or even having a piece of what other country’s have with there professional sports team’s.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625211#Comment_121625211

Would I like to see a clear pathway from underage club to a Professional career? In GAA? No not really. I just dont see how it works.

At the moment, elite players have a clear pathway to a highly organised and elite playing environment where they get the opportunity to play very exciting games in front of large crowds. That is a huge prize in itself.

Would I be telling a 19 year old - well you have the opportunity to play League of Ireland for €20k a year for the next 5 or 6 years at the end of which... what exactly; or you have the opportunity to go to college, get a degree, play intercounty - use that as a platform to build a career......I;m not sure why you think the professional route is better.

To your other point - hmm.... I dunno. Again, for me, the intercounty game for me is the cherry on the cake. Its not the cake. The cake is the circa 500,000 registered GAA club members; of whom probably half are kids.

For me - a far bigger issue that 'can elite players have a clear route to professionalism' is 'what is the path for weak players when they reach 17?'......teams that have gone from u6s all the way up to u16s....we all know the best player will be well looked after, county development squads, all that stuff. Loads of lads are worrying and thinking about the elite kid; this whole thread is dedicated to the elite kid.

What about the weakest player on the team, how do we keep that kids involved and playing once he gets to minor level. There are huge drop offs from u16 through to minor and then senior. How do we address that?

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624339#Comment_121624339

The last thing the GAA needs is bigger stadiums!

Smaller better quality stadia is the way to go.

For a country that has so much wind and rain it's a bit bizarre that 3/4's of most GAA grounds are uncovered. It doesn't make for a good match day experience.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627578#Comment_121627578

I think your only thinking of the now and not too distant future.

Im thinking of at least 20 - 30 years ahead & where the organisation should be aiming for.

And where as a player & fan id like to see it.

dxhound2005

It was mentioned on the radio in relation to the Cork story that Ireland has more stadiums per capita than any other country. So I decided to look it up.

From the Echo in November 2021:

"Ireland, due to our historic sporting/political rivalries, already has more stadiums per capita than any country in the world. Most are small by international standards but many regional grounds for the GAA have significant capacities. We have 38 arenas, across the sports, with capacities in excess of 10,000 spectators. Most of these are the GAA regional HQs but we also have the large stadiums of Croke Park, 83,000, Aviva, 52,000, Páirc Uí Chaoimh, 69,000, Semple, 46,000, and the Gaelic Grounds with 44,000 to 50,000."

I assume that is for the 26 counties. One outlier is Louth, currently with no stadium able to hold Championship games.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619237#Comment_121619237

No ones going to pay 60 quid a game. The premier league is cheaper than that. And you're not filling 30k seats either. With a 16 team league you'll end up with 15K per game at league games and 30-40k at a championship game. €20 is the most you'll knock out of a league game. 15 league games, 4 championship in a 6 month Season.

Hurling could spread further in a draft system as teams based further North could select guys from Tipp, KK and Cork plus some home grown. It would grow the game hugely just having a competitive team to follow.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621233#Comment_121621233

People follow success and the chance of being successful. That's not attainable in the current model. There are the haves and have nots. Professionalism and a draft system and salary cap would turn that on its head.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625072#Comment_121625072

Bringing female professionalism into the equation is just ridiculous. That will never happen. Any sport has to generate the funds to wash its own face. Can't be leveraging the mens game to subsidies the ladies game. If football was to go pro it wouldn't be expected to carry hurling and vice versa.

Plus there would never be 32 teams. 16 at most in football. 12 in hurling.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121629851#Comment_121629851

And thats where the whole thing breaks down.

Who gets to decide which teams should be pro and which shouldnt.

Dublin can go pro, but Meath cant. Or Meath can go pro, but Offaly cant. Or Offaly hurlers can go pro but the Offaly footballers cant.

Dublin pro team is playing Longford amateur team in the all Ireland... why should Longford show up....

What happens when the men are being paid and the women arent. Do you really think the Dublin mens team is training any harder than the Dublin womens team?

Not to mention that the players themselves arent particularly calling for it.

Will never happen.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121629784#Comment_121629784

I thought the Ulster football championship might pull off a semi pro approach - figures don't really hold up. Only one championship that could really. Munster hurling championship. Well, over thirty thousand at a good few group game. Nearly 44,000 for the final.

You could have Munster games based over home, away, and neutral venue. Aggregate games for semis and finals - best of three. People can't get enough the games down here. People would whinge, they love a whinge. But they always go. The numbers of attendance are growing despite a cost of living crisis. That's because the product works. People don't turn their noses away from something that is enthralling just because there's more of it. It's strength is outlined again recently when Kiely said that winning the Munster final last year was the highlight of his time as manager. The atmosphere of the Munster games can't be beaten.

Once you go into a Ireland league format, that's an unknown without established precedent. Unlike the figures of the Munster hurling championship, the other teams don't really draw, even for finals, outside of Mayo and Dublin footballers. But it definitely could be tried. If the league of Ireland can pull it off, anyone can.