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How to improve consistency in rugby officiating

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    #62
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567214#Comment_121567214

    attacking teams are nearly always offside - you'd wonder is it better to get rid of the 5M back for attacking teams?

    The easiest thing to spot is probably the crocked feed but we let that go. It's a world of madness and can certainly appreciate the frustrations.



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    #63
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,757 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567361#Comment_121567361

    Now that's a cop out. You can't whine constantly and have no suggestions.

    Not pulling someone for something like a step offside at scrum where players are 5m from their n8. Isn't a cop out.


    We don't want games with far more penalties. We also don't want to discourage players chancing their arms with the law for the sake of the game. Players will always challenge the law. You want to that in the sport

    Do you agree with the advantage law and would you prefer we went back to games with far more penalties awarded to teams. Bearing in mind top teams in world cup averaged 8/9 penalties a game



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    #64
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,720 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567406#Comment_121567406

    You go into a coffee shop and you get an eclair or profiteroles and you're not happy with the product, you complain, would you really accept it if the reply was "choux pastry is difficult to make, how would you improve it"



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    #65
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,720 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567367#Comment_121567367

    Maybe from the stands but for someone on the pitch or one sideline it really isn't that difficult to see the ball but maybe an improvement would be a flourescent yellow ball and ban coloured boots 😁



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    #66
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,757 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567479#Comment_121567479

    Now who is coping out? Answer my question what kind of game do you want. Do you want to go to games with double or treble the number of penalties. Do you agree with the advantage law. Every offside isn't material as theyre not the same. You don't just penalise something when you see it. You play on at times and warn players. Otherwise the game is unplayable, unwatchable. Un manageable and not interesting.



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    #67
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567479#Comment_121567479

    What's your complaint?

    "It doesn't taste nice" isn't much use as feedback.



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    #68
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,034 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567406#Comment_121567406

    Why would you want players to challenge the laws? That kinda defeats the point of having laws.

    If you dont penalise step offside when do you penalize? 2 steps? 4? This is the problem with ignoring the laws. Maybe 1 ref thinks 3 steps is fine but another thinks 5, you are basically playing a different game depending on the ref then.

    The game would arguably be better if defenders were all onside, more chance of something exciting happening in attack, which is what we all want, right?


    You say that refs let things go all the time, but how much is them letting things go and how much is them simply not seeing it because they are looking at something else? The feed is always a great example of this. If there isnt a far contest for the ball, why have scrums? Just go league style or award a free kick?



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    #69
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,034 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567581#Comment_121567581

    Its only unplayable if the players choose to keep giving away penalties!

    Any team that does that will just keep losing to every other team with a solid kicker, so I dont believe it would ruin the game at all.



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    #70
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567096#Comment_121567096

    'A ref will miss things'. This is the heart of the problem. More officials means less things missed.

    Referees are arguably the most skilled people in the game and the long existing position where respect was automatically accorded them is under threat. But we need to remember that referees & other officials have the same in built capacity for error & inconsistency that players & coaches do. We need to re-establish the culture of respect for officiating by improving the capacity of officials to effectively referee. Players & coaches are constantly seeking to evolve & improve performance. Should WR do more to bring similar improvements to officiating ?. Should that include testing the idea of more officials, targeted at the problem areas (breakdown & offside lines spring to mind) ?.



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    #71
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,757 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568091#Comment_121568091

    Adding more officials where and in what capacity. Targeting breakdown and offside how? We have assistant refs in pro game and they're their to cover that. World rugby don't necessarily see offside being the issue some fans think it is. When was last time world rugby in its law adaptations/changes put in a change specifically aimed around reducing the "blight" of offside at breakdown.



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    #72
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568091#Comment_121568091

    I think more officials you get more interpretations and more mess and harder to let the game flow.

    For example, I look to play advantage and will remind players loudly one's on - and if it's a penalty or scrum advantage. They get used pretty quickly that for a penalty advantage that goes for a bit longer and will generally be looking for serious gain otherwise I'll go back. Then you see them trying higher risk things like most cross field kicks and they also stop appealing for the penalty because they hear advantage and keep going. Similarly, when someone jackals if I think they can get the ball I'll let them get it rather than pinging quickly. Why? because when you have a transition you have much more space and great opportunity to attack in any sport - especially rugby. Teams get used to you doing this - they attack more and overall you get more open rugby. There's a long list of things that add up to ref style and teams interpret the ref and play accordingly. More officials, I think can adversely impact the game.

    I'd much prefer to see an open game and let a few micro and non-material offsides go rather than stop / start the game with someone whistling people off the park. At any level.



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    #73
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    " ..let a few micro and non-material offsides go .."

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121572582#Comment_121572582

    This seems to indicate that you see all & are able to adjudicate what is materiel and what is not.

    I have no doubt that you are an excellent referee and that players find your approach welcoming.

    I do however have tiny doubts as to whether you, or any referee, see all.

    'Two heads are better than one' and 'I don't have eyes in the back of my head' are time worn & hackneyed sayings but are nevertheless true.

    How, as a matter of interest, did you respond to the institution of TMOs ?. More officials & more mess or were able to percieve any benefit in it, or indeed trialling any change in officiating ?

    The direction of travel regarding the treatment of referees & officials by WR, Unions, coaches, players (at all levels), supporters & fans is clear, and it's not getting better. Some interesting commentry on this is available in a recent publication 'Throwing the Book' by some fella called Barnes, who used to ref a bit back in the day.



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    #74
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,906 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    The laws of the game are there to facilitate fair and even contests. Without adherence to these we have a chaotic free for all. Referees have to pass qualifications in order to be part of the game. Here's a wild idea. Make professional players do the same. No qualifications …no play. Any moron without a licence can get behind the wheel of a vehicle and drive it. That is why the driving test is more than just moving the car. I am a retired biologist. I know where all the bits are and what makes them work,,(well, I used too.) but most people wouldn't be happy with me taking out their appendix or doing a heart transplant. We seem to have a laissez-faire attitude to well paid and very physical athletes when it comes to ignoring the laws of the game. It's very easy to blame the referee for not spotting Jimmy Ripshite handling in the ruck or standing offside or straight arming someone's jugular or torpedoing into the ruck from the side.



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    #75
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575856#Comment_121575856

    Excellent suggestion. France brought in Jerome Garces to coach their national team and referees have held workshops for club sides here. But having players & coaches having to study the Laws & their application must assist them in understanding what referees are trying to accomplish (in player's interests).



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    #76
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565660#Comment_121565660

    One aspect of Association Football at a Pro level is that their governing bodies back up the Refs without question or comment.

    Even if you have to endure the abuse of fans & players on the pitch & in the media, you know your FA has your back.

    Nigel's much repeated "this is not football" quote is not entirely fair.



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    #77
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575577#Comment_121575577

    No ref's see all and you are doing well if you hit 95 percent accuracy on the main things.

    I didn't like the TMO role in 2015 world cup and think it's got better by forcing ref to call on field decision. I think in general there's a trade off if you want more accuracy you need to make the game simpler and part of the appeal of the game is the complexity.

    I think the big issue now is that in really close games in the world cup they were decided by subjective decisions by the ref on scrum penalties. This is really annoying so can see where you are coming from.



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    #78
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575856#Comment_121575856

    Pro players know the laws and play on the edge. Many amateur players don't them all and we don't mind that - we want these lads and ladies playing first and foremast and there to help. I certainly hadn't a clue sometimes when I played - which was a long long time ago.

    Playing on the edge is something I like about the game - they read the ref and then see what they can get away with. It's skill, intelligence and artistry all in one - at all levels of the sport. I'd hate to see that part of the game go.



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