How to improve consistency in rugby officiating

Tim Robbins

At 90% percent of amateur rugby matches now there are a few know it all's on the pitch and on the sidelines who won't shut up. I think you could have laser precision decision making and they will still not shut up.

In comparison to other sports, we are miles ahead in standards of referring at amateur level. At professional levels I am not so sure - it's probably even or others are slightly ahead of us sometimes and we are slightly ahead of them other times. Also think the standards in Leinster J leagues are way better than what they were - nearly everyone is very interested in fitness and putting a lot of work in. The support structures are also excellent - second to none. When I chat to ref's in other sports I feel very lucky.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558494#Comment_121558494

It probably would have been a better look if you had at least left a few days after the match. I'm afraid it just just comes across as sour grapes.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559920#Comment_121559920

Understand completely which is why I have repeated that Ulster deserved to win and selected what I thought was an obvious inconsistency.

Another poster mentioned scrum shenanigans which would need several camera angles to figure out and show issues with officiating. There was the Lowry stand up penalty that Andrew Trimble called, but I think several times a match you will have players testing the tackle and that is what he did.

The example I used had minimal impact on the result because Leinster scored 7 points very soon after. Inconsistency should be minimised, whether it impacts the result or not.

First Up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559354#Comment_121559354

No complaints from me about Leinster losing last night. Ulster were the better team and Leinster made costly mistakes.

I also have sympathy for referees trying to spot everything in a fast moving and complex game.

However there is no exuse for referees with access to replays who still get it wrong. I have previously exampled Murphy's wildly different interpretations of foul play after replays (red card for Leinster for a collision contesting a high ball; no penalty or sanction against Munster for knocking a player unconcious).

That isn't excusable - or incompetence.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559755#Comment_121559755

The op specifically mentioned he was talking about the pro game only though.

I think we are still ahead of a lot of sports in pro game. Though there is plenty of criticism I have yet to see any suggestions from many very vocal critics of what could be done to improve things

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560469#Comment_121560469

What about having more than 1 ref, with each ref looking at specific laws/parts of the pitch?

e.g. NHL has 2 refs, field hockey has 2 umpires, NBA has 3 who look at distinct parts of the court, NFL has 7 SEVEN officials on the pitch.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560469#Comment_121560469

is plenty of criticism I have yet to see any suggestions from many very vocal critics of what could be done to improve things

A poster can be correct in being critical without having to propose solutions, that's the remit of someone else.

Personally, I think Frank is a poor ref and shouldn't be getting InterPros, I prefer Busby but I thought he was poor enough last night but in their defence, reffing a game in the weather that both games were played in last night and on St Stephen's night is far more challenging and I'd cut them some slack

I would question, how, when using TMOs the officials can get it so wrong at times.

Akrasia

Rugby has 3 on field officials and a TMO...

Maybe one part of the problems is that referees are constantly being harangued by players. Leinster being absolutely notorious for this BTW.

Another part of the problem being players deliberately trying to buy penalties and yellow cards by feigning or exaggerating injuries. Wales special here. But recently becoming much more common in Ireland, see McCarthy trying to buy a card against Munster this week...

And the fact that scrums are pretty much a competition in who can get away with being the most illegal. Porter is illegal in pretty much every single scrum. But IRFU refs in particular turn a blind eye and end up rewarding him because they have to penalise someone when the scrum collapses so they penalise the other team....

Everyone in rugby knows Porter is illegal in most scrums. The ref even says it a lot of the time and still chooses to not award penalties against him...

Ribs1234

at the pro level:

touchjudges to call offside lines

2 refs on field

overhead camera used for the scrum

but realistically World Rugby have made the game too complicated - simplify the rules(laws) and give the ref the freedom to interpret what he/she sees. Let the TMO pick up the dangerous foul play (risks of head injury)

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560751#Comment_121560751

at the pro level:

touchjudges to call offside lines

You're going to be told they do this all the time - they don't. Though Hodnett was called offside yesterday at a lineout. Last week, Gallagher couldn't see McGrath offside at every Munster scrum.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560613#Comment_121560613

I can feel for the players exaggerating injuries, especially around the head and neck area. It sometimes seems like the main way things related to head issues are looked at are if a player is injured. Neck rolls and other ruck related offences are prone to this I believe.

Regarding Porter and scrums in general, an over looking camera would help identify who is or isn't driving straight. Wouldn't necessarily need directly overhead that sometimes gets hit by the ball, but high would be good enough that we could see why people are being penalised some times and not others. Side on gives the knee to ground or collapsing.

Maybe players discussing things with the ref is to do with what they got away with at a different time in the match, or what the opposition got away with at a different time? But it should absolutely go through or with the captain.

Ben Bailey

There is an obvious difficulty in improving the officiating of matches and it's the called The Referee.

Any system where only one person is the sole arbiter of fact will produce obvious failings.

Perhaps a system, which other posters have alluded to, of having enough officials of more equal standing (American football comes to mind) to effectively monitor all aspects of play would improve things.

Such a system only works when players are unable to contest on field decisions and 'coach's challenges' are also limited. Players must contain their frustrations, and officials must avoid frustating players.

I have long been a supporter of Frank, but he's becoming his own worst enemy. I also thought Buzzer was very good in Galway. Missed stuff, but communicated very well. That's all, under the present system, that can be asked.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560532#Comment_121560532

The problem is what do you have each ref looking at.

Far easier in nfl with time of each play etc. Harder with rugby.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560788#Comment_121560788

They do and call them when they're material. Most often they're not so you don't penalise them.

You have a belief you immediately penalise anyone who does anything that infringes the laws of the game. No ref anywhere at any level can or will do that.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562530#Comment_121562530

When you add 'what is materiel' to the onfield 'coaching' of players it becomes very confusing.

Perhaps a review of the Laws to focus on what is absolutely going to be penalised instead of what might, despite what the Laws state, be penalised, by some refs, depending on the situation.

In terms of what the Laws state, a particular action is either a penalisable offence or it isn't. If players don't get penalised for infringing to gain an advatage, they'll continue infringing.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562530#Comment_121562530

It's material, when the player that makes the first tackle starts from offside. That goes unpunished.

Last week McGrath was offside (materially) at most of the Munster scrums in the first half, never once called by the AR, penalised once by Brace

Casey spoke to Gallagher immediately after the first scrum, no call for the second or subsequent scrums

They're easy calls/fixes but go unpunished.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560469#Comment_121560469

What you think of Football ref's?

I was at a few league of ireland games over summer and thought they were very good. General fitness, lines of running were great from both ref's and linesman. Lower levels, not good at all.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562524#Comment_121562524

I think you have to look at the laws and break up the responsibility into areas/groups that make sense.

Its a bit like penalties in soccer. Its impossible for a ref to make sure the keeper is on the line when the ball is kicked AND that there are no players encroaching on the area. Its literally trying to look at two places at the exact same time.

A single ref cant police the put-in AND also make sure everyone is onside, so maybe you separate that, as an example?

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565660#Comment_121565660

Physical fitness, as in all sports, enables mental awareness over longer periods. Our IRFU refs look and move & think better than their predecessors did. But having to adjudicate multiple actions has resulted in referees, at WR's direction, choosing to deal what is deemed 'materiel'. The more certain offences are ignored, the more offences by multiple players simulataneously will occur, exponentially increasing the onfield workload of the referee & thus making consistency more unattainable.

Ref the Laws, and if that is impossible, change the Laws. And if that is impossible (& imho it's not) increase the number of officials actively monitoring the game. At Pro level this will mean more learning opportunities through active involvement for the next generation of officials. At the moment Pro games require a minimum of 5 officials. It's hardly a stretch to add one more.

GreeBo

^ and having more of them on the field would probably lead to less things going to TMO, so would be faster.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565660#Comment_121565660

I don't watch it enough to comment but at lower levels and same with gaa refs don't get enough training and supports especially compared to rugby.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562710#Comment_121562710

Many times they're not material. A ref will miss things. It's impossible not to. If they were so easy then they'd be pulled.

What exactly do you want changed about ref's. You complain all the time saying they're crap and miss things but never have any solutions. Real ones that could actually work.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566402#Comment_121566402

We already have assistant refs who have far more powers than the touch judges of old. They're micced up and communicate far more than most people watching realise.

Refs have always reffed based on what's material. That isn't something new.

Pro games have more than 5 on duty now anyway.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567105#Comment_121567105

1. Referee
2. Assistant Referee
3. Assistant Referee
4. TMO
5. Official monitoring match, Sin bin & HIA timings

Who are the others you speak of ?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567096#Comment_121567096

It's not up to an online poster to draft improvements to how refs are developed.

But to dismiss my post by saying "A ref will miss things. It's impossible not to. If they were so easy then they'd be pulled" after I giving you real examples from a recent game is the greatest cop out I've read on Boards in ages.

The easiest offside to spot is surely at a scrum, three sets of eyes on it. Especially, when the offside has been brought to your attention.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567214#Comment_121567214

Go away with cop outs. They don't pull many things. If someone is a step offside at scrum no you don't pull. If entire

I asked for you to give suggestions for improvements because you always have issues with referees. Their interpretation of the Laws of the game and their application of the Laws. I don't see how it should be a problem for you to give suggestions when you constantly are complaining about how poor most refs are In rhe pro game.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567086#Comment_121567086

Completely agree. Rugby is miles and miles and miles ahead at lower levels.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566402#Comment_121566402

The higher game I think the clear and obvious ok to be 3 pointers but subjective calls in the scrum shouldn't be. Might be better to give a tap penalty instead of a 3 pointer. The other part is in nearly every game there are also very subjective 3 pointers given at the breakdown. Really don't know what to do on that one. It can be very frustrating in close matches for everyone.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567239#Comment_121567239

I've given you examples of offsides and you reply with this "They don't pull many things. If someone is a step offside at scrum no you don't pull" and you think that's not a cop out 😮

As for my suggestions on how to improve it, I'll repeat, that's up to the governing bodies.

Look, I'm not going there again with you, we can cut out the shadow boxing. I've my view, you've yours and it seems to grate you, it's not my intention to do that so let's leave it be.

Podge_irl

I'm really not seeing how an AR or the ref figuring out where exactly in the scrum the ball is is the easiest call to make re offside