How to improve consistency in rugby officiating

randomname2005

I have been wondering if there is any way to improve the consistency of officiating in rugby at high/elite levels.

First up, This is not an attack on referees as individuals, they have an awful job to do,with players nearly being as good as bending the rules as any other part of the game, the speed of the game, and blocked sight lines. However, there is a team of several officials in elite and high level games who should be able to get things consistent within the game and across games. Obviously on the side of a mountain with a branch ref and club touch judges, nothing can be done with just a single person, hence why I said certain levels.

Secondly, this isn't to claim that with consistent officiating Leinster would have beaten Ulster in the game today, New year's Day, 2024. Leinster had several big errors in the closing minutes that could have won the game for them. I just use examples that are fresh in my head.

Enough preamble, what am I talking about? Once in the game, Baird is penalised for playing the ball on the ground, correctly. Another time in the game the ref penalises, I think, O'Brien for tackling a player on the ground. Correct again. Towards the end of the game, McCarthy is tackled, while on the ground, by a player on the ground, about 60 mins on the game clock, after his block down. And nothing. No advantage or a word from the officials, for what could potentially be a yellow card and penalty try offence. (My understanding is that when a penalty occurs the offending player is considered removed from the game and they look at what would have happened Without them. Given the distance to the line, no other defenders around, a probable try would have been scored. And cynical so yellow.)

Should we accept this kind of inconsistency given the amount of people involved in officiating the game and technology, or look at improving it?

Obviously asking the question I would prefer better levels of consistency, but I have no idea how to go about it.

almostover

1. Get rid of the 'jackal' type competition at rucks. Go back to the old rules that the ball can only be turned over at a ruck by driving past the ball. Will help limit injuries like the Dan Leavy one and the one on JOD today for Munster.

2. Stop the incessant coaching. Warn the players once in a match and then penalise. One warning is enough.

3. Limit scrum infringements to a free kick. Penalty only on the 3rd successive scrum offense. Too many shenanigans going on in scrums to try to milk penalties from the officials. Scrums are about shoving the opposition off the ball.

4. Bring back a straight feed at scrums so the primary purpose of the scrums for the defensive team is to hook against the head or push the other team off their ball.

5. Hopefully item 1 above will allow for policing of the offside line more closely. The referees can't do that effectively because each ruck is such a mess with so many hands vying for the ball.

Paul Smeenus

Oh sweet Christ. Leinster lose to Ulster and we need new officiating laws.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058329143/how-to-improve-consistency-in-rugby-officiating

And what of the multiple advantages leinster got from incidents the ref missed or didn't penalise. I'm sure ulster posters here could easily argue about multiple incidents that leinster were not penalised or that they should have got a penalty when they didn't. That's part of the game.

Your idea of when a penalty try is awarded is incorrect.

Hoe would you improve the officiating or laws?

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558461#Comment_121558461

No not necessarily. We need consistent implementation of the laws. If they can't be implemented consistently in one game, never mind across games, then maybe.

Should I have written this as a draft and saved it until the next time Leinster beat Ulster? Ulster deserved to win today. If Leinster had not made those two kicking mistakes and awful defense from CF they could won. But the inconsistency in officiating is still there.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558493#Comment_121558493

"thats part of the game" when referring to referee mistakes is kinda a cop out tbh.

What exactly is wrong with a thread that hopes to remove such mistakes?

Dave_The_Sheep

Jesus Christ.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558510#Comment_121558510

Because you won't remove them. It's impossible to keep every single incident reffed exactly as the Laws intend.

We have a laws thread already. We have a general rugby thread. The op could easily have went into either of those.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558535#Comment_121558535

Laws thread is for questions about the laws and the general thread is too general. This seems a specific thread on what could/should be changed in the game to either make it easier to referee or change how referring happens.

Hell, maybe we should have 2 referees who are each looking after specific laws.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558549#Comment_121558549

The Laws thread has always been about discussion of laws and there application as well.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558559#Comment_121558559

Unfortunately there is application of laws and consistency of application. Crooked feed into a scrum is not applied, and this is mostly consistent. Except for random one off circumstances like Japan losing to, I believe Scotland, in their world cup.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558493#Comment_121558493

How is it applied?

I don't know, that is why I was looking to see what the good folks of boards might think.

ulsteru20s

Leinster basically specialize in playing just over the line and honestly straight up shenanigans in the scrum, and then after every loss its the ref’s fault .

Honestly a tad pathetic.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558621#Comment_121558621

Sad reality of rugby these days, every team’s fans complain about the referee after a loss. Amplified by the echo chamber of social media where ‘analytical’ fan accounts show selected clips to push the narrative.

Has been like that for years although seems to have become even more notable with Rassie’s antics during the Lions tour. Has created a toxic atmosphere on line around the game.

randomname2005

Ffs. Do I need to go through several matches to show inconsistency? Or maybe it is just me that prefers consistency in a game

Dave_The_Sheep

Maybe time it better.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558494#Comment_121558494

Consistent application of every law isn't going to happen. Because you won't have it. You have to look at temperature of games, context of the game.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558724#Comment_121558724

No one cares mate, ye lost, get over it.

All the players are having a few pints and a bit of banter together, Christmas times.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558790#Comment_121558790

Ulster deserved to win. Great start to go 12 0 up, less mistakes than Leinster, and didn't have to force things like Leinster did towards the end. A minute or so after the incident Leinster scored a converted try. This isn't about the winning or losing of the game tonight but rugby in general

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558621#Comment_121558621

I'd say every team does, which makes officiating so hard.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558699#Comment_121558699

I guess in fairness to leinster fans, when they lose they tend to lose narrowly. So, i can see concentrating on decisions.

Locke_Lamora

Munster lose a player to injury = ban the jackal

Leinster lose to Ulster = officiating itself should be upended

Not only have we managed to beat Leinster in Dublin but we've managed to score an impressive moral victory this week. Spooky stuff happening this year.

randomname2005

Mods, please lock the thread, the majority don't see any issues with officiating and want to keep the status quo.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558918#Comment_121558918

We're literally half-day through the season and you start a thread on this after you lose at home. On the last game of the first half of the season.

Why did you wait until now, if it was a general, league-wide observation?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559354#Comment_121559354

Well I guess at least you are not hiding your bias I suppose.

Any chance you could take the thread topic on merit, or it not, just dont bother to post? Honestly, whats the point?

Paul Smeenus

I'll address it.

Murphy Is a poor ref both teams will have dreaded. I thought he was consistent during the game, if frustrating. Same as Busby earlier, who penalised both team for the same things that annoyed him.

I think the fact that it has been posted after Leinster's first loss at home, means the wish to "improve the consistency of officiating in rugby at high/elite levels" rings hollow.

Why now? Why is this oh-so-admirable desire to sort out officiating only raising it's head after a whole half a season? Is this the first game where poor decisions have been evident? Obviously not, given what the poster says. Did they post this after any egregious decisions in any other game? No. Don't know why. It's only been worth paying attention to now.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559639#Comment_121559639

I thought about starting it after the world cup, when I was constantly bemused by decisions in games, a concrete example being head contact. From the eng v arg game where it looked like a harsh red card and other games where, what looked like similar collisions, resulted in less severe penalties. Or other games where I thought things weren't officiated consistently. The final where etzebeth had a lazy run back inside near his own line which could have been dealt with harsher given other cynical offences in other games across competitions. But it is difficult to grab samples from random games and compare, as I don't have the time to revisit hours of games.

Tonight, however, was, what I thought, a clear example of inconsistent officiating. Not a case of a split second were they or weren't they supporting their own body weight when jackling. Was there half a boot over the offside line? Which prop popped up first? And given the game is fresh in memories I thought it would be a good, concrete example of inconsistencies to look at ways of improving officiating and hence the game. The game should be won by the best 23 players (tonight was Ulster) not by any other reason .

Paul Smeenus

So you didn't. Until Leinster lost.

Sounds telling to me.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559718#Comment_121559718

I know, the first loss that Leinster have had in all the time I have been on boards is when I decide to ask this question.

You got me.

Paul Smeenus

Okay. Not sure where you're going with this. Still, posting this after a Leinster loss in no way makes it look like bitter whining.

Paul Smeenus

I know - there's multiple moments when you could have posted such concerns - like your RWC example - but didn't care enough to.

Now you do care enough. It's suddenly very important.

Okay.

Tim Robbins

At 90% percent of amateur rugby matches now there are a few know it all's on the pitch and on the sidelines who won't shut up. I think you could have laser precision decision making and they will still not shut up.

In comparison to other sports, we are miles ahead in standards of referring at amateur level. At professional levels I am not so sure - it's probably even or others are slightly ahead of us sometimes and we are slightly ahead of them other times. Also think the standards in Leinster J leagues are way better than what they were - nearly everyone is very interested in fitness and putting a lot of work in. The support structures are also excellent - second to none. When I chat to ref's in other sports I feel very lucky.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558494#Comment_121558494

It probably would have been a better look if you had at least left a few days after the match. I'm afraid it just just comes across as sour grapes.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559920#Comment_121559920

Understand completely which is why I have repeated that Ulster deserved to win and selected what I thought was an obvious inconsistency.

Another poster mentioned scrum shenanigans which would need several camera angles to figure out and show issues with officiating. There was the Lowry stand up penalty that Andrew Trimble called, but I think several times a match you will have players testing the tackle and that is what he did.

The example I used had minimal impact on the result because Leinster scored 7 points very soon after. Inconsistency should be minimised, whether it impacts the result or not.

First Up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559354#Comment_121559354

No complaints from me about Leinster losing last night. Ulster were the better team and Leinster made costly mistakes.

I also have sympathy for referees trying to spot everything in a fast moving and complex game.

However there is no exuse for referees with access to replays who still get it wrong. I have previously exampled Murphy's wildly different interpretations of foul play after replays (red card for Leinster for a collision contesting a high ball; no penalty or sanction against Munster for knocking a player unconcious).

That isn't excusable - or incompetence.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559755#Comment_121559755

The op specifically mentioned he was talking about the pro game only though.

I think we are still ahead of a lot of sports in pro game. Though there is plenty of criticism I have yet to see any suggestions from many very vocal critics of what could be done to improve things

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560469#Comment_121560469

What about having more than 1 ref, with each ref looking at specific laws/parts of the pitch?

e.g. NHL has 2 refs, field hockey has 2 umpires, NBA has 3 who look at distinct parts of the court, NFL has 7 SEVEN officials on the pitch.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560469#Comment_121560469

is plenty of criticism I have yet to see any suggestions from many very vocal critics of what could be done to improve things

A poster can be correct in being critical without having to propose solutions, that's the remit of someone else.

Personally, I think Frank is a poor ref and shouldn't be getting InterPros, I prefer Busby but I thought he was poor enough last night but in their defence, reffing a game in the weather that both games were played in last night and on St Stephen's night is far more challenging and I'd cut them some slack

I would question, how, when using TMOs the officials can get it so wrong at times.

Akrasia

Rugby has 3 on field officials and a TMO...

Maybe one part of the problems is that referees are constantly being harangued by players. Leinster being absolutely notorious for this BTW.

Another part of the problem being players deliberately trying to buy penalties and yellow cards by feigning or exaggerating injuries. Wales special here. But recently becoming much more common in Ireland, see McCarthy trying to buy a card against Munster this week...

And the fact that scrums are pretty much a competition in who can get away with being the most illegal. Porter is illegal in pretty much every single scrum. But IRFU refs in particular turn a blind eye and end up rewarding him because they have to penalise someone when the scrum collapses so they penalise the other team....

Everyone in rugby knows Porter is illegal in most scrums. The ref even says it a lot of the time and still chooses to not award penalties against him...

at the pro level:

touchjudges to call offside lines

2 refs on field

overhead camera used for the scrum

but realistically World Rugby have made the game too complicated - simplify the rules(laws) and give the ref the freedom to interpret what he/she sees. Let the TMO pick up the dangerous foul play (risks of head injury)

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560751#Comment_121560751

at the pro level:

touchjudges to call offside lines

You're going to be told they do this all the time - they don't. Though Hodnett was called offside yesterday at a lineout. Last week, Gallagher couldn't see McGrath offside at every Munster scrum.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560613#Comment_121560613

I can feel for the players exaggerating injuries, especially around the head and neck area. It sometimes seems like the main way things related to head issues are looked at are if a player is injured. Neck rolls and other ruck related offences are prone to this I believe.

Regarding Porter and scrums in general, an over looking camera would help identify who is or isn't driving straight. Wouldn't necessarily need directly overhead that sometimes gets hit by the ball, but high would be good enough that we could see why people are being penalised some times and not others. Side on gives the knee to ground or collapsing.

Maybe players discussing things with the ref is to do with what they got away with at a different time in the match, or what the opposition got away with at a different time? But it should absolutely go through or with the captain.

Ben Bailey

There is an obvious difficulty in improving the officiating of matches and it's the called The Referee.

Any system where only one person is the sole arbiter of fact will produce obvious failings.

Perhaps a system, which other posters have alluded to, of having enough officials of more equal standing (American football comes to mind) to effectively monitor all aspects of play would improve things.

Such a system only works when players are unable to contest on field decisions and 'coach's challenges' are also limited. Players must contain their frustrations, and officials must avoid frustating players.

I have long been a supporter of Frank, but he's becoming his own worst enemy. I also thought Buzzer was very good in Galway. Missed stuff, but communicated very well. That's all, under the present system, that can be asked.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560532#Comment_121560532

The problem is what do you have each ref looking at.

Far easier in nfl with time of each play etc. Harder with rugby.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560788#Comment_121560788

They do and call them when they're material. Most often they're not so you don't penalise them.

You have a belief you immediately penalise anyone who does anything that infringes the laws of the game. No ref anywhere at any level can or will do that.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562530#Comment_121562530

When you add 'what is materiel' to the onfield 'coaching' of players it becomes very confusing.

Perhaps a review of the Laws to focus on what is absolutely going to be penalised instead of what might, despite what the Laws state, be penalised, by some refs, depending on the situation.

In terms of what the Laws state, a particular action is either a penalisable offence or it isn't. If players don't get penalised for infringing to gain an advatage, they'll continue infringing.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562530#Comment_121562530

It's material, when the player that makes the first tackle starts from offside. That goes unpunished.

Last week McGrath was offside (materially) at most of the Munster scrums in the first half, never once called by the AR, penalised once by Brace

Casey spoke to Gallagher immediately after the first scrum, no call for the second or subsequent scrums

They're easy calls/fixes but go unpunished.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560469#Comment_121560469

What you think of Football ref's?

I was at a few league of ireland games over summer and thought they were very good. General fitness, lines of running were great from both ref's and linesman. Lower levels, not good at all.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562524#Comment_121562524

I think you have to look at the laws and break up the responsibility into areas/groups that make sense.

Its a bit like penalties in soccer. Its impossible for a ref to make sure the keeper is on the line when the ball is kicked AND that there are no players encroaching on the area. Its literally trying to look at two places at the exact same time.

A single ref cant police the put-in AND also make sure everyone is onside, so maybe you separate that, as an example?

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565660#Comment_121565660

Physical fitness, as in all sports, enables mental awareness over longer periods. Our IRFU refs look and move & think better than their predecessors did. But having to adjudicate multiple actions has resulted in referees, at WR's direction, choosing to deal what is deemed 'materiel'. The more certain offences are ignored, the more offences by multiple players simulataneously will occur, exponentially increasing the onfield workload of the referee & thus making consistency more unattainable.

Ref the Laws, and if that is impossible, change the Laws. And if that is impossible (& imho it's not) increase the number of officials actively monitoring the game. At Pro level this will mean more learning opportunities through active involvement for the next generation of officials. At the moment Pro games require a minimum of 5 officials. It's hardly a stretch to add one more.

GreeBo

^ and having more of them on the field would probably lead to less things going to TMO, so would be faster.