Immigration to Ireland - policies, challenges, and solutions *Read OP before posting*

_Kaiser_

Following a discussion with @Ten of Swords in the "Zero Refugee policy" thread, I am creating this one as a more general discussion on immigration to Ireland including refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants and essentially anyone else who arrives at our shores.

Given the challenges of discussing this topic without including all of these types, the reasons behind them, the challenges and potential opportunities it presents, and the possible solutions that could be implemented to address the issues, it was agreed to setup this more general topic.

Obviously no one wants this to become a battleground and ideally we can discuss the issues and solutions like adults, but I'll let ToS and the other Mods handle the rules side of it. It's an important topic though and one which affects everyone in this country - now or in the near future - and it's one worthy of debate.

To kick us off then...

I am fully sympathetic to genuine refugees and their plight, but I recognise that we can only do so much as a small island with limited resources and a lot of serious domestic problems already that we are abjectly failing to tackle in any meaningful way. I believe that we can only do so much to help and that there is no shame or "wrongness" in recognising and admitting that.

On top of that, I recognise that our Government's current approach is encouraging more and more people to arrive at our doors - many of whom are not refugees but economic migrants in search of a better life. Again there is nothing wrong with that either in principle - so long as they follow the established rules for entry and working here, are upfront about it, and have skills we need.

However, we must recognise that we are already struggling to provide supports to those who are already here (both natives, EU citizens, and other more recent arrivals) and that this is having a serious and negative effect on key services and infrastructure. This only hurts us all and we need to accept (per recent polls) that we need to revisit the strategy here.

As I've said.. charity begins at home, and we can't solve all the ills of the world, nor can we resettle everyone who arrives at our door. We need to impose stronger vetting criteria and processes, improve the turnaround time of deciding on applicants claims, enforce a stronger deportation/rejection process where needed, and put limits on the numbers we accept and process at any given time to allow this all to happen.

We need to stop virtue signalling and grandstanding for the world about how generous and open we are, and recognise that there is nothing wrong with protecting the integrity and stability of our own State as well - economically, socially, and for the future for all who live here.

Open to the floor...

Mod warnings:

26/11/23 - No discussion of the stabbings or alleged perpetrator permitted. No discussion of the resultant riots on Thursday permitted.

23/02/24 - Drop the anecdotes, they are getting out of hand in this thread. Unverifiable and agenda driven stories, typically designed to rile people up or get a reaction. They will result in threadbans if they continue. Previous threads were closed because they got so bad.

26/04/24 - No further discussion of last night's incidents in Newtownmountkennedy permitted as charges have been laid

Threadbans:

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Honesty policy

LongfordMB

Gym_imposter

Ultimately there is a finite number of GP places, school places, housing and so forth, and you cannot plan for this if you effectively have uncontrolled migration into the country.

It cannot keep up, let alone keep pace.

And so you're spot on. The strategy needs to be revisited because if we cannot look after the people already in the country, how can we possibly commit to looking after even more on top of that?

That doesn't make someone "anti-immigration", it simply means we need to manage the country better.

greencap

We should predominantly (*but not exclusively*) operate on the basis of give and take.

The error our neighbor the UK made was that of largely operating on the sentimental basis of 'used to be a bit of our empire'. (among other motives).

Fellow EU countries give us the right to live there, while they can live here, shared market for labor, services and goods. Its largely a fair deal.

UK had some good reason for being concerned by the immigration numbers back in 2016.

What they did next was to ignore the part where they were getting something resembling a fair deal with the EU. And then repeated this wilfull blindness to the one sided deal they were (and still are) getting from the southern hemisphere. 1 million Brits still live in the EU, while maybe 6 Brits have ever intentionally moved to India or Pakistan. Its an entirely 1 sided deal, and as the brexit referendum aproached many people of southern hemisphere extraction could be found cheering on UKs disasterous exit from the rest of Europe.

Today UK is the home to the largest Pakistani diaspora, and a non-member of the EU, emigration has increased from the southern hemisphere, while EU immigration has decreased. Europeans have to a degree lost access to the UK, and Brits have lost rights in Europe. Brits still arent moving to Pakistan or India, why would they.

Whatever we do, we know not to do a UK.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665226#Comment_120665226

This is the problem with the recent issues, everyone is pretending that it's simply a matter of resources and nothing else, and if we had the resources all would be well. Social cohesion was one of the main concerns on old immigration threads and rightly so, as it's far more important than resources. All the resources in the world won't fix many of the problems that come with mass immigration, and people need to stop pretending otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666415#Comment_120666415

I agree, social cohesion and a sense of community are not worth sacrificing for the sake of GDP rising by a point or two.

Some things cannot be measured in terms of GDP, but which impact quality of life.

One eyed Jack

This only hurts us all and we need to accept (per recent polls) that we need to revisit the strategy here.

This is the key point right here.

There is no ‘us’, and there is no ‘all’.

There are people who agree with you and do nothing (per recent polls), and there are people who don’t agree with you and are doing everything (who aren’t bothered with polls).

Both groups are working off different strategies with different aims to achieve different outcomes. Both sides are taking casualties, and neither side sees any reason to compromise their positions.

Politicians are delighted to see both parties taking lumps out of each other, as they know it’ll set them up for life. They just need to pick a side.

suvigirl

I think one of the most important issues would be that posters are aware of the different types of migrants and what their status means. There seems to be a lot of people that just don't understand the difference.

Refugee - a person who has been granted international protection.

A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster

Asylum seeker - someone who is looking for international protection.

A person who has left their country and is seeking protection from persecution and serious human rights violations in another country, but who hasn't yet been legally recognized as a refugee and is waiting to receive a decision on their asylum claim.

Economic Migrant - a person who travels from one country or area to another in order to improve their standard of living.

Basically everyone that moves to another country.

Illegal immigrant - a person who comes to live or work in a country that is not their own when they do not have the legal right to do this.

Might help the discussion somewhat.

Patrick2010

Bottom two can also be claiming asylum.

Just a few statistics..

Immigration, Emigration and Net Migration in Ireland, 2011- 2021

It should by noted that the Immigrants column also includes returning Irish nationals. For example, "Of the 65,200 people who migrated to Ireland in the year to April 2021, some 30,200 (46.3%) were estimated to be Irish nationals,". Net migration had been in decline prior to the first Covid lockdown, which was in March 2020. Then of course there's the war in Ukraine, which caused the country to experience the highest population increase recorded since 2008. If that hadn't happened I doubt this thread would exist.

There were 645,500 non-Irish nationals resident in Ireland in April 2021 and there are an estimated one million Irish-born people living abroad today.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666700#Comment_120666700

Well then they are asylum seekers, when investigated it should be established whether they are genuine or not.

suvigirl

There were 4.3 million people who usually lived in Ireland who indicated that they had either Irish only or dual Irish citizenship. This made up 84% of the population of usual residents. The number of non-Irish citizens increased in 2022, accounting for 12% of the population.

• The biggest non-Irish groups were Polish and UK citizens followed by Indian, Romanian and Lithuanian.
• Brazilian, Italian, Latvian and Spanish citizens were also among the larger non-Irish groups.

Source: CSO Ireland

bokale

I must say I do enjoy the restaurants immigration has brought, some really cool places in Dublin these days!

Backstreet Moyes

What is the definition in ireland for an illegal immigrant?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666894#Comment_120666894

Section 5 immigration act 2004

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/1/section/5/enacted/en/html#sec5

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666794#Comment_120666794

Very surprised by those figures for migration as thought the numbers has been rising much more.

Urban legend I suppiose then.

JP Liz V1

We need a task force, policy reform and enforced deportations

Ireland just cannot handle the numbers coming in

I believe we have done our part greatly for Ukraine

I have sympathy for anyone fleeing war

The applications need to be approved or rejected quicker

Also if arriving without documents, I would jail or deport to what ever country they came from last and implement control at NI border

I probably sound harsh and no doubt a far right racist

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666921#Comment_120666921

So basically anyone who would fall under the definition of illegal immigrant has no reason to put themselves in that position.

All they have to do is turn up without documentation and claim asylum and they are not classed as illegal.

So basically our current immigration policy allows people who want to come here illegally to do it through a legal way.

So why would anyone who wants to come here illegally do it through illegal channels.

So it's a very fair assumption that people who would want to enter here illegally are turning up and claiming asylum and we don't class them as illegals.

We must be a laughing stock to the rest of the world.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666627#Comment_120666627

Most of the posters here believe there is only one kind of migrant - an economic migrant, who is here to take advantage of the system.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667223#Comment_120667223

No. Not necessarily.

People who have been served with deportation orders and haven't left the country are illegally here.

People coming from safe countries can try claiming asylum, but they are dealt with quickly and rarely granted refugee status.

Some people might just prefer to enter illegally and work on the black market for cash in hand.

Some people that are here illegally are trafficked in by criminal gangs and forced to work for them.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667245#Comment_120667245

Everybody is an economic Migrant!

How about all the foreigners working in tech in this country?

Or the Brazilians, or Filipinos.......etc etc etc

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667205#Comment_120667205

I agree with 80%of what you say except for the last part.

We are obliged to accept them at their word and apply no penalties or deport unless they have exhausted the asylum process.

This is to protect genuine refugees fleeing persecution and torture.

The problem is our system is swamped and they are neither being processed fast enough nor deported effectively pnce refused.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667293#Comment_120667293

You cannot board a plane without a passport whether a genuine refugee or not.

Anyone who arrives here on a plane without a passport has deliberately lost it.

So this idea that people are fleeing wars without a passport and boarding planes without passports is a lie.

They are simply economic immigrants who should be deported upon arrival.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667269#Comment_120667269

Who has said all immigrants are economic immigrants?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667337#Comment_120667337

That's simply not true. You can indeed get in a plane without a passport, I did it myself only last Monday. Passport was checked on arrival in Dublin.

However, I don't believe people deliberately destroy their identification documents should be allowed entry either.

But there is the problem that some genuine cases do have to leave their homes without documents, so we can't just turn them away without investigation. It shouldn't be very hard to check if their ID was checked before getting on board, if they 'lost ' it on the plane? Then no entry.

Of course, you can enter by land and sea also.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667341#Comment_120667341

The majority are. Economic Migrants are someone that moves in order to improve their standard of living. So basically everyone that goes to a different country,

except maybe the bag packing around Oz etc, young travellers just exploring.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667372#Comment_120667372

Where did you enter ireland from when you were allowed board a plane without a passport?

You have to scan your boarding pass and show your passport on every plane I have ever entered.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667406#Comment_120667406

London.

& The week before I left Dublin airport and walked straight out of the terminal in Heathrow and Noone checked my passport anywhere.

Patrick2010

Is Dublin Airport the same?

Furze99

There is nothing wrong with economic migrants from outside the EU or UK coming here in principle... as long as they apply for work visas and are granted them.

All other economic migrants must be stopped either at point of entry or very shortly afterwards and sent back from whence they came.

JP Liz V1

I've always shown my passport travelling in and out at airports to other countries

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667372#Comment_120667372

So you arrived in the UK, and did not have to show your passport. Did you travel from Ireland?

We all know that there is a common travel zone between Ireland and the UK, and you don’t have to show your passport when you arrive in the UK from Ireland. Did you have to show your passport to get into Ireland before you left for the UK, or where you born here to Irish parents?

You can get on a plane in most countries in the world without a passport, but you can’t get on a plane without a passport if the plane is leaving a common or free travel area.

Next you will tell us that you traveled across mainland Europe and went from country to country without showing your passport.

Well, everyone can do that, it is the Schengen travel zone.

The question is, did you enter the Schengen area without a passport?

Faugheen

The problem with discussions like this is that so many look at it from a black and white perspective, when the issues around it are far more complex than that.

For example, 'safe' countries. In the eyes of many on here, if the country is not at war then you shouldn't be claiming asylum. That is just wrong. There are many reasons that some asylum seekers don't feel safe in such countries.

The passport and travel documents one has dozens of layers to it. Vulnerable people being given false documents with the earth, moon and stars being promised to them, some people leaving their country because it's a crime for them to just be who they are. In this case, there isn't a hope in hell I would bring any identification because why would I trust any government when my own one have shown that they just want to make me a criminal for, say, being gay? Many people are only used to seeing some of the corrupt regimes in their native countries and believe this is what it's like everywhere. If I had that mindset, there's no way I'd have anything that identified who I was.

On the above, is everyone destroying their documents in this category? Absolutely not. It's very naive to think that there aren't some people who are chancing their arm. Likewise it's equally naive to think everyone is chancing their arm.

Finally, social cohesion. Again, not black and white. These are people coming from different cultures and under various regimes (some backwards, some barbaric). It's going to take time for them to adapt. However, anyone trotting out the 'social cohesion' line who is also in favour of those protests outside of asylum centres is a hypocrite. How can you claim social cohesion is a problem and then be in favour of allowing migrants to see a group of people outside their accommodation telling them to get out and blocking deliveries of bed linen and food? Why would anyone feel welcome when that's what they're subjected to through no fault of their own?

I honestly don't know what the solution is. It's clear the pressure on the services will only get worse however, at full employment, we'd be biting off our noses to spite our faces if we just closed up borders because 'Ireland is full' (it's not, but that's another debate).

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667781#Comment_120667781

What? I have no idea what you're trying to ask here. Someone said you cannot get on a plane without a passport, I said I did last Monday, got on a plane in Heathrow, did not show a passport until I got to immigration control at Dublin airport.

Not sure what all the rest of the post is for?

I'm not sure what the relevance where I was born is for?

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667455#Comment_120667455

As there's no war in the UK, that's obviously not a valid place to arrive from to claim asylum.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667823#Comment_120667823

As I've pointed out, the country doesn't need to be at war for someone to claim asylum.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667685#Comment_120667685

Just tell them ya lost it and say ya want a free house and money. Be grand. In all seriousness controls need to be in place

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667842#Comment_120667842

When is the last time someone had an asylum claim upheld for any reason that originated in the UK?

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667293#Comment_120667293

If you are fleeing torture and persecution wouldn't you settle, seek asylum in the first country you arrive in, given where is Ireland is geographically I don't think we would be first

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667870#Comment_120667870

Ah I had a feeling you would move the goalposts to this being about the UK.

It's not about the UK, it's about countries being 'at war'. A country does not have to be at war for someone to claim asylum.

Just addressing the misinformation in your OP, that's all.

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667819#Comment_120667819

First poster says: if you arrive in Ireland without a passport and try to claim International Protection, you should be deported.

Second Poster: You can’t board a plane without a passport. (This means a plane leaving from outside a common travel zone). (But you know this).

You: I got off a plane without a passport. (You traveled from Ireland to the UK, this is a common travel zone. That means that it is like travelling within your own country and you do not need a passport). (But you know this).

So, how did you get into Ireland originally?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667933#Comment_120667933

I think you need to reread the thread

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667923#Comment_120667923

I'm not moving any goalposts. There's a poster here claiming his passport wasn't required flying from London to Dublin as though this justifies people in Dublin airport without passports looking to claim asylum, I am responding by saying the UK is not a refugee producing country, so this is not germane to the conversation.

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667819#Comment_120667819

Quick follow up question:

When you realised that you did not have to show your passport, did you apply for International Protection.

If you did not, why not?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667823#Comment_120667823

Just because a plane arrives here from the UK, doesn't mean that everyone onboard is from the UK, or that their journey originated there.

Irish Aris

A bit off topic, sorry about that.

Just curious: is that thing that you can board from London to Dublin without a passport only applicable for Irish citizens?

I have a Greek passport and been living here for nearly 12 years now and have travelled many times Dublin-London-Dublin and always have to show a passport when boarding. Only advantage is arriving to London and walking straight out.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667958#Comment_120667958

It doesn't mean that it isn't carrying people out to target and abuse our asylum system either.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667954#Comment_120667954

No, you said the UK wasn't 'at war'.

I'll repeat it for you again. I'm not talking about the UK. I am talking generally. If someone wants to claim asylum, the country they are coming from does not have to be 'at war'.

A country being 'at war' is not the only criteria for someone to seek international protection.

We can go around and around in circles about the UK if you want but I quite frankly am not interested. The only bit of your post that interests me is the false notion that a country (any country, in the world, so not the UK in isolation) has to be 'at war' for someone to claim asylum and that is what I responded to.

Are you happy to admit to the fact that a country does not have to be at war for someone to claim asylum? Yes or no?

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120666878#Comment_120666878

That is a myth. There is very little link. The explosion of ethnic food predates immigration. It is based on demand, not immigrants. There are basically no Polish restaurants. While I have had amazing Greek, Italian food in Asia in cities with very few Italians or Greek.

Strumms

The number of forcibly displaced and stateless people in Europe rose to 21.8 million by the end of 2022, including almost 12.4 million refugees, 1.3 million asylum-seekers, 7.2 million internally displaced people (IDPs) and 474,000 who were stateless.

that is unsustainable.

because of the state of the world… there are around 32 conflicts from full on wars, insurgencies, ethnic conflicts, the Ukrainian situation, plus global poverty etc….the EU at some point, probably won’t but should change its immigration and protection policy. What is going on now is nutsville and completely at odds with the EU being able to enable the wellbeing of its citizens, who are its paymasters…. The EU doesn’t run on fresh air or via some global UN fund, it’s EU citizens who fund it as they and we stupidly have presumed that by inventing it, paying for it, it being on our doorstep that it should and would be OUR thing, working for OUR wellbeing and successes and on our terms.

but the opposite is happening.

Ireland and the EU will become more of a target, more of a life raft, more of a safe haven and supplier of housing, cash, healthcare, success and sanctuary.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667972#Comment_120667972

Ireland and the UK have a common travel area, UK and Irish citizens don't need a passport to travel between the two countries.

Ryanair always require to you to have a passport, other airlines do not. It's not a legal requirement, but it's just as easy to have it.

Fred Cryton

This is actually very straightforward.

We need to import more legal skilled immigrants in areas like construction. We need more workers from abroad, there's no doubt about that. But we should choose who we bring in and they should have the skills we need.

We need to deport ILLEGAL migrants who are scamming the asylum system and coming from countries the EU deems safe (such as Georgia and Albania). And anyone who destroys their documentation should be sent straight back to the airport they came from.

And we need to remove the pull / magnet effect of having much higher welfare rates for asylum seekers as well as the promise of a "turn key" house. We should not be offering any more to asylum seekers than other rich Western European states. Not a dime more.

It is so juvenile for the Greens to boast we took 80,000 migrants last year. It's like hearing someone say they managed to stuff 10 burgers into their mouth. It's not an achievement, it just shows immaturity and lack of self respect for what the nation can cope with.