Comments made re licencing a new rifle

1874

I am looking for some advice/opinions if allowable and maybe more steering me towards assistance (legal), I recal from something I saw signposted elsewhere of a solicitor in Limerick who deals with specific situations like this

Basically I applied for a specific .22lr SA rifle, of which I have another of a different make, set up now for a different competition and this new rifle is for serious national competition purposes for specific competitions (separately, I was told by someone, "you cant buy your way up the rankings", which, while I agree with that, it certainly helps if you want to do your best) . Thats unrelated from the comments Im getting. A Super insisting I should only be buying off an RFD! I pointed out there is nothing that prevents a private sale, that its on the form, but was told that's how they want it (words to that effect). I'm wondering if I should be getting legal advice as the number of firearms I own was raised, this will be 6, for which I have an appropriate required alarm in place and participate in practice and competitions.

It has on the new FCA1 form in a section, which I think is new "(3.3) acquired from private source", was that always there, It seems new? I felt like I was being brow beaten, and I dont want this to become a thing, where something that is allowable is being ridden roughshod over. In my opinion, I think a large number of sales are private owner, to private owner, typically that become known to each other through shooting. This is covered by licencing, because an existing owner has a licence, and a new owner has to apply for one! Am I missing something, is this a thing? or is there a push to make it a thing? because the Gardai authorise (the licencing body) both parties in this??

While I pointed out it's an additional cost, (meaning it's unneccessary) Im not actually that concerned about that, I think I shouldn't have said that, because I don't want them to think I wont follow this up if I'm refused. Its the insistence of buying through an RFD (which if an RFD had an item I wanted, I'd go for). No reason other than "thats how they want it" (words to that effect). Im sure this is a breach of the right of any individual to purchase any item legally (in this case with a licence) from any other individual, Im not trying to make a big deal of that aspect though, Im more concerned that what looks like if I dont cooperate with what I consider questionable practice may result in a refusal and how that looks for me, not just in future purchases! but also as an opinion of me to hold a licence. Do I go along with this?, maybe, so long as I get my licence, but just to not rock the boat (is it legal?), or do I start getting legal advice? how would that proceed? what cost am I looking at? do I strain any future dealing with the Gardai, or am I better to defend myself now (legally) and put an end to this view? While I expect public replies, Im not 100% certain if I can ask how much is legal support going to cost me and how long will it take to deal with? and will I be able to claim back my costs? answers on that privately if Im not allowed ask for that publicly.

TheEngineer1

Is the super satisfied with all other aspects of the application? If you can get that in writing, email or text will do, that the super is otherwise happy with the application then I would ignore what they're saying about the RFD and apply citing private sale anyway and insist it is processed as is.

If you get a refusal on that grounds (and insist on getting the refusal in writing) then you could explore legal advice armed with your written statement from the super.

You can't mount a legal challenge for a license refusal when you haven't been yet refused the license!

Munsterlad102

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058325980/comments-made-re-licencing-a-new-rifle

Grizzly45 would be the man to talk to for those situations and recommendations for legal council, especially in Limerick.

1874

Thanks,I'm not actually from or in Limerick,I may have made it sound like that,other side of the Country. Juat that I saw some information highlighting the legal services of a solicitors practice that deals with problems for licence holders/applications. My recollection was that they are based in Limerick.

Feisar

Personally I take the path of least resistance to get the result I want. While within your rights to purchase privately would it not be as easy get the firearm dropped into a dealers? If you buy there regularly they may not charge you. At most it'll be €50. It'll save you a lot of bother and expense talking to solicitors. I know this isn't the right approach but the most pragmatic in my opinion.

freddieot

That's one route and it works for some people, sometimes, and until the time comes when it no longer works (new Super, new requirement for a bigger calibre rifle or a mod etc.). This is just your local Super pushing in the thin edge of the wedge. If you let him then that sets your status going forward. I know you won't want to unnecessarily strain the relationship with them, nobody does, but in effect that's what they are now doing with you.

There is no legal reason why you cannot buy directly from another gun owner. That is what the law allows for quite clearly and I've both bought and sold rifles this way several times over the years. It happens every day. That's why the form allows for it.

If I understand you correctly, the local Super basically wants to make up his own new law and have you comply with it. Remember that local policy is not law.

My approach would be to ask for his comments in writing and point out that it is perfectly legal and proper to purchase a firearm from another licensed individual. You don't see the necessity to pay a dealer as an intermediary. Ask that he seek clarification from Head Office just to be sure. If you're in shooting for the long haul then this won't be the last time you get a push back, often for some ridiculous reason, and at least you may get fewer of them if they have some respect for you standing up for yourself.

Alternatively, you could go through a dealer and pay a fee. I'm on my 9th rifle, 5th shotgun and 4th handgun (not all at once) and I've never had to do that and I don't know anyone that has.

I'd sure Grizzly or one of the mods can fill you in on Solicitors in your area that specialise in appeals but it may not come to that. Sometimes just asking for any clarification in writing or asking for a reconsideration is enough.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465820#Comment_121465820

PM sent to you.

Cass

MOD HAT ON

Absolutely no legal advice is to be given. It is against the forum and site rules.

People can lay out the law and give an opinion but there is a fine line between opinion and advice so please be cognisant of the difference.

garrettod

Some food for thought, perhaps...

One individual can transfer a firearm to another, without the need to go through a RFD. Obviously it's subject to the recipient being approved for the new licence (on the firearm being transferred).

So, what's different between a firearm being "gifted" by one individual, to another, as against being sold by one individual, to another?

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121485241#Comment_121485241

I'd say there is no difference. Whether it's a gift or money changes hands is irrelevant.

Naturally the person receiving the gift has to apply for their cert in the usual way. The person giving the gift also still has to fill out the details as normal in order to transfer the firearm.

1874

Update, persistence (possibly being politely stubborn) and also friendly and useful advice, both from "Someone" here on boards and a more official opinion from someone in the know. Licence granted & received, just have to collect the rifle now, which I have agreed with the seller. It is good to familiarise yourself with the actual Law :)

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620389#Comment_121620389

Congrats!!! 😁

Cass

Congrats.

1874

I should say, politely stubborn on having the actual law applied, because I knew I wasn't doing anything contrary to the law (but I had got confirmation and advice on that).

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632051#Comment_121632051

You really mean that you stood up for your rights, and had the balls to fight the bullies, and not give in. Oh, if only everyone else was not to acquiesce to unlawful demands and stipulations, how less our burden would be.

We have already lost FB pistol, SA FB rifle, standard capacity mags for rifle and pistol, they are actively coming after lead ammo, new EU rules disallow transport of ammo, et al.

An Garda are now making demands for information (as in landowners D.O.B.), which is in contravention of Data Protection Act (adequate reasons for requiring), but our representative organisations are so quiet on this.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632361#Comment_121632361

I already find the details required for referees to be quite substantial, I was always concerned when asking a referee because their details are always present

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632436#Comment_121632436

? what ? did ? ?. Exactly, how much, you tell me or?

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632509#Comment_121632509

You mentioned about landowners being required to provide D.O.B., but reference/referees for licence applications already have to provide that, and their address, I dont think the exact DOB is needed, maybe the year. Nor do I think specifics should be on the paper hardcopy application or renewal form, it should be in the Licencing authorities records. The solution could possibly be, certain details if they arent a licence holder, but if they are a Licence Number. I'm not even convinced the owners address should be on a licence, it should be available for the Gardai to confirm from their records and cross referenced with a valid ID. A misplaced licence just leads to the location a legal firearm is kept. I guess there are bigger problems to deal with, so maybe thats one for people to raise with the Data Commissioner.

Thats all seperate to my above inquiry, thanks for all the help

Grizzly 45

Lads,I wouldn't sweat this point too much about the landowner's permission DOB.it's not a mandatory question on the form for starters so no need to pursue it if the landowner doesn't want to give it, and if someone insists on it being filled in[which they can't as it isn't mandatory info] take an educated guess or ask them[landowner] for the year of their DOB.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633682#Comment_121633682

As for the referees/landowners' permissions...Another tin of worms about to be opened?

Another interesting point regarding "lost applications" in AGS and data protection.As now two 3rd parties' information [IE their name, addresses and DOB]is involved in a firearms application has been lost, and they could be targeted if this info fell into the wrong hands. Surely they need to be now informed that AGS has lost critical and sensitive data with their name and address on it? This leaves the question are they now entitled to take a complaint to the data protection commissioner about shoddy data handling?

lefthooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633914#Comment_121633914

I raised a data handling concern during a meeting with an SI and another Garda and my god was it not at all well received.

I had an issue with a new substitute license and was called for a meeting with the SI. The meeting was an exercise in banging my head against a brick wall and as the SI abruptly ended the meeting, feeling frustrated I expressed my displeasure at having to resubmit my application after the first application had been lost or misplaced, and from what transpired during the meeting discovered that additional information and documents, as part of the application, had been lost from the second application. The SI said that paperwork is regularly misplaced and there was nothing to see here. I thought in the light of GPDR guidelines it was quite a serious concern given the details included, names, addresses, DOB's, GP's info, firearm details, locations where firearms are stored, security details etc, etc, etc,

The meeting had been tense but this was like I had detonated a nuke. I thought the SI was going to come over their desk. The SI said I was making a serious accusation and insisted there was no sensitive info involved and I must withdraw my remarks. I did. Everyone took a breath and the meeting resumed in a more constructive manner resulting in a favourable outcome.

Not saying GDPR concerns are a silver bullet but standing your ground and knowing your "rights" and commissioners guidelines certainly helps

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648094#Comment_121648094

I cant see how they considered it an accusation? if it is they who admitted that the paperwork was lost? It may be a saving grace that, them admitting it is lost within their control (ie they have it somewhere, but they just cant find it?), which is a bad enough thing to happen and worse that they don't view it as a problem. Can only hope they at least shred unnecessary hard copies (after being backed up electronically?) and they don't just throw them in a bin that can be accessed by anyone, AND that they don't store/access/process other information similarly.

I can see why going along with withdrawing a comment is necessary (but hardly right), but it is concerning to have your details with that information, essentially lost (even if it is that they have misplaced it in their own building/possession), when they on the other hand treat owners with suspicion as if they were up to no good or that licence holders may be casual or careless about dealing with or managing their own licencing/paperwork.

edit, - just thinking about it, it makes sense to have a secure online system accessible where an applicant can create a password protected account, where they could complete their application and upload required documentation, it would eliminate the possibility of documentation going missing, be a single source for accessing and highlighting upcoming renewals within an area, be easier for the Gardai to manage, access, review.

Its possible some people wouldn't want to apply online, but for those that don't surely it would be a simple task for the Gardai to deal with a reduced number of paper applications and upload that themselves. They could keep a hardcopy file locally in each region to access themselves with the number of licences and upcoming renewals should there be any temporary failure of an online system, that wouldn't necessarily require the identify or address of the licence holder (ie an account username/code), a central location could have such details (accessible by a firearms admin/processing unit) who could provide support as necessary to Gardai processing renewals/applications.

The current system doesn't appear to work effectively or efficiently, I'm not sure if that is intended, but I think the Gardai themselves have more to gain from an updated system. I think the current system makes it easier to stymie applications, it would be more transparent, but it would also make all the information more readily available to the Gardai (assigned or authorised to access it, ie it shouldn't be any and all Gardai).

lmk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648094#Comment_121648094

Guards don’t like being questioned, they’d prefer yes sir no sir 3 bags full, pity they aren’t as big and brave with other elements of society when they are “hunting” and terrorising land owners.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648094#Comment_121648094

You could have added depending on your spinal strength and testicular matter and in the nicest way possible.

"Depending on how you conduct yourself in the next few minutes, would you like a Garda Ombudsman's investigation added to your career file on a complaint for unprofessional threatening and bullying behaviour to a member of the public?" BTW you can initiate at any time I believe within 12 months of the incident. By the sound of it that SI needs one on for his unprofessional behaviour. You had him by the short& curlies and their reaction showed it.No vital information in the file....Someone needs to send them a copy of what exactly is covered in the data protection that AGS is subject to.

I know this is not a path everyone wants to go down for whatever individual reasons they might have, but like we were always old is to stand up to bullies, be they in the schoolyard or in a Garda station, esp if you have the law behind you, which you do in these cases. If you ever do find yourself in such a situation, and this is BTW a police trick to get a "rise" out of you so they can say you are not suited to own a firearm, by making the meeting very tense and unpleasant.

Simply say"Right I'm very uncomfortable with your attitude and demeanour in this meeting on this subject. I'm sure you have misplaced the file, so I'm sure you will find it within the next 48 hours and this matter will be resolved otherwise I'll be forced to involve both the Data protection commissioner and the Garda Ombudsman in this matter. Thank you for your time. This meeting is over!" And get up and walk out. Don't be bullied or rise, to their goading and attitude. Be calm, polite, and utterly chill! They are relying upon you you being intimidated by their presence, and authority and being on hostile ground to be a little supplicant begging "Please sir, can I have a gun license" If you have the law behind you and they admit to losing a highly confidential file and have a "hatitude" on top of it...The cards are in your favour.

It is both utterly sad and pathetic that we have senior officers in our police force acting in this manner with firearm applications, and using tactics more suited to an interrogation room and dealing with a criminal suspect than with a member of the public wishing to legally acquire a firearm. Maybe they consider us both in the same category? However, these kinds of incidents do not reflect well on AGS to inspire confidence in both handling sensitive data and professionalism in dealing with firearm applicants.

Grizzly 45

 cant see how they considered it an accusation. if it is they who admitted that the paperwork was lost? It may be a saving grace that, they admitting it is lost within their control (ie they have it somewhere, but they just cant find it?), which is a bad enough thing to happen and worse that they don't view it as a problem. Can only hope they at least shred unnecessary hard copies (after being backed up electronically?) and they don't just throw them in a bin that can be accessed by anyone, AND that they don't store/access/process other information similarly.

Thats almost as bad as losing it on the bus going home after work. Who had access to it while it was "misplaced" and where was it eventually found? In the Supers secretary's office where it had fallen out of their overflowing IN tray behind the radiator,or down in the day office under the duty lads' copy of the Daily newspaper where any and all might have had a read of it ? It should be by rights concerning only 4 people who have control of the documentation on this. You the applicant, your FO at your local and possibly the FO at the Div HQ, your Super[or CS] and their respective secretaries.

I cant understand why a police force that seems to have this chronic problem of" losing "firearms applications and admitted to this in the FEC recommendations hasn't done a thing to remedy this problem and considers this a minor problem not worthy of major concern.

lefthooker

I’m an argumentative bugger at the best of times and there were 2 of us jousting so the blood was warm in both of us. I’ll concede I wasn’t satisfied with how the meeting unfolded and looking back, perhaps, threw out data handling as a parting shot.

You can be the big lad all you like but feeling like you’ve got a lot to lose and as someone who doesn’t seek out trouble or confrontation with Gardai sitting in a Garda St. across from two suited members can be intimidating. It might appear cowardly but I didn’t want to show any “unsuitable characteristics”. Humility served me better, I secured a desired outcome and laid the ground for more relaxed, productive meetings to follow.

Grizzly 45

If expecting to be treated with "courtesy, civility and with fairness" As according to the AGS's own charter of customer service[as found in every station lobby] is now considered "unsuitable charisatics...Well then we have come to a pretty pass in this country...

It was a very justified parting shot too, as according to you, they had lost not only the original application but supplementary information on the renewed second attempt...What would we say about any individual in the private sector or institution that handled our sensitive data in such a cavalier fashion and with such a dismissive attitude? So why should we put up with this from a public body that has the responsibility of not only protecting and serving us,but even insists we don't advertise we have firearms as much as possible in everyday life?

garrettod

Has anyone contacted the Data Protection Commission, and seperately, the DOJ, about the additional information now being requested on applications?

If so, what has been the response, please?

Better yet, has anyone asked their representative organisation to question it?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671033#Comment_121671033

DoJ have stated that it is a Garda initiative as to the change on forms.

DPC and rep orgs I dunno.

I have learned that GSOC(the garda ombudsman) will look into shenanigans with service delivery by AGS, including lost applications, delays etc.