The new recycling system

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121726628#Comment_121726628

Well they are all business people so we'd be naive to expect that they wouldn't be looking out for their own interests.

If there were reductions in fees it wouldn't make any difference to the consumer as long as they weren't paying more.

Things like staff party and marketing are just part of the cost of doing business.

Career opportunities are a bit of a red herring. If the thing goes well would anyone be surprised to see the CEO moving onward and upward in a few years ?

I think their whole reputation will stand or fall on the interface with the public.

They have got off to a bad start and need to steady the ship and get the system working properly.

All this uncertainty does not suit the shops or the customers.

This is more important than the financials.

Genghis

@elperello I agree with everything there.

What could be an impact of a poor launch is a slower trajectory, i.e. it may look like the targets may not be met in time. Say it's 2026 and we are tracking to 85% not 90% by 2029. This slower take up is resulting in 100m deposits retained by re-take p.a. or €20m "plan surplus".

What recourse then? Double deposits (make consumers pay more) and use the €20m banked revenue from slower take up on marketing this as 'good for us all'. Lower producer fees and / or increase retailer collection fees because of the higher deposit revenue re-take can't retain.

That would be one way a poor performance by re-turn could be overcome without any real world cost to re-turn, and have them achieve target. Good for producers (lower fees), good for retail (more fees), bad for consumers (but screw them, they should've played ball).

There should be an incentive to avoid this sort of scenario (maybe there is).

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121726891#Comment_121726891

Once they get over the spluttering start and get it running smoothly I think most will go along with it.

Nobody likes loosing money so they will play along.

The ultimate success of the scheme will be if it fades into the background and nobody is talking about it.

A few per cent either way on targets won't worry anybody.

Vestiapx

I have bought items.s with no r on them

I have been charged the deposit

The barcode checker is saying the items are invalid

This means that the cans will not work in the rvm

Am.i sussposed to bring the cand tk tbe shop I bought them.in to demand a refund?

It's all a bit confrontational

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727341#Comment_121727341

Yes.

The shop took your money.

There need'nt be any confrontation as long as they pay up.

Keep your receipt.

Also you might try them in an RVM first just in case they work.

Vestiapx

I'd assume that the database for the rvm is amthe same database for the machines

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727383#Comment_121727383

I would have thought so too but with all the messing going on so far I wouldn't take it for granted.

thesandeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121725237#Comment_121725237

Which machines have the reject slots? None of the machines I've come across have one. They all just have the one hole where you stick it in and hope for the best.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727341#Comment_121727341

Never mind the data base, it's a shít lotto. You have to haul ass to the RVM, if it accepts it, great, if it doesn't. Tough.

You can try going up to a cashier but they more than likely won't process trash. Because they are not obliged to or setup to do so.

Also do we really want cashiers handling waste before they scan your food?

I certainly don't.

BoardsBottler

i was walking to a local shop yesterday and noticed quite alot of cans every so often along the way (all damaged unfortunately) . And could'nt help but wonder to myself: "how does this new recycling scheme make the environment cleaner if no one is going to pick up the discarded cans/bottlers that are damaged?" and when i come to think of it, we're literally just hoping that the people who throw cans out of window, we're just blindly hoping they don't crush the cans before discarding, or even damaging the cans in the process of throwing it out the window.

The thing the CEO was saying about "someone else can pick them up and redeem them" really only applies if we are lucky enough for the can to be undamged, and if it lands on the grass.

The chances of cans being undamaged from people that discard them i feel are very little, and alot of people get into the habbit of squeezing the cans for some reason before throwing it aside.

Return are being really fussy with not accepting damaged cans.

how do you feel about all this? and do you feel re-turn should be willing to accept damaged cans as long as the logo is visible? if the answer is yes then i can imagine how the streets would actually be cleaner.

JDxtra

Unfortunately, this whole scheme has really turned me off recycling in general.

I am already putting less in my blue/green bin. Why should I waste my hot water, my time, my energy washing something out for recycling? Chances are it’ll end up in landfill anyway. If our recycling collection was any good, we should not need this system at all.

This scheme unfairly punishes those who already did recycle everything possible

Genghis

I was in a SuperValu yesterday, bank holiday Monday.

I checked the fridges selling 'on the gob' drinks and could see only one product (lucozade drink) with a deposit label. There were a few shelves empty or close to empty, so it looks to me like retailers are running down lines to zero before restocking line by line with new (as opposed to dual sticking).

I also noticed their RVM, located in the car park, was shuttered closed for some reason (no notice up as to why).

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727625#Comment_121727625

The Aldi near me does.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121725237#Comment_121725237

This is one of the issues I've said for a long time - whatever about the DRS - there simply aren't enough public recycle bins in this country - they would be used if they were. Accompany them with an education campaign and enforcement of litter laws and you've a greatly enhanced system that hasn't cost millions or annoyed those that recycle already.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727881#Comment_121727881

it may be possible that their stock share the same barcode as non-logo stock that could be why, so to prevent people from redeeming what does'nt have a deposit/logo on it. They're gonna re-stock eventully with fully logo stock instead of duel stocking. if this is true its possible re-turn advised them of this so no one would be getting deposits on things they did not pay a deposit on

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727869#Comment_121727869

Yip. Not only are people who pay a flat monthly fee for their blue / green getting robbed but they have to jump through hoops to minimize their losses. Completely backward and insulting scheme. All stick no carrot.

People can shout about the environment all they want. Its a kick in the teeth and now on top of all that the roll out is a confusing mess. Pathetic really.

thomas 123

Bit of a disastrous launch it seem - prices up overnight for soft drinks etc but not able to return the bottle to redeem deposit.

I’ve noticed all lucozade products can be returned but none of them have the return logo.

thomas 123

I also noticed my local Lidl has a notice up saying take rejected items away with you - they do have a recycle bin passed the tills but you can’t access that without going shopping and checking out.

to clarify they have no recycle bin beside the RVM.

bog master

I am not in favour of this non-necessary scheme, the roll out has been disastrous. What should have been done in my opinion if we have to have this quango.

Extensive media campaign to explain the system.

Announce on Feb. 1st -NO deposits will be charged say until 1st March.

HOWEVER- All RVM's will be operative from 1st Feb. and accepting cans and bottles, Not issuing credit, but allowing for people to use the machine and get the feel of how it works.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121727869#Comment_121727869

Chances are it’ll end up in landfill anyway.

Chances are zero that clean segregated material will end up in landfill.

It has a commercial value and will be sold to part fund the Return scheme.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728043#Comment_121728043

Those bins after checkout in Lidl are provided so that customers can remove excess packaging from goods they have just bought.

A good initiative by Lidl and not intended to be used for bringing cans back to the shop.

JDxtra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728113#Comment_121728113

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22322238/

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728202#Comment_121728202

That's the sort of thing that Return was set up to prevent.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728214#Comment_121728214

They have no way to process the waste at that scale, particularly the plastic.

It will end up exported, burnt and landfilled just like what is happening now.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728226#Comment_121728226

What can't be sold in Ireland will be exported.

None of it will be landfilled or incinerated because it has a higher value for recycling.

Simple economics.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728245#Comment_121728245

It costs more to recycle plastic than create new plastic.

Simple economics.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728254#Comment_121728254

Recycling plastic is a profitable business.

You probably know that anyway.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728043#Comment_121728043

Presumably the public will just leave rejected containers there anyway. This is Lidl's baby too, they have their eyes on increasing their turnover, let them sort out any resulting mess with the quango. Maybe Mr.Foley himself will go around in the company car and pick it all up.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728293#Comment_121728293

Recycling is an energy-intensive process that becomes more costly as additional steps such as post-consumer selection and washing are added.

The new plastic is still relatively cheap to produce and creates a competitive environment in which added costs to the process make recycled plastic significantly more expensive. Furthermore, in countries where the price of electricity is high, it might be more profitable to incinerate instead of recycling. 

Also an environmental cost.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/24/recycled-plastic-more-toxic-no-fix-pollution-greenpeace-warns

Now when Green Man comes back in a decade to tell you, you were doing it wrong again, you will be jumping up and down to comply, won't you?

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121728104#Comment_121728104

I would have done that too, but had a token credit, say 5c per item during Feb.

Everything would be accepted as long as it met shape guidelines, etc (barcodes not checked, or all allowed, or only used to confirm it's a PET ) can.

The token credit would mean more engagement plus let people trial the full process from RVM to cashout. Would also mean re-takes operations could get up to speed, and the items collected would help with the all important stats for year 1, "off to a flying start", etc

Then as you say 1 Mar, deposit 100% charged, but also barcodes with logo (or international) will be only accepted at RVM, payable at 15c / 25c.

Let's say they took in 250m items during Feb, that would cost €12.5m, spend another €5m on marketing, contingency €2.5m. This one off spend of €20m, funded by Govt., would buy a smooth start and ensure accelerated take up.

Instead we have an over-long transition period, bad PR from day one, chopping and changing of policy, unhappy first experience for many if not most consumers, worn out retailers trying to manage all the complexity, and extended uncertainty about what is and is not in the scheme.

Some low volume consumers may be saying they will not bother again, e.g. if you live alone and use only 3 or 4 items a week, you may not be bothered a second time if you had a bad first, and this could impede long term success.