More licensing restrictions?

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121476498#Comment_121476498

Again, I don't disagree. They were quick to change the form to include bullsh*t such as mag capacity, etc. but no one thought how to apply for a restricted firearm (nv scope) at the same time as an unrestricted firearm (actual gun).

Does that now entail two separate applications and double payment (one for the rifle, one for the scope)?.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121476596#Comment_121476596

Where in Section 3?. Am looking at 1925 Act, revised up to Aug 1st 2023.

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/1925/act/17/front/revised/en/html

Cass

If you're looking for the word onus, you won't find it. It's a word I use.

All of section 3 relates to criteria needed for an application and consequences for providing false or misleading information.

slipperyox

There are 4 canons of taxation.

Go try to vrt particular vehicles.... and see the convoluted mess that ensues.

It's all done on ambiguity, and on purpose for the states benefit.

cf this!

keith s

So, I have the NV scope and the new Restricted license for it (last year (rightly or not) I just got autherization on every rifle I wanted to use it on).

This year, I completed a separate FAC1 for the NV. Included valid reasons and the make, model + serial number of the scope.

I then completed the renewal for the rilfe and ticked the Sights box on that.

The rifle is not restricted, but I am authorised to use the NV on that rifle, where the NV is licensed and restricted.

So, I am licensed to use a firearm with a restricted firearm attached (where's the emoji for crazy face?).

Anyway hope that clears up the question about the firearm licence being non restricted while attaching a restricted firearm to that firearm.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477403#Comment_121477403

That seems the most sensible way to handle it. It’s not that complicated.

same way if somebody was licensed to use restricted ammo, they could do so in their unrestricted firearm - for example

freddieot

I don't beleive that's correct. You can't use restricted ammo in an unrestricted firearm.

If you have two shotguns for example, one restricted and one unrestricted, you could only use slugs in the restricted shotgun.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477665#Comment_121477665

The cert is specific to each firearm.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477851#Comment_121477851

We may be entering very hypothetical areas here. Because I do think restricted ammo lic. are handed out easily.

But restricted licenses are specific, as you said. A restricted shotgun license is for that shotgun, it’s not permission to buy slugs (or grenades). By that logic a license to use slugs is specific to slugs.

There no law that I’m aware of that says can't use restricted ammo in an unrestricted firearm. But maybe I’m

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477936#Comment_121477936

Handed out easily? I've never heard of a restricted ammo license. Didn't know they existed.

If you want to use slugs, which are restricted ammunition, then you must possess a restricted license. The only license I know that is mark restricted is a firearms license.

As there is no restricted ammunition license solely to allow you have the ammo, you must apply for a restricted firearms license. So you could not use slugs in an unrestricted firearm.

freddieot

I'm fairly sure there is nothing hypothetical. On the back of the cert (the conditions), it clearly states 'ammunition therefor'.

Therefor (not therefore) clearly indicates 'for it or for that' in this context. In other words for that firearm specified on the cert and not for another one.

Ammunition in it's own right is not a firearm under any definition. Not sure previsely how RFDs operate but you can't get a firearms licence, restricted or otherwise for ammunition unless you own a firearm.

otmmyboy2

You can get an authorisation to collect ammunition, ie for the purposes of a display.

This can cover both restricted and unrestricted ammunition.

You can also have an unrestricted shotgun licenced concurrently with the above authorisation.

However, if you use restricted ammunition in an unrestricted firearm it becomes a restricted firearm for the purpose of using restricted ammunition, ie you cannot use restricted ammunition in a firearm not licenced to use such ammunition.

Same as inserting a >10 round magazine into a Category B firearm makes it a Category A firearm.

An unrestricted shotgun cannot use restricted ammunition, and anyone who wishes to use, for example, slugs, needs to have a restricted firearms licence for the firearm in which to use those slugs.

A restricted shotgun licence however does allow you to purchase and use restricted ammunition in that firearm, ie slugs.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478107#Comment_121478107

Typo above, was supposed to say NOT handed out easily. By not easily, I don't know if they are handed out at all for that purpose. But legally the pathway exists. I haven't suggested that a restricted license was not required for slugs.

As there is no restricted ammunition license solely to allow you have the ammo, you must apply for a restricted firearms license. So you could not use slugs in an unrestricted firearm.

Correct, you mush possess a restricted license for slugs. But the sentence in bold is not a logical conclusion from that. You can possess a restricted license and a unrestricted license concurrently. A restricted license can also authorise the use of restricted items as required. I don't believe any law says otherwise, but I could be wrong. I'm going from memory and have not memorised the act.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478501#Comment_121478501

I would assume that an authorisation to collect is specific to collection and would not imply an authorise to use said ammo.

However, if you use restricted ammunition in an unrestricted firearm it becomes a restricted firearm for the purpose of using restricted ammunition, ie you cannot use restricted ammunition in a firearm not licenced to use such ammunition.

It becomes a restricted firearm and requires a restricted license. I haven't suggest otherwise. But I am suggesting that restricted license issued for restricted ammo, could contain authorisation for use as required. Exactly as per @keith s restricted license for his NV unit.

ie you cannot use restricted ammunition in a firearm not licenced to use such ammunition.

Licenses are issued to persons for firearms, firearms themselves are permitted to be used within the terms a license.

Same as inserting a >10 round magazine into a Category B firearm makes it a Category A firearm.

A magazine is an integral part of a firearm, and one of the criteria that defines restriction. So a mag changes an unrestricted firearm into a restricted and a new license is obvious required. The wording of the SI does not treat ammo the same way as far as I am aware. If the firearm is authorised, and the ammo is authorised, then they can be authorised for use together. Again, as per the NV above.

Cass

I'm not going to waste time trying to multi-quote stuff because it's a pain in the ass trying to do it with the mobile.

You said above that restricted ammo license(s) are handed out easy. You say it was a typo, fair enough as its not germane to my point.

What is a restricted ammo license? Never heard of one. Is is a "stand alone" license comparable to the NV license where it can be gotten without be attached to a license for a firearm?

There are restricted firearm licenses which allow you to buy the requisite restricted ammunition but I've never heard of a restricted ammunition license.

Hypothetical scenario;

You purchase a restricted firearm, and apply for the requisite restricted license. This now entitles you to buy restricted ammunition such as slugs. You already hold an unrestricted shotgun on an unrestricted license. So now you have both a restricted license and unrestricted license.

You take the unrestricted shotgun along with the restricted ammunition (slugs) and use the unrestricted shotgun to fire the slugs.

Your belief is that this is legal?

It's an interesting concept. My initial reaction is no, cannot be done, but upon thinking about it, I don't know. The restricted license allows you to be in possession and use the restricted ammo. The unrestricted license allows you to be in possession and use the unrestricted firearm. As the ammo is "tied" to the firearm solely for purchasing it, and you would in fact be in possession of all the relevant licenses, I cannot see how any laws would be broken.

I suppose it's akin to having (example) two licenses for the same caliber firearms with a combined ammo allowance of say 500 (250 on each). Would you be in breach of your license if you were out with only one firearm but the full allowance of both licenses (all 500).

The law does not, as far as I know or remember, demand that the firearm to which the ammo relates be used or even carried when in possession of the ammo. If you catch my meaning. Only that the requisite firearms license be held to purchase, possess, or use the ammo.

Interesting!

However the NV scenario is not the same in my opinion. You need a separate and "stand alone" license (which can be gotten) to own NV stuff regardless of whether you own a firearm or not.

Unless there is such a thing as a stand alone license in the same vein for ammo (as asked about above) then you must get a restricted firearms license for the firearm which allows you to buy the restricted ammo. The firearm and ammo are symbiotic. A NV license does not need a firearms license as the NV has its own license (again if you follow my drift).

My head hurts, it's late. To be continued 😁🥱

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478188#Comment_121478188

Well, unless somebody puts in a application for restricted ammo, it is very much hypothetical, which was my meaning.

And yes, on a license it says that. And permits you to buy ammo (but not restricted ammo obviously) for that firearm. I not suggesting people can buy what they want.

Not sure precisely how RFDs operate but you can't get a firearms licence, restricted or otherwise for ammunition unless you own a firearm.

I don't believe that is correct. As mentioned above, you can be authorised to collect ammo. Some poster here used to. This means being able to purchase ammo. So the legal pathway exists. I'm saying that pathway could be used if the powers that be wished. I saying that's an easy argument to win with a Chief super however.

freddieot

Still not seeing hypothetical anywhere, on the back of the cert is says 'ammunition therefor'.

The ammunition allowed is, due to that wording, for that firearm only. This is a condition on the cert.

As regards two certs for the same calibre,if you have two .22s for example with 500 rounds on each licence then the total ammo you can have in your possession is 1000. You can carry all of them with you even if you only have one of your 22s with you, or neither firearm, as the ammo is still

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481513#Comment_121481513

in your possession legally.

If you own a restricted and an unrestricted shotgun there is nothing to stop you carrying slugs either, even if you are not carrying the restricted shotgun. However, I still maintain that you cannot use them in the unrestricted firearm. Possession is different from usage.

I know people can be authorised to collect ammo, agent of a dealer for example. DHL collect ammo as well. However, I see no mechanism for anyone to get authority or be certified to possess any ammunition for their own use unless they are granted an actual firearms cert. If I'm wrong, and it would not be the first time, then can you explain the process.

Mellor

I'm not going to waste time trying to multi-quote stuff because it's a pain in the ass trying to do it with the mobile.

Yeah, can only be bother to do it on the laptop. The mobile site is pretty clunky since the switch.

You said above that restricted ammo license(s) are handed out easy. You say it was a typo, fair enough as its not germane to my point.

As I said originally, it's all very hypothetical.  Because I do not think they are handed out easily, if at all. (missing word included this time 😉)

There are restricted firearm licenses which allow you to buy the requisite restricted ammunition ...

You purchase a restricted firearm, and apply for the requisite restricted license. This now entitles you to buy restricted ammunition such as slugs.

That's how I understood it, but not having a restricted shotgun license, I don't know the ammo condition printed on a normal license is handled. as an aside, Does this cover all restricted ammo? Are restricted license holder approved (on paper only) all categories listed in paragraph (5)?

You take the unrestricted shotgun along with the restricted ammunition (slugs) and use the unrestricted shotgun to fire the slugs.

Your belief is that this is legal?

No, that's not quite what I was saying. My initial reaction would be the same as you and that it can't be done. But I completely agree with your logic there, and can't see what laws would be broken.

I was suggesting that a person could be authorised to uses them in that firearm. And yes I believe that authorisation would require a separate firearms certificate. In that way, like how a shooter is authorised to use a restricted NV unit.

That would of course require the powers that be to agree that you have a reason to use them. A whole other game that.

Unless there is such a thing as a stand alone license in the same vein for ammo (as asked about above) then you must get a restricted firearms license for the firearm which allows you to buy the restricted ammo.

A separate license would seem easiest. It's also possible that such a license would cause N/A errors "on the system".

Imagine the alterative scenario. Shooter goes to the the Super, explains his situation and his "good reason" for needing slugs. Super agrees with him, wants to authorise it, but can't unless the guy buys a restricted shotgun. Shooter points out that he doesn't need a pistol grip, a high capacity mag, a telescopic stock and that his trusty single barrel will do the job well. But Supers hands are tied, he has no ability to license it unless by buys a shotgun with those "higher risk" features he doesn't need. It would surprise me if it were that convoluted.

I suppose it's akin to having (example) two licenses for the same caliber firearms with a combined ammo allowance of say 500 (250 on each). Would you be in breach of your license if you were out with only one firearm but the full allowance of both licenses (all 500).

That's another kettle of fish. Is it confirmed anywhere that the amounts accumulate like that? Seems logical, but the wording is tricky.

Cass

You missed a bit of my previous post where I ask about restricted ammo license(s). Are they a thing, where are they gotten, and how do you apply for one?

With regard to applying for a restricted shotgun license just for the ammo, you don't have to go for a firearm with all those features.

At the risk of being pedantic you firstly have to go to the Chief Super as the Super cannot issue any restricted license. You could seek a restricted license on a single barrel and explain that you wish to use slugs and as they are restricted ammunition you need the restricted license. The firearm doesn't have to have pistol grip, etc. as these are all feature that make a firearm restricted but are not prerequisites.

The central point here, to me, is this restricted ammo license you refer to. I still don't understand it as I've never heard off one or seen one. If this sort of licence exists then it changes things in that you could possibly have a restricted ammo license for the ammo and unrestricted firearms license for the firearm but as I believe there is no such thing as a separate ammo license (restricted or otherwise) that allows not only the possession but the use of said ammo then it's an exercise in fantasy, to a degree, for a scenario that can never happen.

By the way if authorisation exists for collectors to have spent or even live ammo in their possession I would love to know if this allows the use of said ammo or merely just collection of it plus what form that collection/use takes.

I believe and such authorisation would fall far short or the same authorisation granted through a firearms license to use/possess ammo.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481690#Comment_121481690

As above, I wasn't suggested a restricted firearm certificate is a free pass to use that ammo in any firearm, although as per Cass's post that thought is not without logic. I'm saying that the pathway exists for somebody to be authorised to use restricted ammo in itself. Also why I said hypothetical.

Apologies if that wasn't clear.