Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

Flinty997

Harrys great and makes some good points. But...

Bit of context, To save money hes buying a €150k diesel Range Rover Sport. A model that has been until recently almost uninsurable in the UK, and used prices have tanked. Whatever about the lastest on not suffering from the same issue. The brand has taken a kicking.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/panic-over-insurance-causes-prices-of-used-jaguar-land-rover-models-to-tumble/294501

Most EVs users rarely fast chargering. Even Harry has a (slow) overnight charger. Won't be many people choosing to pay rapid charge prices on a regular basis. Even on Bjorn's records, a car thats been hammered with rapid charging is an outlier.

You can see Harrys home charger in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEyfCcAbtKU&ab_channel=Harry%27sgarage

In fairness he tried a BEV, even though it was completely unsuitable for his use.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751267#Comment_121751267

The determining factor for charging more or less for an electric vehicle should be mileage, similar to internal combustion engine cars. However, if we start testing batteries extensively, it could lead to dealers aggressively controlling how people use their new cars and negatively impact the second-hand car market. Since there is no engine test for ICE cars, there should be no battery test for EVs. Treating EVs the same as ICE cars is crucial; otherwise, potential buyers may hesitate due to concerns about their value diminishing after 3-4 years following a battery test. Currently, EVs already face significant depreciation. Instead of focusing solely on range, we should educate the public that large battery EVs are not always necessary.

I haven't done enough research into secondhand EV values to give you an accurate answer. It could be that all cars are suffering heavy depreciation at the moment due to over inflated new car prices in 2023 before the price drops. I don't know. I'm just looking at my own cars and how much they have tanked in a year.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756433#Comment_121756433

It's solely not mileage for ICE cars either. Since 200k on a motorway is very different to a taxi driving around a city doing 200k.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752156#Comment_121752156

The EV market is not declining. It’s just that people are short of cash right now, and this is not the first time this has happened, as any old Leaf owners would tell you. It’s a normal market adjustment.

The UK YouTubers have a big influence on the public perception of EVs in the UK and Ireland. People tend to believe what they say without doing their own research. But did anyone actually check the battery degradation figures? They are quite reasonable, in my opinion. I don’t agree with everything he says. Harry is not a fan of EVs. He claims he is, but he’s really a petrol head at heart.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756433#Comment_121756433

Sorry don't agree with this. Battery health is the primary reason people are nervous of used EVs. Why not allay their concerns? Why would manufacturers not just provide this information as part of the cars software? Christ you are bombarded with information on every aspect of the battery these days but for some reason the SOH has become a carefully guarded secret. Why?

I also don't get the view....well if we don't do it for ICEs we shouldn't do it for EVs. As EV supporters are at pains to constantly emphasise, ICE is dinosaur technology. Can't have it both ways. Time to move on

Flinty997

EVs have a battery warranty. So if in general (differs between manufacturers and cars) the battery falls below a certain level before a certain mileage within a certain number of years it gets replaced under warranty.

More explanation here on batteries.

https://youtu.be/r1BBNJDnkTQ?si=IlJqFwpis0o-wPx9

Problem most will not want to get past their preconceived ideas to listen or understand.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756601#Comment_121756601

We have reporting standards via the OBD port for ICE vehicles, Euro 7 introduces a requirement for battery durability reporting, I agree that it's only good for the consumer to have this information made available.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756601#Comment_121756601

As a buyer, I appreciate the concept of grading electric vehicles based on battery performance. However, we must also consider the perspective of sellers. Imagine visiting a dealership after three years of owning an EV, only to receive a lowball offer due to battery degradation. While the intention behind grading is to encourage battery improvements, we shouldn’t penalize buyers. The automotive industry already faces challenges with dealerships selling cars without a clear plan for repurchasing them after three years, especially in the case of EVs. If we implement a grading system at the end of an EV’s initial three-year life cycle, it could lead to significant issues for both EVs and their buyers in the future. As a buyer, I see the merit, but as a seller, I strongly oppose this approach.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757052#Comment_121757052

Who is getting low ball offers due to degradation? Not heard of that. Have you any links?

People are currently getting low offers primarily because of a price war and economic conditions. Manufacturers slashing prices is going to have an effect on used car sales and prices.

Of course FUD by the media is going to feed into that. As are govt policy changes.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757052#Comment_121757052

So you want to have your cake and eat it? As an EV owner I would like to have an SOH report provided by dealer at each service so I can be satisfied that the battery degradation is in line with industry norms and any significant deviations can be investigated in a timely fashion. Is this too much to ask for from the technological tour de force that is now an EV?

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757115#Comment_121757115

"Who is getting lowball offers due to degradation? Not heard of that. Have you any links?"

This is hypothetical. Read it again.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757162#Comment_121757162

Consider this example: In late 2022, I purchased a one-year-old internal combustion engine car from Audi. Within a month, I discovered that something wasn't right with the rear driveshaft. I sold the car to another dealer, didn't mention the issue, and like Audi, they cleaned it up and put it back out for sale.

You're placing EVs in a distinct category, emphasizing the need to evaluate them based on their usage patterns. However, the ultimate solution lies in manufacturers taking better control over battery degradation. Your point about wanting to have your cake and eat it too is spot-on; there shouldn’t be different standards for EVs compared to internal combustion engine cars. Speaking of which, I’ve always found second-hand ICE cars to be problematic. It seems that whenever I purchased a used ICE car in the past, there was an undisclosed issue lurking beneath the surface. Unfortunately, there’s no convenient sticker on the windshield warning, ‘This car has a faulty fuel pump.’

It’s a case of double standards.

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of manufacturers to ensure that EV batteries meet high standards. As others have pointed out, battery warranties exist precisely for this purpose.

Ev fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752156#Comment_121752156

Just to add some qualification on the above statements

1. Recent studies have suggested that fast charging is only a small contributor to battery degradation. Normal ageing and no. Of charging cycles seem to have a more significant impact. Current analysis is that you should expect not much more than 10% degradation in up to 8 years (provided the battery is generally looked after.2. EVs use their energy very efficiently- 95% - ICE is around 25% so don't understand the context of this. 3. Higher insurance is a particular UK thing in that insurers as a whole had to reset premia Higher for both ICE and EVs. There was though a particular issue with Tesla owners as repair costs were deemed to be high. 4. Depreciation is true given the Chinese and a lot of other competing brands are hitting the market. It does appear that battery prices are dropping significantly and since they are up to 40% of an EV's cost - it is likely that EV pricing will get closer to ICE pricing sooner than was originally thought.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757498#Comment_121757498

What has a past problem with an increasingly defunct old technology got to do with seeking a very basic piece of information about the performance of EV batteries? What's important in terms of EV performance has absolutely no bearing on what was demanded/provided for ICEs in the past. Time to throw off the yoke of the past.

You would think there is something to hide here

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757851#Comment_121757851

There is an underlying issue here, and that’s precisely my concern. When someone purchases an electric vehicle and opts for frequent fast charging over four years, the repercussions extend to the next buyer—albeit temporarily. The responsibility lies with car manufacturers to enhance battery technology, minimizing degradation as much as possible. As I’ve emphasized before, penalizing buyers for battery wear and tear opens a Pandora’s box. Dealers across the country would inevitably undervalue trade-in prices once again. Consider this scenario: I buy a Volkswagen EV, and after three years, 10% of the battery capacity has diminished. Meanwhile, another individual walks in with the same model, but their battery has lost 15% capacity. The dealer offers me €20,000 for my car, yet extends only €15,000 to the other person. Ultimately, the second buyer has little control over this discrepancy. This trend could escalate, leaving only the exceptionally well-maintained EVs—those your grandmother drove to the local shops once a week—retaining significant value. In essence, grading EVs becomes an impractical endeavor. You're giving dealers too much control and you have to think about how you would feel trading in your EV with a looming battery test on the horizon before jumping into your next car.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758800#Comment_121758800

Do you drive an ICE? Can you send me a quick engine health update? I'm thinking fuel pump, starter motor, and alternator.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758770#Comment_121758770

I'm am bit taken aback here as I think you're saying that as an EV owner the trade in value of the new car buyer must be protected to the detriment of a more comprehensive knowledge of the battery health for a used EV buyer. Its no wonder those who are not already enlightened are considering sticking with ICE.

Seriously I can't understand why an unbiased person would consider that an EV with a better quality battery shouldn't attract a higher trade in value that one with a poorer battery. If the original owner wants to treat the battery like shoite that's OK, the industry should hide this fact from all subsequent owner(s). And people criticised VW for the emissions scandal🤣

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758850#Comment_121758850

It's something I expect all ICE cars to have before I go and buy one so I can lowball the seller and offer them nothing for their car.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758857#Comment_121758857

While ICE engines don’t undergo specific “health” tests, there’s growing interest in the media about assessing the condition of EV batteries. However, this approach can indeed be challenging for EV owners looking to sell their cars down the line. Unlike phones or appliances, EVs are valuable assets, and grading them solely based on battery health might overlook the broader context of vehicle wear and tear. After all, even traditional car engines experience degradation over time. When purchasing a used EV, it’s essential to recognize that the battery won’t perform as well as when it was new—a reality consistent with the history of car engines.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758770#Comment_121758770

Degredation is another name for wear, it's just this kind of wear is new. When we look at mileage on a car of any type, that's a proxy for wear - we can see how intensively it has been used over a given period of time. A petrol car driver will be offered less for their trade in if it has high mileage and no one thinks it unfair. Some cars have poor reliability and that also impacts trade values - again no one thinks it unfair.

EVs wear differently to other types of car so they should also provide a method to quantify it. State of health should be available in the infotainment system as well as all the other faults in the computer. I think all cars should read out all the faults on the OBD system on the infotainment screen regardless of fuel type.

Hiding these facts from the consumer will only make them trust you less.

The anti EV press though is interesting because some of it seems to be relatively organic. You get the independent reviewers online having a go because it's both good for clicks but they also seem inherently biased against them. On the latter I suspect that's because there is inherently little to differentiate drivetrains between EVs. You put the foot down, and it goes - quickly. They have little by way of "character". I.e. the drivetrain is as refined as it can be and there's not much to say about it anymore. There are many of the online reviewers that are simply car enthusiasts but are poor reviewers since they let their obvious biased shine through

The UK press though is a different beast and appears to be organised around both the culture wars and other agendas. While it's also good for clicks it seems to be motivated too by a desire to stall the market.

The Irish press has been reluctant to engage in the typical culture war stuff that's been going on but seems happy to weigh in on EVs strangely enough. Maybe this is because it's a relatively safe target, no one is going to get too upset if some middle class car owners suffer elevated depreciation.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757323#Comment_121757323

If it's a hypothetical I won't read it and will ignore it.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758900#Comment_121758900

I appreciate your perspective. Quantifying the health of electric vehicles (EVs) can indeed be challenging due to limited available data. While I’ve had positive experiences with EVs myself, noticing minimal issues apart from tire wear, I remain hesitant regarding battery grading. Ultimately, I believe that test driving a car remains a crucial factor for buyers in making an informed decision. Don't let the dealer value your car battery. He will lowball it and the first given opportunity.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758930#Comment_121758930

Battery testing is hypothetical so my point about sellers being lowballed for high battery degradation is also hypothetical.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758957#Comment_121758957

The problem with that approach is that you won't be rewarded for looking after your battery and will be low balled anyway because the dealer will say sure I've no idea how healthy your battery is so will have to discount the trade in to compensate for unknown risk.

It doesn't matter anyway because it's only matter of time before manufacturers are mandated to provide this information to owners. As I said before if I can get the Leaf battery SOH using a free app available on Google Store its a nonsense to be arguing that this information should be hidden from owners of EVs that are light years more advanced than the Leaf

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759011#Comment_121759011

I get your point about healthy batteries not being rewarded and maybe that is how we can improve the value of secondhand EVs in the future.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758978#Comment_121758978

Battery testing, is not hypothetical in the sense you can do it, and find a problem and repair it.

But any car past the warranty of the battery will not be under the main dealer network. They won't be taking it in as a trade in, or being low balled.

Anyone who wants a 10 year old, high mileage EV would want to know how to test the battery. Or buy from an EV specialist.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759376#Comment_121759376

On your first point, you're completely mincing my words and misinterpreting what I originally said back in #273.

I agree with you on the second point. Testing batteries that have expired warranties is not a big deal. The real issue is with newer cars, especially those that use PCP finance. It's possible the dealer will only give the guaranteed minimum future value of the car, and nothing else if the battery condition does not satisfy the dealer’s standards. Like with mileage limits on PCP's, they will make this impossible to achieve.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760431#Comment_121760431

You have it backwards. On a car in warranty the dealer doesn't care, its covered by warranty. It usually mileage or age.

If you have an failing battery on a car out of warranty its a bigger deal.

That said, the reason you don't see many battery repairs or swaps is because its rare. Its also why some manufactures can offer longer longer warranties on EVs.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760489#Comment_121760489

And if battery testing becomes a thing it will be mileage, age and battery health. The dealers will take advantage of this and penalise you for every percent the battery is below whatever made up limit they put on it. I'm sorry but this system has too many holes in it and only benefits dealers and second hand car buyers. New car owners are the ones that will suffer once they try and trade in their car after 3 years.

Anyway. I'm repeating myself at this stage. Lot's to think about.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761294#Comment_121761294

Battery durability reporting is being introduced anyway, it's in the interest of consumers buying used cars and owners who are maintaining their cars. I don't think your approach to hide the state of a critical component of your vehicle because you're fearful of a dealer giving you less for your car compared to a same model that's in better condition is valid.

Dealer trade-ins are about getting you in to a new vehicle and getting another car they can resell. That doesn't change just because they have access to information that accurately reflects the state of the vehicle. The dealer isn't out to screw their customer, they are in the business of selling you cars.