Will Hurling separate from the GAA to form its own body sooner rather than later?

PeggyShippen

Lads it's as plain as the nose on your face. The GAA is a gaelic football organisation.

NJSC1980

This has been a short lived league format and a reversion back to a 2012-2019 style tiered 1A / 1B with one extra team per group is effectively an admission that the changes made for 2020 were a mistake. Lack of promotion on their part reflective of their own level of faith in the present format.

evolvingtipperary101

I think next year will be 100 years of the hurling league... the opening game should be a big match - ideally a repeat of the all-Ireland final of 2024 - maybe even have cork v dublin to recreate the first ever league final as a pre game in Croke Park - fireworks and band pre-match ... - what will hurling get?

evolvingtipperary101

Great journalism here:

Maurice Brosnan: The Cavan hurlers are still fighting (irishexaminer.com)

gormdubhgorm

I was thinking the last day that the hurling part of the show on League Sunday. The analysts seemed really disinterested going through the motions. Anthony Daly and Donal Og Cusack.

Then Donal as usual went on his lip service spiel about the state of hurling for weaker counties.

To be honest when I heard the lads chat about 2 new league divisions it just sounded like the rearranging of chairs on the the titanic.

It occurred to me listening to them that hurling has already ‘lost’ Offaly for decades , Dublin has regressed. Hurling could really be on it’s arse in competitive terms in the next few decades. The rate it is going. Hurling seems very dependent on the next generation following on hurling out of love of the game. That is a very narrow foundation, emigration and lure of other sports could easily kill it. Especially if the sport is not competitive at o inter-county level. There are so few competitive hurling intercounty sides.

If Hurling lads in studio seem bored and disinterested in the second biggest national competition where is the game headed?

Then I thought something drastic has to happen. Is the OP’s idea the answer? Hard to know could go one of two ways-

A hurling organisation-

1) Focus minds and resources for the unique needs of hurling - and the overall game gets the attention it needs

Or

2) The focus is very narrow - making the game of hurling even more divided (in terms of standard) than it already is.

You would almost need a great organisational mind with absolute power to make and real change with a new Hurling organisation IMO. The problem is any GAA organisation is normally far too layered with democracy/committees and votes to get much done. No real change it is always slow.

evolvingtipperary101

Connacht GAA announced a raft of coaching education workshops. Over thirty around the counties outside of Galway. None of them hurling. All football.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739426#Comment_121739426

The problem with hurling is that it is not a game where a fella can just grab a ball and pick it up quickly, like football. Football is easier to play for people late to Gaelic Games, or have not played Gaelic games for while. That is without getting into competition from other sports.

If someone has no background in hurling, not from a hurling county. Or has no parents from a hurling county who are interested in the game, it is very hard to spark interest. The main interest in hurling is from those who already have a "grá: for the game - aka the traditional counties. The likes of Eoghan O'Donnell coming from Zimbabwe as a young lad, and falling into hurling by accident are rare.

Then if someone is from a weaker hurling county would they be really bothered in going to all that effort to play in front of one man and his dog, while suffering hidings of scores in matches.

The other problem with hurling. By the nature of the sport of hurling a weaker side struggles to "stay" in a game and it can be over as a contest in less than 20 minutes.

Plus the OP's call for hurling spilt comes at a time, where the camogie crowd are thinking of merging with the GAA. It has to make people ask would a hurling spilt really be beneficial? Look has what happened camogie.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741079#Comment_121741079

There's no comparison between hurling and camogie. The munster games are established as attracting nearly 30,000 on average. If Clare and Waterford had bigger stadia it would be more. The budgets of the Munster hurling teams combined alone would go a long way to outstripping the budgets of the whole League of Ireland Premier Division. Munster hurling championship is a runaway success in Ireland. In 2019, a dead rubber between Limerick and Tipperary attracted over 39,000 people. That makes the argument if there were more games they'd lose their appeal not very strong. Even when nothing is on the line, the product attracts.

It could definitely survive on its own. Create second and third divisions - when teams reach enough attendance figures and sales you could invite them up. If hurling had an organization that solely focused on its future, rather than dividing accounts with a bigger body more interested in another sport, it would only benefit it. There are too many football people in corporate power at the moment.

Camogie, at the moment, has nothing like those attendance figures. Nor does football. There's reason why GAAGO put Munster hurling behind a paywall.

Simply not making hurling education coaching courses available is not good enough. Not even one outside of Galway. 11 in Galway. And I argue, it's pointed. Hurling is under attack. Anybody that thinks different has their head in the sand. There are hurling teams in these counties, why is no coaching education being made available?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741454#Comment_121741454

Quick internet search there is a "Hurling Workshop" on the Dublin GAA site headed by Derek McGrath on April 2024 - Sports Ireland Campus

https://coaching.dublingaa.ie/workshops-courses/focus-footwork-flow-with-derek-mcgrath

There is also a list of "hurling workshops" that can be paid for online on the Dublin GAA site

https://coaching.dublingaa.ie/resources/hurling-workshop-videos

Then I found this "introduction to Gaelic Games coaching" course" from the GAA.ie

https://learning.gaa.ie/ICGG

https://learning.gaa.ie/sites/default/files/2024-01/Introduction%20to%20Coaching%20Gaelic%20Games_Manual.pdf

Kerry GAA had one last year for Hurling

https://www.kerrygaa.ie/hurling-coaching-course/

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It is hard for weaker Hurling counties to get a spark an interest, draw crowds. You mention Munster Hurling that is basically hurling, plus Galway and KK. With Wexford, Dublin, Antrim making up the numbers. It is hardly going to draw in neutrals when the pool is so small. I was at the Dublin v Tipp league match, over as a contest after about 20 minutes. Tipp could afford to take it handy. Dublin were given a lesson by a Tipp team barely in 1st gear. Those type of games are hardly going to draw new people to hurling.

Football draws consistently bigger crowds than Hurling in more counties that is just a fact of life, there are so few hurling games that are "big games", close games, compared to football where teams are well met in the league for example. If Hurling can not have a decent league competition that people are interested in what will this new Hurling organisation have to work with? Besides the Munster championship, and an AI semi/final?

The fact that Hurling is so localised in Munster is both a blessing and a curse, it well never spread beyond Munster properly because of "tradition". All a separate Hurling organisation would end up doing is rebrand Hurling IMO, come up with different names. Maybe a fancy new name and a logo? And not much will change beyond that IMO.

It is a massive job Hurling has that is almost impossible given the level of competition Hurling faces from other sports. Not only Football, but Rugby and Soccer. Hurling is a very niche sport, very specialised and there is little interest in beyond the traditional counties. Or small pockets of the weaker ones where some brave souls try to keep the flame alive. To be honest I am surprised Hurling has lasted as long as it has without any real growth.

Dublin sort of put down some shoots and have gone backwards at intercounty level, as Dalo said on League Sunday "we all would love to a full Croke Park for Dublin Hurling".

How is a separate Hurling organisation going to improve Dublin hurling that it has not already tried? Dublin Hurling had a more than two decade plan of investment, now despite that it has gone backwards again.

Unless there is some Hurling wizard who plans to lead this new Hurling organisation, nothing much will change only the names of competitions/logos. And Hurling will be lucky to be in exactly the same place it is now in 20/30 years time.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744497#Comment_121744497

You've totally missed the point. And set down unrelated points to the original point about Connacht. Not sure what Dublin has to do with that.

Also, Munster hurling is the most successful championship regardless of football, rugby, or soccer in this country. It does bigger numbers in relation to games all round. Munster rugby's biggest attendance last year was when they played South Africa at Supervalu Park - 41,400. The Munster hurling final had a bigger attendance.

The expense of hurling is a point but it's not a point in relation to Connacht educational workshops for hurling coaches. Not having those will certainly not modernise coaching and ensure it doesn't grow. That's the point.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784172#Comment_121784172

Dublin has an enomous amount to with it, money was thrown at Dublin hurling (over decades) the great hope to grow the game. It has gone backwards despite all the effort. Dublin basically are the sport of hurling main hope of growth. How is separate hurling body going to be able to try anything different at best?

I think you are deluding yourself on the state of hurling to be honest going on about the "Munster final" having a bigger attendance than Munster Rugby. If Hurling does not move beyond munster it is screwed, if there is any mass emigration in the future. It just doesn't have the depth. You need to focusing on participation rates and the like instead.

In my view a new Hurling Body would be defacto "Munster Hurling" by a different name.

How many hurling league matches as a neutral have you tuned into? Honestly the depth in Hurling is just not there. Compared to hurling at least in football you have teams of a similar level to give each other competitive matches to give each other a game. Hurling is on the brink, and those who flag wave Munster hurling, new hurling organisations and talk up hurling as the "national sport" are not looking at the reality of hurling. It is a niche sport, which only for a number of families who have a generational love for the game, it would have been long dead.

There seems to be a lot of delusion in hurling to be honest a pretence that if Munster hurling is OK, hurling is ok. And then not just yourself, but there is a mentality if you change the names of competitions/organisations it at least looks like something is being done. But that status quo remains.

A new hurling body will help nothing and hurling people would just end up looking for someone else to blame for the state of hurling, instead of the GAA IMO.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784903#Comment_121784903

Yeah, the championship with 30,000 a game (at least) is screwed alright...

The whole point of the thread is that hurling is not okay...

If a body were to grow it's own sport rather than fitting to the criteria of another sport it would grow exponentially.

Football people have too much power and grievance against hurling in a lot of counties - likewise Kilkenny hurling people and football in Kilkenny - for the future of hurling to be in its hands. Too one eyed. Simple things like a separate PRO for both codes don't exist in a lot of counties. Probably the only county who does it well is Galway - who have separate secretaries and other positions and so on for hurling and football.

A hurling body can exist and have a good relationship with the GAA but hurling needs to look after itself at his stage with its own executives, directors, and boards. There are people actively trying to kill off hurling county teams and its education of coaches and players. It's the only way for the hurling world to have power because it can't have a 50/50 chance in the GAA because the imbalance of power is too great. If there was a separate hurling body - things like no educational courses for hurling coaches outside of Galway in Connacht wouldn't happen. The hurling people in those counties wouldn't be ignored. As it is, there's too much cloak and dagger when it comes to funding. A hurling body that got funding direct from government would be better rather than waiting for its share from the football people in power.

Since 2000, the GAA have got well over €430m in government grants. How much of that has gone to hurling in connacht? I'd love to know...

evolvingtipperary101

....

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785322#Comment_121785322

Shocking numbers. Dublin and Limerick getting roughly €1 per head of population when Galway get €2 and Tipp €1.50

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785712#Comment_121785712

Per head of population? Yeah, that's how it works alright... mother a god.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785717#Comment_121785717

Those figures are I assume what comes from HQ because they are certainly not the full expenditure of each county. Development funding most certainly needs to have an element of population numbers because it will be aimed at things like schools.

Why should Tipp get more than Limerick or Down ?

Easy to kick Dublin but not so easy when the inequality is aimed at your own.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785741#Comment_121785741

Who is kicking Dublin? Where are you getting these ideas from?

Hurling playing population (2022):

Cork (25,600), Tipperary (14,260), Dublin (13,980), Galway (12,520), and Kilkenny (10,080) - Limerick (9,980)

If you're going to do it by playing population and teams Tipp should be getting nearly twice what Limerick get:

Football teams per 10k of pop: Football Teams per 10k Population (dwcdn.net)

Hurling teams per 10k of pop: Hurling Teams per 10k Population (dwcdn.net)

Per head of pop, indeed.

The process of deciding what amount of funding a county receives is complex and influenced by several factors. The main factors supposed to be considered include:

Geographical and Socio-economic Considerations: Counties or areas facing socio-economic challenges or those in rural locations might receive additional support to promote equality and ensure that Gaelic games thrive in all communities.

Performance and Achievement: While not always a primary factor, counties that have achieved significant success or shown considerable improvement in Gaelic games might receive additional funding to build on their success.

Development Needs: Counties with specific development needs, such as the construction or renovation of facilities, the need for more coaches, or special projects aimed at promoting Gaelic games, may receive targeted funding.

Youth and Grassroots Programs: The GAA places a strong emphasis on youth development and grassroots participation. Counties that propose detailed, effective youth engagement and development programs might receive more funding.

Strategic Initiatives: Counties that align with the GAA's strategic initiatives, such as promoting hurling in non-traditional areas or increasing female participation in Gaelic games, may be prioritized for funding.

Financial Health and Management: Counties that demonstrate good financial management and the ability to effectively utilize funding may be viewed more favorably in the allocation process.

The GAA's Central Council and various sub-committees, including those focused on finance and development, typically oversee the funding allocation process. The process is meant to be transparent, with counties required to submit detailed applications outlining their needs, plans, and how they intend to use the funding.

evolvingtipperary101

Easy to say. The proof will be in the pudding:

President Jarlath Burns: "I see myself as neither a football or a hurling man but a GAA man."

Hurling development will be a major focus of Burns' presidency, he says.

Burns: The senior inter-county game has become a financial noose around the necks of county boards. We have never properly stipulated what the amateur status means in the modern world. #GAA

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121812461#Comment_121812461

DoC Has voiced his concerns previously about jarlath burns as being a ‘football man’ and how this will negatively impact hurling……I take you would concur….?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814188#Comment_121814188

I don’t. I’ll see how it goes. Have to give the man a chance first

evolvingtipperary101

1 hurling match on TV this weekend and it's on at 1.15pm on Saturday

4 football games on TV in the better slots.

Hurling is the last round, deciding semi final pairings. Football, the second last.

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883424#Comment_121883424

It's poor alright, only caveat alot of the games were initially down for Sunday and got moved, I'm guessing its part of the tg4 agreement is to show 2 live games in Sunday regardless of code.

evolvingtipperary101

The Hurling Committee is composed of Terry Reilly, Brendan Cummins, Neil McManus, Brian Cody, Declan Bogue, Colm Nolan, Darragh Egan, Ciaran Bolger, Sean O’Gorman, James McInerney, and Willie Maher.

jeff bingham

What committee is that?
I am glad to see Brian Cody’s name on any list though. He has a wealth of knowledge to use and should be used.

I know Martin Fogarty has done good work with attempting to develop hurling in other counties. He spoke well on a few podcasts but it an extremely tough and thankless role.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995755#Comment_121995755

Martin Fogarty went around the north telling counties they could have the same type of status in hurling that Kilkenny's has in football if they worked really hard 🤣🤣 And then went to the national media bragging about it with this wry smile on his face. Nobody wants to be told that. They want to be told they can be as good as anyone. He was isolated up there in Croke Park and opted out then. So, no, I'd doubt he'd have any store with the new president or be on any national committees anymore.

https://x.com/offtheball/status/1777724400961192369

callaway92

Martin Fogarty while he means well, is not the progressive person you need to bolster the popularity of hurling. And my god he is ALL Kilkenny.

There has to be another way.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998350#Comment_121998350

A great Kilkenny man and coach who was very unlucky to never get to manage them. But not the man for that kind of role.

jeff bingham

I do understand your issues with Martin in that role and can see why, but honestly I doubt people were lining up for the job and he had a wealth of hurling experience.

evolvingtipperary101

Babs Keating must be reading the thread:
“I’m saying it loud and clear, the first thing hurling counties should do is break away from Croke Park and run their own association. Hurling is treated as a second class citizen and it is never going to get enough support in the current arrangement, because football dominates in terms of votes. Hurling counties should go out on their own and do so immediately,” Babs said in an interview with Gordon Manning.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022346#Comment_122022346

Was hurling not in a far worse state in the late 60's/70's and into the 80's until the emergence of Offaly and Galway who broke up the kK and Cork dominance………?