Voyager revisited - this time it’s Neelixy

Brian?

In a similar manner to DS9, I’m rewatching Voyager and will randomly post thoughts here.

Season 1 finished, thoughts:

Neelix is alright actually. I hate Tom Paris. The doctor is really good in season 1. Kes excellent

I remember the start being much weaker, but I actually think season 1 of Voyager is stronger than season 1 of DS9.

The conflict with the Kayzon was dropped too quickly. Now in season 2 it’s picked up again, but they have travelled months away from where they started. It’s like the writers realised they missed an opportunity.

The planet run by horny Belgians was the low point of the season, Beowulf a close 2nd. I enjoyed the gel packs getting sick episode a lot and the dead aliens on the asteroids was pretty good.

Anyway, feel free to disagree.

Evade

Voyager's main problem at the time was Star Trek over saturation. It retreaded some ground that DS9 and TNG had and felt a little samey.

Doc and Seven in later seasons are great and carry some otherwise mediocre episodes.

Stark

Neelix was the worst character by far imo. Tom Paris is okay, he matures a lot as the seasons progress and is generally inoffensive imo.

Kazons were probably the weakest part of early Voyager. Bad Klingon knockoffs, not very interesting and hung around for way too long. I liked the Vidians, would have preferred to see more of them. "Eye of the needle" was my favourite episode of the first season.

TheValeyard

Vivian's were brilliant because of how scary they were because of how they definitely would harvest you.

Kazon are Aldi Klingons

They should have taken a BSG approach and had the ship degrade over time, make much more of an issue about resources, and trying to survive, etc.

Edit

Vidians, I'm sure Vivian is great.

Inviere

"I remember the start being much weaker, but I actually think season 1 of Voyager is stronger than season 1 of DS9."

Completely agree, and I say that as a DS9 zealot. Voyager had a VERY strong start when compared with its peers. Overall, it is outclassed by the writing and characters of DS9, but again, it's a very good Trek show with a few limitations around character development and recycling of plots.

It's a Shakespearean masterpiece compared to Discovery though, which lowered the bar through the floor.

AMKC

I too agree the Vivian's were great and I loved there ships too. The Kazon were the Lidl Klingons of Star Trek. They should have been dropped after season one and the Vidian's should have been the main enemy then.

TheValeyard

Do feel Voyager nerfed the Borg though

The Hirogen also started off cool (and really tall) then also got nerfed.

Inviere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292177#Comment_121292177

Yeah Voyager is largely responsible for nerfing the Borg. I'd argue though, that process actually began in TNG.

I, Borg and Descent, while great episodes, really did a number on demystifying and turning the Borg into a somewhat generic baddie. The Borg never really recovered after that, and Q, Who/Best of Both Worlds were sadly peak Borg.

JayRoc

I watched Voyager when it first came out. Never rewatched it until about a year ago, as my recollections were ...not positive.

As far as the first season goes, I have to say I still consider it to be pretty woeful. DS9 season one is a masterpiece in comparison; in seven years, Voyager never had a single episode as good as Duet, to give a single example.

But overall, it's not as bad as I remember. The toe-curling Native American obsession of the 90s (panpipes and dreamcatchers, anyone?) aside, it hasn't dated too badly.

The Kazon were shite and were around too long. Chakotay and Harry Kim were boring. Torres was a drama queen. Neelix, jesus wept.

But Janeway was a complicated captain; human, imperfect but consistent in her actions.

Paris was interesting and morally ambivalent enough, at least early on, to make you invested in his redemption.

Tuvok, while a bit bland intitially, actually progressed as a character and gave us some bold new insights into the stereotypical Vulcan mindset in ways that were thought-provoking and not always complimentary.

Seven was, let's be honest, cheesecake brought in to boost the ratings. Jeri Ryan is a decent actor but you can absolutely understand why Kate Mulgrew was so pissed off at what happened.

The Doctor was probably the character that saw the most organic (pardon the phrase) development in his character over the series' run and became one of, if not the, most interesting of the regulars.

All in all, for someone who watches several TOS and TNG episodes every week and does a full DS9 rewatch every year or two, I very much doubt I will watch Voyager again soon. It'll probably be as long a break as last time, 25 years or so :)

Edit: The Vidians were a properly scary villain-concept. I don't know Vivian so I don't want to say how scary she is or isn't.

Oh yeah, Kes. Yawn.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292265#Comment_121292265

Would have loved if they left the borg as this ominous gigantic cube that travels through space assimilating and absorbing tech. Much more terrifying.

Brian?

I’m on season 2. Please, for the love of god, turn off the holodeck

Stark

Wasn't sure what you were talking about at first. Looked over the season 2 episodes and the only "holodeck episode" listed was the one where the Doctor starts having paranoid delusions that he's a real person stuck in a holographic simulation which was actually a pretty good episode. And then the traumatic memories of Neelix's erotic foot massage came back. 🤢

Marlay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121302260#Comment_121302260

Certainly wish it was turned off before Tom Paris's "authentic" Fair Haven. Had to switch off at that point.

Evade

Fairhaven is fine.

Stark

Fairhaven is worth it for the scene where Janeway is adjusting various "parameters" for the hologram she's attracted to and Mulgrew excellently delivers the line "one more thing: Delete the wife"

Brian?

The most surprising thing about "Fairhaven" for me, is that I have absolutely no recollection of it.

I keep seeing it referred to as a monstrosity, you'd think I'd remember something like that.

Beta Ray Bill

Voyager got off to a terrible start with a big plot whole.... Scarcity of water in the pilot.

Like if you can travel faster than light how can water be scarce? It's not possible.

Some of the species were great. Vidiian harvesters were brilliant concept. Malon dump ships were a good concept too, but again space is fast, there's load of places to dump. Hirogen were an interesting flavour of Klingonism. The Kazon was a rip off Klingon. Krenim Imperium was a good concept too.

The characters were lacking though. Borg were beaten, species 8472 was beaten to easily.

Overall I enjoyed it I suppose and going forward in the trek universe there is potential to revisit some of the species encountered with newer stories.

JayRoc

One of my main memories of Voyager before rewatching it was that the Kazon were an awful antagonist that clearly didn't work and weren't dumped for far too long.

The Vidians were a scary idea actually, to be fair.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306229#Comment_121306229

I liked the idea that the Kazon were basically medieval people with starships, they have no clue how any of it works since they were a slave race to the Trabe until relatively recently when Caretaker took place.

Also while just double checking MA I only just realised we never see a Kazon woman closely on screen.

monkeybutter

The problem with the show is the casting

The casting of Stewart on TNG seemed like madness at the the time but is a beautiful madness

He can make any dialogue just sing

In many ways casting is the most difficult thing to get right on a show and it is a dark art

Brooks is also sublime

Neither were even start trek fans, but they are both so classy

Mulgrew just isn't, none of the captains since have had that gravitas

Then the supporting cast too is weak when compared, although not bad

Now on the casting where they nailed it is the doctor. He just has it

On the story... It is hamstrung in that they need to keep moving on and at the same time are insular because if that, so it never develops, it's a bubble

So it starts off interesting and ends up boring

TNG is a little like that too, episodic, less of a story line

Ds9 is the best, development, a story that makes sense builds, great action, Colm meany, the ferengi, the klingons

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306229#Comment_121306229

The water thing, I give anything in the pilot of any series an pass

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306141#Comment_121306141

It's just typical American Oirish fare and dull filler tbh. Not going to win any cultural sensitivity awards but not as horrendous as "up the long ladder" either.

Greyjoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121289620#Comment_121289620

I've just finished a S1 rewatch of Voyager and this tallies pretty much with my reaction right down to "Eye of the Needle" being the standout episode of S1. I think Voyager had the most consistent first season of Trek shows. It avoids the "dud" episodes that plague most other first season Trek but by the same token it doesn't reach the same heights. Compare DS9's "Duet" with Voyager's "Jetrel" - both have a similar premise (legacy of war crimes) and both have primarily a two character performance. But Duet leaves Jetrel in the dust quality wise imho. I think one of Voyager's biggest flaws is the character concepts just aren't that interesting - going back to the Jetrel example Major Kira vs Neelix is a no-contest comparison about which character has more story potential.

JayRoc

One of the biggest issues with Voyager's overall arc is how little was done with the whole Maquis v Starfleet idea.

There was so much potential there that was wasted, with very occasional exceptions the crew became basically homogenised within a few episodes and the maquis were barely mentioned again.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308048#Comment_121308048

Mulgrew just isn't, none of the captains since have had that gravitas

I disagree

Pike has.

Brian?

Kes is going through Ocampa puberty.

It’s her only opportunity to have a child…….. did the writers not realise that this means the species would halve every generation? Ridiculous writing. The Ocampa in general just weren’t worth the effort

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121312899#Comment_121312899

I think they retconned it to if she didn't have one now she never could but if she had one now she could have more in the future.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121312808#Comment_121312808

You need to narrow down which pike

Stark

I thought Mulgrew had plenty of gravitas tbh. Not quite Picard level but far closer to the likes of Sisko than the likes of Archer/Burnham imo.

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121313163#Comment_121313163

We all know which one he's talking about.

ItHurtsWhenIP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121310713#Comment_121310713

YES! I remember Voyager being touted as being "The ship of conflict", with fed and maquis having to work together, 70,000 light years from home. Weekly tensions as resources dwindled ... yada yada yada ...

Then we got

😒

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121313267#Comment_121313267

Bruce greenwood has a commanding presence alright

Discovery was shite though

odyssey06

I was disappointed with how the Seska played out after a promising start.

I thought there was more mileage to the concept of - well she's a Cardassian but we need her on the ship to do X and she plays along. Could have brought an alternative view, similar to Seven of Nine later.

McFly85

Voyager had a terrible start. They bailed on the concept pretty much immediately.

We were given a situation where a crew was thrown 70000 light years from home with a skeleton crew and a load of maquis on board, how will they manage with everyone having their own agenda without any help from Starfleet?

Pretty easily as it happens. The maquis just become starfleet officers, even happy to wear the uniform. Also the first friendly alien they meet is an expert in delta quadrant trade.

After that it became TNG with different aliens.

It’s a concept I think would be executed much better now - but Star Trek shows outside of DS9 haven’t really shown any interest in challenging the ideal of Starfleet, which would really need to be one of the core themes to be interesting at all.

Evade

I don't think Voyager had a skeleton crew just not enough for a long duration mission.

I read a comment few years ago that having Janeway start off as the first officer and the captain being killed might have made things more interesting. Especially if Chakotay was much more experienced before leaving Starfleet. But then if the execution was the same it wouldn't have made any difference.

The scarcity of resources thing could have been done a lot better too. The only real scarcity should have been non replicatable things, like gel packs, and antimatter which would have to.be traded for.

McFly85

There was about 140 crew on Voyager I think?

Probably not bare bones but you’d imagine they’d have to work around the clock just to maintain it.

All of the stuff that was present in TNG was just sort of forgotten about for Voyager. The enterprise was regularly going to starbases to be fixed up after an encounter, allow the crew shore leave/rotation etc.

Voyager didn’t have any of that, so they would have to be able to run, maintain, and repair voyager themselves, which seems a very tall order. Even if they managed to scavenge the parts required for repairs they’re not shipbuilders.

I am very aware that this is nitpicky but it’s another example of something that could have been interesting about the show that was essentially just ignored. At most there was talk of replicator rationing and having Neelix cook instead but the ship apart from that was able to function exactly like it would in the alpha quadrant.

ZeroThreat

I would have preferred the 'evil' Janeway (with the black leather gloves) and the 'warship Voyager' throughout the series to the actual character we got . 😁

Inviere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365979#Comment_121365979

They lost some key personel in the Caretaker incident too didn't they? Cmo, Chief Engineer, etc

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121366152#Comment_121366152

Yeah. Some of the officers we saw on screen before their deaths (First officer, Helm, CMO) but I don't think we ever saw the original Chief Engineer.

Greyjoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121314180#Comment_121314180

I've started a Voyager rewatch and would have much preferred this version of Seska as someone the crew needed but couldn't entirely trust vs the ridiculous 'soap opera' villain we got - "I'm having your secret baby Chakotay!" 🙄

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365979#Comment_121365979

They landed on a planet for a refit once. That’s about the only thing I remember

Brian?

Half way through season 2, they’ve been travelling for months and they are still dealing with the Kayzon. Makes no sense.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384766#Comment_121384766

They cruise at a pretty low warp factor, 3 or 4 IIRC, so they haven't really gone that far. 70,000 ly in 70 years is 1000 ly per year so by now they've gone 500 or so, the Federation is about 8,000 ly across at this time. Logarithmic speed scales are hard to visualise.

EDIT: If Voyager could sustain its top speed as given by Tom in the 37's it would only take about 3 years to get home.

Inviere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385246#Comment_121385246

Plus, I think it was established that the Trabe empire was one of significant size. I do take the point though, that it seemed like the same few Kazon were around every corner. More could have been done to convey the illusion of travel, but I suppose costs dictated these things. The Kazon makeup etc likely wasn't cheap.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385313#Comment_121385313

Plus Janeway had to stop to investigate every little anomaly and coffee filled Nebula. Putting a scene in Caretaker about not being able to run the engines at high warp a lot and having to stop to let them cool down, for lack of a better term, would have done a lot to answer why they're always stopping and why it would take so long to get home.

Inviere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385328#Comment_121385328

True, but wasn't it established they'd need to stop regularly to look for supplies, foods, allies, etc?

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385340#Comment_121385340

I think so but coffee nebula aside it was mostly "hey look, that's weird. Let's stop for a week to look at it."

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385246#Comment_121385246

The most common speed is warp 7.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121386174#Comment_121386174

You're closer. In Pathfinder it's stated as warp 6.2 is their average. But I'm not sure if or how they accounted for the skips they got between Message in a Bottle and Pathfinder (Timeless, Night, and Dragon's Teeth.)

Stark

I'm pretty sure that has to be excluding jumps. Tried to work out what warp 6 was in terms of light speed from memory alpha but depictions of warp speed on screen are wildly inconsistent. As far as I remember from the show though, they were averaging about 1000 light years per season under their own steam (excluding jumps).

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385416#Comment_121385416

It's actually pretty logical imo. Just following the brute force approach of keep heading in the direction of Federation space and don't look around, most of the crew would have died of old age by the time they got there. They needed to look around for interesting anomalies/species etc. in order to find shortcuts.