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Is HVO the EV killer?

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    #92
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121279449#Comment_121279449

    Only in the same way that most electricity comes from natural gas, so an electric car is a fossil fuel car?



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    #93
    donkey balls
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260983#Comment_121260983

    As someone who worked in the transportation industry no drivers apart from council drivers, Do a 9 hour day on average it be a 12 hour day plus. Jaysus I remember doing 15 hour days back in the day.



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    #94
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,387 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280390#Comment_121280390

    Not to the same extent and especially not if you charge at night (or from solar during the day if you have it).

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #95
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280956#Comment_121280956

    6 of one, half dozen of the other.



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    #96
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,387 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It really isn't. There are times when our grid is almost entirely powered by wind.

    Anyway. There is zero chance of widespread hydrogen adoption by private cars (as opposed to HGV / LGV fleets or perhaps buses) or of a hydrogen refuelling network being developed.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #97
    mikeecho
    Registered Users Posts: 5,088 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282172#Comment_121282172

    That sounds like something someone might have said about EVs back in the early 2000s



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    #98
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,387 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    EVs didn't need a whole infrastructure set up from scratch to create the fuel and then distribute it, it was already there.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #99
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284823#Comment_121284823

    Infrastructure is already there for Hydrogen as well..some sources say existing fuel stations could be converted in the future for as little as 15% of the cost to build a new station. I cant find the article now but will post it when I find it.

    20 years ago I would never have thought that EVs would become so popular. But remember we are really only 15 years into this current cycle of EV take up. We also didnt have a charging infrastructure for Evs - agreed they didnt need a whole infrastructure from scratch but have you ever tried charging an EV using an ordinary granny cable as it was when the first EVs were released - it was extremely painful.

    EVs didnt really become popular until we had a charging infrastructure that supported fast charging - Id argue that we still dont have enough to support the EVs that we currently have on the roads. Dublin to Galway in a Corsa EV (range 320 kms supposedly) was an experience - had to stop half way. All chargers occupied and had to wait for another hour to charge. Then got to Galway and couldnt find an unoccupied charger - had to run a granny cable from the hotel to the car and do the same on the way back. A 3 hour trip each way turned into 6 hours. I desperately wanted it to work for me but it didnt. However it will work for us as a family now - I have my diesel and my wife only does 20kms each way to work. EVs are ideal in a 2 car family - one with a ICE.

    One of the reason the batteries were smaller 15 -20 years ago was because you couldnt charge a large battery quickly - there was very little infrastructure for fast charging.

    Whats to say hydrogen isnt the next step forward for transportation...every manufacturer is experimenting with H2 and while I cant predict the future its looking positive for hydrogen. Id prefer to fill up in minutes as would the majority of drivers and that could be H2s selling point.



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    #100
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,387 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Christ no.

    H2 is a tiny molecule, it leaks out everywhere. The idea of using existing natural gas networks to distribute H2... well, I remember what happened when Dublin Gas switched from naptha to natural gas (methane), which chemically eroded all of the hydrocarbon build-up in their pipes. Turned out that that was was what was stopping up tens of thousands of leaks... there's no hope with hydrogen which is both much more reactive and a smaller molecule.

    The whole fecking point of mass adoption of EVs is that they don't publicly charge, they charge at home at night. Which is incidentally when the Irish grid renewable % is at its highest. Anyone who bought a piece of crap quota filler EV (Stellantis for example) has a tale of woe but that's on them.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #101
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292846#Comment_121292846

    I understand H2 completely - I think at this stage we need to agree to disagree. I think its going to be the next big thing - maybe if boards doesnt have an update that wrecks it this thread will be findable in 15 years :)

    As for the stellantis thing - someone here has it in their signature "All the **** brands under one company" or something like that - they arent far off.

    The Corsa I had was a company car that we had to all drive so we could inform customers about it. My review wasnt exactly 5 stars to be honest!!!!Its a grand EV but no use if you have to stop halfway every long journey to charge when the range should have got me to my destination without a charge ie 183kms. I wasnt even doing the motorway speeds.

    Look as I said Im buying an EV next for my wife as it will be ideal for her and we have solar as well - its kind of a no brainer.



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    #102
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291655#Comment_121291655

    No one knows the future and all this has at least some possiblity of coming true.

    However there is no business case for hydrogen cars.

    It is impossible to produce hydrogen cheaper than electricity, and impossible to make hydrogen production sustainable. Never mind the transportation, storage and safety issues.


    EVs have none on these issues. Renewable, safe, cheap,with existing networks that just needs investment and expansion. When EVs are cheaper than ICE cars (5 years at the most) you're going to see a huge transition.


    There's a lot less FUD in the past few years. Everyone knows someone with an EV and EV owners are the biggest supporters of the technology.


    Hydrogen will have a place no doubt, but it won't be in personal transport.



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    #103
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,149 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    The only short answer here is the 2 letter one offered by @Cyrus

    None of this will ever happen. Have you guys promoting bio fuels and hydrogen looked at trends in EVs? I know Ireland is as usual a few years behind, but we typically do catch up quickly on new developments.

    Let me put my money where my mouth is and hopefully some of you will either concede the point or take me up on it. If the number of new cars sold in 3 years time (say 1st quarter of 2027) of either hydrogen or HVO will be more than 20%, I pay you €100. If they are not, you will pay me €50

    I bet you not a single person in here will take me up on that 😂



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    #104
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,387 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There's no such thing as a HVO car though??

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #105
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,285 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292955#Comment_121292955

    That at least 20% of new cars will be diesel in 3 years time? At the moment that seems relatively likely tbh.



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    #106
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,149 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293858#Comment_121293858

    That was not my bet. And as expected, over 12h later nobody has taken me up on it 😁

    Interesting though that (for shame) Ireland had the highest percentage of new diesel cars sold in the world back in 2008-2010 or so at about 80% while we all knew full well they caused cancer. And now people are cautiously saying it will be down to 20% soon.



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    #107
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,285 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293907#Comment_121293907

    Diesel cars are HVO cars though. Almost all new diesels are certified HVO compatible and even old non certified engines are compatible but manufacturers just have gone to the expense of testing and certification.

    I'd be quite confident that 20% of new cars in Q1 2027 will be hvo compatible.

    I think you're right about hydrogen though tbf.



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    #108
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293996#Comment_121293996

    Its only 24.44% compatible this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see that number fall below 20% in the next year



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    #109
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    To say that over 20% of new cars sold in 2026/27 will be diesel is a stretch.


    I wouldn't take that bet.



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    #110
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292955#Comment_121292955

    If the number of new cars sold in 3 years time (say 1st quarter of 2027) of either hydrogen or HVO will be more than 20%, I pay you €100. If they are not, you will pay me €50

    Ill take you up on it - but 3 years is too short - no way we`ll have H2 in 3 years. And also there wont ever be dedicated HVO vehicles. Most diesels its drop in despite whether manufacturers approve it or not.

    Now the H2 thing - Ive said all along 10-12 years H2 will be a thing so Ill take you up on your €100 bet -If theres 20% H2 in 11 years time you owe me €100 if theres not I owe you €100 - H2 includes Hydrogen fuel cells by the way :)



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