Is HVO the EV killer?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260862#Comment_121260862

Tis grand sure, just try not to think about the CO2 that was disturbed by tillage, or what was fueling the farm machinery that harvested it or the trucks that brought it to the processing plant and then the petrol station

It's alllllll powered by HVO, hopefully 😜

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260917#Comment_121260917

There is a huge problem with electrifying trucking. Trucks are typically on the road for 9 hrs a day which leaves 15 hours for recharging. Mercedes are estimating a range of 500km for their trucks and they have 600kWh batteries. Trucks only make money on the road so that means every day they will draw just less than 50kW while on rest periods on average. When I was in Cashel one night I saw about 30 trucks overnighting. That's 1.5MW of charging at the absolute minimum speed. That's the equivalent infrastructure for a thousand houses.

The reality is that bare minimum won't be enough and a place like Cashel might need 5-10 MW of power available. Similarly trucking companies who stable their vehicles will need huge substations.

Electrification of trucking won't happen in a big way unless the energy density of batteries improves in a major way to reduce the frequency of visits to chargers.

HVO on the other hand is ideal for trucking.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260547#Comment_121260547

The SEAI roadmap disagrees - its clearly full ev or phev? https://www.seai.ie/publications/Electric-Vehicle-Roadmap.pdf

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260222#Comment_121260222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260229#Comment_121260229

Never said I knew everything -If you actually bothered to read my post I said it was my opinion. But at least Im trying to discuss it rather than pipe in with off the cuff comments.

Lets hear your take on it as it is a "discussion" forum.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260983#Comment_121260983

Those Mercedes trucks you mentioned are designed for MCS charging systems, they can recharge 500km if range in 30 mins when connected to a 1.2MW charger

As for recharging 30 trucks overnight, that's the equivalent power of a single Ionity hub and there's already one of those in Cashel

I suspect the business case for truck charging is a lot easier since they can't just charge overnight on AC like us car owners

Yes, it's a big investment and I suspect it'll take a while to get off the ground, but there's already considerable interest from a lot of large fleet operators in battery powered trucks

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260921#Comment_121260921

Tis grand sure - also try not to think about the CO2 produced by the multiples of heavy machinery involved in mining lithium, digging it up out of the ground, trucking the ore to the processing and then trucking the batteries to vehicle manufacturers -- all powered by EV hopefully !!!!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261125#Comment_121261125

I'm pretty sure there's at least one train in there as well 😉

There's a company in Wicklow converting diesel mining equipment to electric, so there might be some hope yet

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261146#Comment_121261146

Why convert it to electric when we have HVO!!! Cheaper and no modifications needed.

To be completely honest heavy machinery / home and business heating / heavy industry is exactly where HVO should be targeted until there is enough of it out there for the ordinary driver to be able to buy it cheaper than diesel.

Look at Electric Picnic this year - everything was run on HVO - The Ploughing championships was the same and the Irish Open. Dublin airport switched all their ground support vehicles over to HVO last week. Dublin port did the same last year with their port vehicles.

Theres a place for it within heavy use fleets to substantially reduce their CO2 footprint in a very short time.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261056#Comment_121261056

I don't see any information in that document talking about the planned non electrified sales ban, the ban wasn't a proposal by the SEAI.

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261095#Comment_121261095

Well don't be so definitive about stuff in future. You speak as if you're clairvoyant. Do you know anything about EVs? apart that is from your opinion about them and their imminent demise.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261346#Comment_121261346

Never said I was clairvoyant. Ive been in the motor trade for coming up on 30 years now. Ive been at EV launches, gone through technical training , driven a lot of EVs and my next car will probably be an EV as I recently had solar fitted.

ive had one as company vehicle for 7 months. So you could say I know a small but about them.

My post was my own opinion based on what Ive read about and whats upcoming in the next decade or so within the motor industry. The truth is EV sales are starting to slow world wide as governments cut grants. Hydrogen technology will happen but its at least a decade away and thats when EVs will become obsolete.

Ive been following HVO for a while now and see it as a big step to reduce CO2 emissions.

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261520#Comment_121261520

Fair enough. I apologise for interpreting your original post incorrectly. I got the impression that you were dissing EVs unfairly. Let's hope you're correct about hydrogen etc cos we certainly cannot continue with our heads in the sand and pretend that it's all in eamon Ryan's head. Cheers

MojoMaker

Of course he was dissing EVs unfairly, but he certainly softened your cough @Greengrass53 😂

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261577#Comment_121261577

Not at all dissing them. My next car I purchase will be EV. But the reality is there will always be a place for ICE - theres no getting away from that fact.

And looking at them with the motor trade glasses on I still find myself on the fence about the huge wholesale adoption of EVs - just look at the amount of battery and battery related recalls on them. Thats not good. Then theres the fact that EVs need weeks of training to work on safely.

I recently had a discussion with a government department about this very fact and asked that they look at this because its only a matter of time before someone in a fast fit type setup gets one in for a service / brakes etc and doesnt know how to isolate the HV system and either cuts a cable or drills into a cable and dies.My suggestion was for EV servicing and repairs to have a similar setup to RECI or RGI and certs issued for working on them.

So forgive me if Ive come across as "dissing them" its not my intention at all. I just feel that as a whole we need to look at other alternatives as well and not put all our eggs in the one basket.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261520#Comment_121261520

Hydrogen transportation tech is like nuclear fusion, it always seems like it's more than a decade away and has been since the 90's. At this point it just doesn't make sense for private transport and is increasingly being marginalised for heavier transport by developments by developments in charging technology.

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261577#Comment_121261577

He wasn't. That's the whole point of my apology.

*Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt "😉

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261639#Comment_121261639

E

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261639#Comment_121261639

No. Forgive me for jumping in head first.

RoboRat

It's another step in the right direction, but is it an EV killer? I don't think so. It still produces emissions - for every 1,000 litres of diesel burned, you will produce 3.6 tonnes of greenhouse gas CO2, compared to just 195kg GHG CO2 for every 1,000 litres of HVO burned. If you run an EV on 100% renewables, there are no emissions (I know that most EVs are not run on 100% renewables). The average car using 100% HVO will still emit around 390kg of C02 annually (10L per 100km / 20,000 km p/a).

I know some will retort with the fact that making batteries is not environmentally friendly, but let's be honest, making cars in general is not environmentally friendly. HVO also has to undergo a hydrotreating process which is energy-intensive as it typically takes place between 300 – 390°C. It's also more expensive than diesel, and that will be a big detractor. It's also not widely available, so it will probably be used to supplement, rather than as the main fuel source.

Is it a good thing? Absolutely. Some people have a complete loathing for EVs and this gives a viable alternative. Anything that reduces C02 is a good thing IMO.

magicbastarder

i might have missed it in a link - what is the global capacity at the moment to produce this fuel without dedicating agricultural land to its production?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261841#Comment_121261841

More importantly the car running HVO is still going to be emitting NOX and other tailpipe emissions at the point of use. The move to zero emissions vehicles is as much about improvements to local air quality as it is reducing CO2 emissions. It's much better for us to concentrate CO2 at a central plant where we can install expensive carbon capture than it is for it to be burned in 1000s of mobile boxes sitting outside schools.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261841#Comment_121261841

It's interesting to get some stats, but you assume that an average car burns 10 litres per 100km - this is almost double what most modern economical diesel cars burn. I have a large 7 seater diesel and often see 5.0l per 100km so obviously somebody driving say a new Golf TDI will likely see much better economy. Assuming 5 l per 100km that's less than 200kg of CO2.

In order to better estimate the CO2 impact of EV's it's valid to use national power sector emissions. At 345 g per unit - or .345kg per unit, assuming 20 units per 100km (fairly realistic year round average inc winter months for most ev's) then an average EV CO2 is 1380kg if my maths are correct.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1290237/carbon-intensity-power-sector-ireland/#:~:text=Power%20sector%20carbon%20intensity%20in%20Ireland%202000%2D2022&text=In%202022%2C%20Ireland%27s%20power%20sector,%2FKWh)%20of%20electricity%20generated.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262459#Comment_121262459

I'm just going off what I could find online for average figures. A lot of diesel's aren't new though and a 2014 VW golf will do 7.6l/100km. However, the MPG really depends on how you drive, and driving at 80kmph will use around 30% less fuel than driving at 120kmph.

Up until last July, I was driving an 08 Mazda 6 2.0L Diesel and it was doing an average of 120km to 10L. Granted, I was driving around 90kmph on average, with very little stop/ starting, so I was driving quite efficiently.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262459#Comment_121262459

An argument often made is that while our grid is not currently completely renewable, our grid is getting greener and with time EVs will be 100% zero carbon.

When you try to make the same argument for HVO, it seemingly should be completely discounted because it is not currently completely carbon zero.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256319#Comment_121256319

That's 47% of new car sales are electric but that's only because the total volume of new cars sold has dropped significantly due to covid lockdown hangover reducing all car production. Therefore both electric and conventional cars have risen in price due to shortages. Most people are holding onto their used cars which are getting older and are not electric by and large.

The 2030 target has been pushed out to 2035 by the EU and ireland has been forced to comply. Even the 2035 target is not set either due to political and industrial opposition in Germany. Ireland does not produce cars so we will do what we are told to do at the end of the day

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262640#Comment_121262640

Using the data from beepbeep.ie for the period Jan-Sep 113,945 cars were sold in 2019, 118,353 cars have been sold in 2023. These numbers are quite easy to check so I'm not sure how you turn an increase of 3.87% into a claimed significant drop.

The 2030 target never progressed past the programme for government and was anyway compliant with the current EU proposed 2035 ban. Ireland's 2030 ban would allow hybrids and phev's to be sold up to the same 2035 deadline.

techman1

Half a million more people in the country since 2019 and new car sales are still lower than 2019 therefore the drop in new car sales is alot more significant

Hellrazer

The situation looks a whole lot worse when you look at Light Goods vehicles - we`re only at 3% EV Light goods vehicles sales for 2023 - this is what HVO should be targetting.

In my experience range anxiety is the single biggest factor in LGV drivers ie their range dropping with vehicle load.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261854#Comment_121261854

Not reliable as there is a lot of palm olive etc being fobbed off as waste oil.

Saw something this morning where EU are starting clamping down on non certified source, will have same success as drugs

.

Forecourt profits are not in the fuels

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262822#Comment_121262822

This seems like a difficult concept for you to understand, but 118,353 is a bigger number than 113,945. I'd also put severe doubts on your claim that the population has grown by 500,000.

Vicxas

Any theories on how hard it would be to retrofit ICE to use Hydrogen, seems like an easier idea than everyone bailing into EV's